ADVERTISEMENT

A Realistic Assessment of Where We Are

May 8, 2002
12
47
13
It seems that many have gone full on apocalypse when it comes to the Herd football program while others have moved to the "this is as good as it gets" camp. I think both misstate the picture.

When Holliday was hired, the Herd football program was in bad shape. Snyder had 4 losing seasons before cobbling together a 6-6 year and a bowl win. Fans were apathetic at best. Season ticket sales were nose diving. Holliday did indeed engineer a turnaround of sorts. His first three seasons were 5-7, 7-6, and 5-7. Then, we went 10-4, 13-1, and 10-3 and many, including me, thought the program had turned the corner. Not only were we winning but we were playing an exciting game of football. One of the main critiques of Mark Snyder was that he played the Jim Tressell way which was to play it safe, keep every game close, and then win in the end. That is not the game Herd fans have come to expect.

Unfortunately, "Doc ball" appears to be the same thing. Yes, we won this past weekend but our QB had a whopping 90 passing yards. 90. In an entire game. Hell, Leftwich had a lot of quarters with more yardage than that. It is boring football.

Worse, by every measure you can think of, Marshall has become simply a mediocre football team. We're not awful but we're not good. We don't beat teams that are favored to beat us by more than a touchdown. We sometimes lose to really bad teams. Even when we win, every win is an ugly win. Until the absolute last second, you are wondering whether we will manage to pull out a "W" and that happens in every single game. You rarely, rarely see blowouts. Just a plodding, methodical game. Someone said our average Sagarin during Doc's tenure was 86th. Yep. Mediocre. Our average G-5 rating was 21st. Yep. mediocre.

EXACTLY, like Mark Snyder's game except that we manage to win a few more each year.

If Doc is back for another season, and I fully expect him to be, I also expect you'll see a nosedive in season ticket sales which, ultimately, was what got Mark Snyder (and, for that matter, Ron Jirsa) relieved of his duties. That, apparently, is the only thing that gets the administration's attention.

We can be better than this. We don't have to accept mediocrity. We can demand a coach that will come in with new ideas and an offense that puts up 40+ per game. Yes, we'll lose him in 4-5 years if he is successful but it is unrealistic to expect that we can get a great coach and hang onto him for a long time. We ain't Oklahoma. Still, it is time to try something different because what we have now isn't working.
 
The MAC schedule when we first joined was a joke......
And we freaking dominated it!! We just moved up to IA from IAA and won the whole conference 5 out if 6 years and the East division 6 out of 6 years.

CUSA v3.0 is every bit as horrible and we have won the conference one time since the defections. In that time period we have built an IPF a weight room new locker rooms, awesome facilities rooms addition and we lose to the Buffalos and Eastern Michigan’s if this crap conference. I honest to goodness don’t know how many times it can be said to some of you, nobody is saying the NAC if 97-2004 is better than the current version if CUSA they are both putrid

But when we were in the MAC we won the conference consistently, won games against P5 opponents including beating the 6th ranked team in the country all in the road and were considered one of the top 5 G5 programs in the country. Now we lose to programs like Charlotte and MTSU and nobody considers us a dangerous G5 anymore. We had a P5 program choose us as the school to play to get them bowl eligible. We are so far down now that this same school said we will give you a 2 for 1 and play the next game at your place because they have zero fear they will lose.
 
If Memphis, Houston, UCF, etc. hadn't left CUSA I'm not sure we would have had 2013 and 14 to brag about, but certainly not 2015 where our success was totally a product of the weakest schedule since the move up in 1997.

And if we have been able to go with them we would be a totally different program and school.
 
It seems that many have gone full on apocalypse when it comes to the Herd football program while others have moved to the "this is as good as it gets" camp. I think both misstate the picture.

When Holliday was hired, the Herd football program was in bad shape. Snyder had 4 losing seasons before cobbling together a 6-6 year and a bowl win. Fans were apathetic at best. Season ticket sales were nose diving. Holliday did indeed engineer a turnaround of sorts. His first three seasons were 5-7, 7-6, and 5-7. Then, we went 10-4, 13-1, and 10-3 and many, including me, thought the program had turned the corner. Not only were we winning but we were playing an exciting game of football. One of the main critiques of Mark Snyder was that he played the Jim Tressell way which was to play it safe, keep every game close, and then win in the end. That is not the game Herd fans have come to expect.

Unfortunately, "Doc ball" appears to be the same thing. Yes, we won this past weekend but our QB had a whopping 90 passing yards. 90. In an entire game. Hell, Leftwich had a lot of quarters with more yardage than that. It is boring football.

Worse, by every measure you can think of, Marshall has become simply a mediocre football team. We're not awful but we're not good. We don't beat teams that are favored to beat us by more than a touchdown. We sometimes lose to really bad teams. Even when we win, every win is an ugly win. Until the absolute last second, you are wondering whether we will manage to pull out a "W" and that happens in every single game. You rarely, rarely see blowouts. Just a plodding, methodical game. Someone said our average Sagarin during Doc's tenure was 86th. Yep. Mediocre. Our average G-5 rating was 21st. Yep. mediocre.

EXACTLY, like Mark Snyder's game except that we manage to win a few more each year.

If Doc is back for another season, and I fully expect him to be, I also expect you'll see a nosedive in season ticket sales which, ultimately, was what got Mark Snyder (and, for that matter, Ron Jirsa) relieved of his duties. That, apparently, is the only thing that gets the administration's attention.

We can be better than this. We don't have to accept mediocrity. We can demand a coach that will come in with new ideas and an offense that puts up 40+ per game. Yes, we'll lose him in 4-5 years if he is successful but it is unrealistic to expect that we can get a great coach and hang onto him for a long time. We ain't Oklahoma. Still, it is time to try something different because what we have now isn't working.
Good post and a couple of thoughts:

1. I told a lot of people on this message board Bill Legg was not the problem. Doc fired one of his life long friends because his butt was on the line. The offense is still boring and now he has ruined a friendship. What does that say about him as a person?

2. Doc would do himself a lot of favors if he was out selling and promoting the program. I have felt all along he was always coaching at Marshall for his next job.

3. I have discussed this many times with mixed feedback from most but I have not liked how Doc has handled instate recruiting. He has had many chances to build relationships with the high school coaches and has failed.

4. Lastly. QB recruiting. If you want a high producing offense you need a QB. He lucked into one, and he keeps running Green on to the field and he is average at best.

Hamrick is in a really difficult position. Fans want Doc gone but firing a coach for winning 8 or 9 games a season sends a message to the next coach and some quality coaches may not apply because of expectations. The funny thing is Doc was running around Bill Stewarts back complaining about his offense and Bill was fired for 9 win seasons and now the tables are turned.

Just by reading the AD's response to fans not showing up its my guess is Doc will be here until this contract runs out or he leaves.

2.
 
Last edited:
I, for one, will not support this football program again until Holliday and staff are gone. Done pissing money into the wind, oh, and let's not forget Haaaammmmmrick, until both of those fools are out.......I'm out
 
4. Lastly. QB recruiting. If you want a high producing offense you need a QB. He lucked into one, and he keeps running Green on to the field and he is average at best.

Hamrick is in a really difficult position. Fans want Doc gone but firing a coach for winning 8 or 9 games a season sends a message to the next coach and some quality coaches may not apply because of expectations. The funny thing is Doc was running around Bill Stewarts back complaining about his offense and Bill was fired for 9 win seasons and now the tables are turned.

Just by reading the AD's response to fans not showing up its my guess is Doc will be here until this contract runs out or he leaves.

2.
Agreed. I have reached the conclusion that the game of football has evolved to the point that you can't be a really good team without having a top notch QB.
 
Agreed. I have reached the conclusion that the game of football has evolved to the point that you can't be a really good team without having a top notch QB.
agree 100% I made a similar post on here some time ago. Every time we have been good( conference champ and ranked) at the FBS level we have had a good QB. Chad, Byron and Cato.
 
Good post and a couple of thoughts:
1. I told a lot of people on this message board Bill Legg was not the problem. Doc fired one of his life long friends because his butt was on the line. The offense is still boring and now he has ruined a friendship. What does that say about him as a person?

2. Doc would do himself a lot of favors if he was out selling and promoting the program. I have felt all along he was always coaching at Marshall for his next job.

Hamrick is in a really difficult position. Fans want Doc gone but firing a coach for winning 8 or 9 games a season sends a message to the next coach and some quality coaches may not apply because of expectations. The funny thing is Doc was running around Bill Stewarts back complaining about his offense and Bill was fired for 9 win seasons and now the tables are turned.

Just by reading the AD's response to fans not showing up its my guess is Doc will be here until this contract runs out or he leaves.
2.

It's pretty apparent now that most of us (myself included) who were clamoring for Legg to get axed were barking up the wrong tree. I was wrong, and I can admit that.

As for Doc, I would say the opposite is true in regards to "coaching for his next job"... I think he likes it here, he's happy and most importantly he has gotten comfortable. Go to a bowl game and there are no repercussions or expectations to do better. And that is a huge problem going forward.
 
The honest easy fix would be for Hamrick to walk into Doc's office and give him an ultimatum. Either start running the team like we did in 2013-2014 or retire. No more 1950s B1G watered down Don Nehlen ball control football. Doc has shown that he is capable of having a team in the top10 nationally in offense. @RhinoD is right. Doc is complacent because there is no pressure on him to perform at a high level. Just a good enough level.

I have to be honest. The thought of Mike Hamrick making the hire of the next HC scares me to death. You've see the Goebbel comment and heard echos of that from Mike in previous seasons. Instead of going out and hiring a young coach or a up and coming OC that is looking to make a name for themselves and climb the coaching ladder he will look to guy like Brad Lambert. Hamrick will go with the comfortable and discounted pick.

A lot of fans want another Pruett or Doc type in terms of commitment to Marshall. They want a guy who will want to stay when in reality that isn't going to happen. At least not someone that is going to get us back on top. There are no Pruetts out there. No P5 coordinators coaching at a high level P5 that are looking to come home. The closest thing we have is Byron and that is never going to happen.

We're going to need a HC that's a 3-4 year max guy. The kind of guy that's looking to get to the next level because that guy is going to go all out trying to get Marshall football as high as he can so that his profile and resume will be as attractive as it can. Which will lead to attracting other candidates upon his departure.

It's time for Marshall to stop playing it safe.
 
agree 100% I made a similar post on here some time ago. Every time we have been good( conference champ and ranked) at the FBS level we have had a good QB. Chad, Byron and Cato.
And to me Doc has put his faith in Green and he is NOT the answer. The question is will Doc go out and find someone else or will he ride that horse. My bet is he will not change.
 
It's pretty apparent now that most of us (myself included) who were clamoring for Legg to get axed were barking up the wrong tree. I was wrong, and I can admit that.

As for Doc, I would say the opposite is true in regards to "coaching for his next job"... I think he likes it here, he's happy and most importantly he has gotten comfortable. Go to a bowl game and there are no repercussions or expectations to do better. And that is a huge problem going forward.
I think he likes it here but he is still trying to find a way back to Morgantown
 
The honest easy fix would be for Hamrick to walk into Doc's office and give him an ultimatum. Either start running the team like we did in 2013-2014 or retire. No more 1950s B1G watered down Don Nehlen ball control football. Doc has shown that he is capable of having a team in the top10 nationally in offense. @RhinoD is right. Doc is complacent because there is no pressure on him to perform at a high level. Just a good enough level.

I have to be honest. The thought of Mike Hamrick making the hire of the next HC scares me to death. You've see the Goebbel comment and heard echos of that from Mike in previous seasons. Instead of going out and hiring a young coach or a up and coming OC that is looking to make a name for themselves and climb the coaching ladder he will look to guy like Brad Lambert. Hamrick will go with the comfortable and discounted pick.

A lot of fans want another Pruett or Doc type in terms of commitment to Marshall. They want a guy who will want to stay when in reality that isn't going to happen. At least not someone that is going to get us back on top. There are no Pruetts out there. No P5 coordinators coaching at a high level P5 that are looking to come home. The closest thing we have is Byron and that is never going to happen.

We're going to need a HC that's a 3-4 year max guy. The kind of guy that's looking to get to the next level because that guy is going to go all out trying to get Marshall football as high as he can so that his profile and resume will be as attractive as it can. Which will lead to attracting other candidates upon his departure.

It's time for Marshall to stop playing it safe.
I have come to the conclusion that Hamrick is the bigger issues in terms of football. I just don't see him telling Doc to step it up. And, if he were picking a new coach, I am not sure he alone is the one to do it. I don't see him hiring consultants or having a committee or going to top coaches for advice. If I am hiring a coach, I am asking to get 5 mins on the phone with a Dabo , Saban, etc. to say how have you evolved and what should I be looking for in a coach and how is the game changing and could you give me some names of guys who might be interested in the job here. I just don't see him doing that.
 
As much as we all thought Snyder sucked, he and Doc are basically equals in their coaching ability. Synder had much harder schedules, Doc has benefited mightily from a weak conference.

We've never played in a great conference, but many years we dominated those weaker teams, which made us all feel better. Hey our conference stinks, but we're winning by 30 against those weaker teams. We beat a 6-6 OHIO team by 2 at home, we beat a horrible 1-11 ODU team by 14 at home, we beat a 3-9 Rice team by 13....my point is this year and in many of Doc's year we squeak by teams that we should be dominating and we always seem to lose a game on the road to a team we have no business losing too from a talent perspective. This year it happened 2x and cost us dearly.

Next year is a 7-5 year. PITT and Boise are probably losses, and can we beat ECU on the road? And you can count on at least a few conference because you know we'll lay an egg @ FIU or WKU.

Bottom line, there is absolutely no excitement around the program. Its stagnant, there is a ton of apathy from fans, and I dont see how that changes without a change at the top. Doc's boring, his teams are boring, and that all equates to stagnation. Hell, MU basketball out of one year hasn't been great-great under DD, but his brand of ball is fun to watch and he's a charismatic person so people are excited and attendance has been good. Total opposite of Doc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: W-S HerdFan
Same old buzzwords and slogans. Nothing concrete. “Step it up” “try harder” whatever.

And, if we could get five minutes with Saban, and we probably could due to his state ties, he would tell us, being a man that actually understands football, to keep the coach we have.

This sad fan base is probably one more so-called “mediocre” (AKA WINNING) season away from going down the “9-3 is not acceptable” path. The path of idiots. The path that destroys programs.
 
Same old buzzwords and slogans. Nothing concrete. “Step it up” “try harder” whatever.

And, if we could get five minutes with Saban, and we probably could due to his state ties, he would tell us, being a man that actually understands football, to keep the coach we have.

This sad fan base is probably one more so-called “mediocre” (AKA WINNING) season away from going down the “9-3 is not acceptable” path. The path of idiots. The path that destroys programs.

Your posts are like John H, dull, unimaginative, repetitive, underachieving and not worth the time to read.
 
Same old buzzwords and slogans. Nothing concrete. “Step it up” “try harder” whatever.

And, if we could get five minutes with Saban, and we probably could due to his state ties, he would tell us, being a man that actually understands football, to keep the coach we have.

This sad fan base is probably one more so-called “mediocre” (AKA WINNING) season away from going down the “9-3 is not acceptable” path. The path of idiots. The path that destroys programs.

I simply don't understand the blind allegiance to this staff... Are you happy with the football product MU is currently putting on the field? If you are, that's all we need to know... If not, what changes would you suggest to get the program to a championship level on at least a semi-regular basis?

Doc is currently 78-50 as a head coach... Meaning we have won 61 percent of our games with him at the helm. Take away wins over I-AA teams and he is 71-50 for an average of 7-5 yearly. That's the definition of mediocre.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HuntersvilleHerd
Are you happy with the football product MU is currently putting on the field?

Happy? Well any fan of any team in any sport wants to win every game. But I can remember when we did not have a team. I can remember when the program almost shut down (no, not like in the fictional movie, in the mid 80s when Fairfield was half torn down and the campus far-lefts had their knives out). I can remember playing East Tenn. State and thinking it was a big deal. I can remember when I-AA was a thing, and then the lowly MAC.

If not, what changes would you suggest to get the program to a championship level on at least a semi-regular basis?

Since we currently are playing at a “championship level” I do not understand your question. Well, actually I do. Your question actually is “how can Marshall win every game, with ease?”

I don’t know, other than play in the lowly MAC of the 1990s? Play as a de facto I-A team in the I-AA of the 1990s? Have a hall of fame level WR be persecuted by the Kanawha court house gang and fall through a loophole in the NCAA regs into our laps?

In the real world, sports are great because sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. In the delusional childlike world, you want the “good guys” to win every game and celebrate every week. That is what wrestling is for.
 
Happy? Well any fan of any team in any sport wants to win every game. But I can remember when we did not have a team. I can remember when the program almost shut down (no, not like in the fictional movie, in the mid 80s when Fairfield was half torn down and the campus far-lefts had their knives out). I can remember playing East Tenn. State and thinking it was a big deal. I can remember when I-AA was a thing, and then the lowly MAC.

Since we currently are playing at a “championship level” I do not understand your question. Well, actually I do. Your question actually is “how can Marshall win every game, with ease?”

I don’t know, other than play in the lowly MAC of the 1990s? Play as a de facto I-A team in the I-AA of the 1990s? Have a hall of fame level WR be persecuted by the Kanawha court house gang and fall through a loophole in the NCAA regs into our laps?

In the real world, sports are great because sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. In the delusional childlike world, you want the “good guys” to win every game and celebrate every week. That is what wrestling is for.

I know reading comprehension is hard, and lack of context on the internet makes it more difficult, but at no point did I say "win every game" and certainly I, nor anyone else on here with a rational mind, thinks MU will or should win every game "with ease."

We all (well almost everyone on here) understands that there are going to be rough years occasionally. Kids get hurt, recruits don't pan out, etc., such is life.

So to rephrase... What needs to happen in the current football climate for Marshall to win more than one conference title a decade?
 
I think it’s safe to assume we all want winning records and bowl wins every year. But the problem is that’s all it’s been for a while. It’d be one thing if we were going 8-4 every year in the SEC, but this is C-USA.
 
I may be wrong but I think back in the MAC days, BG, Miami, Toledo and WMU were all ranked at some point during our tenure.
I don’t think many CUSA teams have been ranked since the realignment in 2013.
Not an advocate for the MAC just pointing out it was a pretty darn good league back in the day.
 
I know reading comprehension is hard, and lack of context on the internet makes it more difficult, but at no point did I say "win every game" and certainly I, nor anyone else on here with a rational mind, thinks MU will or should win every game "with ease."

We all (well almost everyone on here) understands that there are going to be rough years occasionally. Kids get hurt, recruits don't pan out, etc., such is life.

So to rephrase... What needs to happen in the current football climate for Marshall to win more than one conference title a decade?

Don't even engage Sam in conversation. He will twist your words and make things up the entire time.

You can say, "we should have more than one conference championship in over 10 years," and he quotes you as saying, "we should win a conference championship, top 25 ranking and at least one Heisman candidate EVERY YEAR."

He's either truly an idiot or he is legitimately crazy. You pick.
 
In other words, you no rebuttal, so you name call. Sad.

But to the supposed question, we all understand that the keyboard warriors have nothing to offer but buzz words and meaningless DD style slogans.

And, BTW, no it doesn’t matter if we were an SEC level school who went 8-4 against an SEC schedule, or a CUSA level school ah went 8-4 against a CUSA schedule, or whatever. Conferences, in football, are made up of teams trying to be at the same level as one another.

The football “climate” is just fine. There are not enough Big Green donors and not enough people willing to pay the $$ required to attend the games, but other than that we have the right coach and the right AD to make things go well. Which is why we continue to play at the high level (by CUSA standards) we play at currently.
 
I may be wrong but I think back in the MAC days, BG, Miami, Toledo and WMU were all ranked at some point during our tenure.
I don’t think many CUSA teams have been ranked since the realignment in 2013.
Not an advocate for the MAC just pointing out it was a pretty darn good league back in the day.
The MAC did get better after we arrived. The first three years we were there it was average at best. By the time we left ,as you have correctly pointed out ,Toledo and Miami each broke into the Top 25.
 
The MAC was really bad at the bottom but there were some ok teams and good teams in the middle and at the top. When we first arrived Miami and Toledo had good teams. Miami was in the top 25 when we played them in 99. They also had a guy that was pre season heisman talk in Travis Prentice.
Toledo won 10 games the year we played them in the first MACC.

so it wasn’t just Marshall that suddenly changed the conference. We did a lot of it but not all of it.
 
In other words, you no rebuttal, so you name call. Sad.

But to the supposed question, we all understand that the keyboard warriors have nothing to offer but buzz words and meaningless DD style slogans.

And, BTW, no it doesn’t matter if we were an SEC level school who went 8-4 against an SEC schedule, or a CUSA level school ah went 8-4 against a CUSA schedule, or whatever. Conferences, in football, are made up of teams trying to be at the same level as one another.

The football “climate” is just fine. There are not enough Big Green donors and not enough people willing to pay the $$ required to attend the games, but other than that we have the right coach and the right AD to make things go well. Which is why we continue to play at the high level (by CUSA standards) we play at currently.
If doc were coaching in the southern conference he woukd be 7 and 5 with the same level of support we have now
 
Hold on guys. Time for the Defenders of the Faithful - Stowers and Perkins to give us their “opinions” on the aforementioned posts in this thread. I am sure they will agree 100% with all points of view.
 
Hold on guys. Time for the Defenders of the Faithful - Stowers and Perkins to give us their “opinions” on the aforementioned posts in this thread. I am sure they will agree 100% with all points of view.
If my real fast Google search is correct Docs contract is up 6/30/21 means he only has one more season and its done(unless Hamrick extends). Considering Doc is winning 8 games a season I think everyone can take one more season.
 
If my real fast Google search is correct Docs contract is up 6/30/21 means he only has one more season and its done(unless Hamrick extends). Considering Doc is winning 8 games a season I think everyone can take one more season.

Are you suggesting a put up or shut up season?... If so, what are the terms?... Next year almost the entire offense returns, but we have some major holes to fill on defense. How many wins is enough next year for Doc to earn an extension if it's a make-or-break year?

(My attitude has been misconstrued apparently, so for the sake of clarity, I find this to be a very interesting point and topic. Not trying to incite you or anyone into trolling/flaming/or any other message board nonsense.)
 
Are you suggesting a put up or shut up season?... If so, what are the terms?... Next year almost the entire offense returns, but we have some major holes to fill on defense. How many wins is enough next year for Doc to earn an extension if it's a make-or-break year?

(My attitude has been misconstrued apparently, so for the sake of clarity, I find this to be a very interesting point and topic. Not trying to incite you or anyone into trolling/flaming/or any other message board nonsense.)
I am hoping the rumor floating around on the boar about the Board having to approve contract extensions is true. At some point, you have to win the conference. IF not, thanks for your service and here is a Cabelas gift card. Enjoy fishing with Nehlen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RhinoD
Are you suggesting a put up or shut up season?... If so, what are the terms?... Next year almost the entire offense returns, but we have some major holes to fill on defense. How many wins is enough next year for Doc to earn an extension if it's a make-or-break year?

(My attitude has been misconstrued apparently, so for the sake of clarity, I find this to be a very interesting point and topic. Not trying to incite you or anyone into trolling/flaming/or any other message board nonsense.)
Im just saying It appears Doc will only be here one more season, and would assume the AD and President would all be cleaned out if they tried to give him a new contract. The problem is going to into a season with no new contract it means taking a hit on recruiting and honestly it appears recruiting is going slow right now
 
  • Like
Reactions: RhinoD
ADVERTISEMENT