A religious question

[caliherd]

Since we have a ton of religious based posts on this board I thought I would put a question out there that has puzzled me for several years.

Understand I am not trying to be funny or make fun of anything. It’s just some questions I have had in my mind for years.

I know a lot of you guys are very well versed in the Bible and Keep is a preacher so I’m anxious to see the answers.

Can someone tell me why there is a devil? Everything I have ever heard is that God is the supreme being of the universe so why did he create the devil and once he did create it why did he not just cause him to cease to exist when he did the rebellion against him. Why instead did he create hell and put the devil in it where he has been able to do all of his evil stuff.

Second part of the question why were we given free will. Why would God give us something that would allow us to become so corrupted that could lead us when we die to an eternal life in torment in Hell.

Hell being a place that he created to put a creature that he is more powerful than who lead a rebellion against him that he should have just eliminated from the planet instead of putting him somewhere where he could corrupt man. Why would God take that chance with beings he created?

Just something I have pondered over the years and would like to hear our deeply religious posters opinions.

 

[Dreh_Nagi_HC_IM]

I'm not sure why there's a place called Hell, but based on what I've read over the years on this forum, I have no doubt that I'm likely going to Hell.

 

[caliherd]

I'm not sure why there's a place called Hell, but based on what I've read over the years on this forum, I have no doubt that I'm likely going to Hell.

Ok Michigan I laughed hard at that one.

According to the definitions I have seen on Herdnation I believe with the exception of 1 or 2 people on here we are all on the bullet train to hell.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

For the lulz.

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

Sorry I don't have time today to answer in my own words so here are a couple links that may be helpful.

On Satan:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/demons-servants-satan/

On Free Will:

Popular
http://www.reformation21.org/articles/do-we-have-free-will.php

Technical
https://www.monergism.com/free-agency

Video:

 

[marshallisqbu]

The book “The Shack” was essentially written from a religious perspective to answer your questions. I’m not overly religious but did enjoy the read, and read it at a time when I needed some guidance in my own life looking for the answers to the questions you propose.

 

[countryroads89]

Why would God give us something that would allow us to become so corrupted that could lead us when we die to an eternal life in torment in Hell.

Just in case anyone is wondering, I'm not sweating it (eternal torment in hell). Pun intended.

 

[caliherd]

The book “The Shack” was essentially written from a religious perspective to answer your questions. I’m not overly religious but did enjoy the read, and read it at a time when I needed some guidance in my own life looking for the answers to the questions you propose.

Thanks qbu I’ll check it out.

Keeper I’ll read those links when I get home thanks for providing.

You know country I am not a very religious guy myself. I’m not an atheist but I’m far from a practicing Christian. I haven’t went to church in several years. I think the biggest thing that has lead me to where I am from a religious aspect after growing up in a religious household is the no logic part of it.

These two questions that I have posed above are some of the many things I can’t wrap my hands around when it comes to religion.

Why would an all powerful good deity create an almost equally powerful evil deity. Then let that evil deity reign over beings that were created in the good deity's image. Plus giving them free will allows those beings to be even more persuaded to the bad side. If you control everything and you are the supreme being why did you even make this an option.

 

[countryroads89]

Thanks qbu I’ll check it out.

Keeper I’ll read those links when I get home thanks for providing.

You know country I am not a very religious guy myself. I’m not an atheist but I’m far from a practicing Christian. I haven’t went to church in several years. I think the biggest thing that has lead me to where I am from a religious aspect after growing up in a religious household is the no logic part of it.

These two questions that I have posed above are some of the many things I can’t wrap my hands around when it comes to religion.

Why would an all powerful good deity create an almost equally powerful evil deity. Then let that evil deity reign over beings that were created in the good deity's image. Plus giving them free will allows those beings to be even more persuaded to the bad side. If you control everything and you are the supreme being why did you even make this an option.

Valid points. I'm not trying to persuade anyone to believe a certain way. I hope everyone reaches their own conclusions with logic and rational thought, without dogma or pressure. I am not criticizing anyone's beliefs either. I attended church regularly for a number of years and read the Bible, cover to cover, a few times. There are too many inconsistencies and contradictions for me to bestow my "faith" in.

I really wouldn't classify myself as an atheist, because that would mean I have concluded there is no god. I believe there could be, I just don't believe he/it is as described in the Bible. So, I suppose to most accurately classify myself, I would say I am agnostic (literally meaning without knowledge (of a deity)).

 

[sistersville]

You all know the devil was once the most beautiful angel in Heaven. He wanted to be God. He had one third of the angels who backed him all kicked out of heaven along with Satan.. This is in the bible but I'm writing off what I Think I know. I personally believe the angels are now demons led by Satan. The bible says that Satan goes around like a roaring lion devouring anyone he can. HeLL was created FOR the devil and his angels. God wants no one to go to He'LL He doesn't send a person THERE you send yourself. Your whole time on earth is like a vapor but eternity is forever. He gives you free will. Humans would not want it any other day.

 

[caliherd]

I get that sisters and I’m trying to figure out why. Why did God create the devil and why did he give the beings he created a free will that could possibly get us sent to Hell.

 

[extragreen]

I get that sisters and I’m trying to figure out why. Why did God create the devil and why did he give the beings he created a free will that could possibly get us sent to Hell.

Why is an answer to your questions important to you?

 

[countryroads89]

You all know the devil was once the most beautiful angel in Heaven. He wanted to be God. He had one third of the angels who backed him all kicked out of heaven along with Satan.. This is in the bible but I'm writing off what I Think I know. I personally believe the angels are now demons led by Satan. The bible says that Satan goes around like a roaring lion devouring anyone he can. HeLL was created FOR the devil and his angels. God wants no one to go to He'LL He doesn't send a person THERE you send yourself. Your whole time on earth is like a vapor but eternity is forever. He gives you free will. Humans would not want it any other day.

So you believe in angels and demons? Have you ever seen either? Have you ever been helped or harmed by either?

 

[mlblack16.]

I get that sisters and I’m trying to figure out why. Why did God create the devil and why did he give the beings he created a free will that could possibly get us sent to Hell.

God didn't originally create man with a predestined designation to Hell. It wasn't until the fall of man committed in the Garden of Eden when God cursed Adam and Eve for what they had done. From that moment on, man was to be born into sin and must seek God for salvation.

That's the basics at least. I know Rev. Fever will be on here shortly to school everyone, but that should hold you over till then.

 

[murox]

Christian mythology is no different than the mythology of the thousands of religions that have existed throughout history. Written by unenlightened people trying to explain the unknown world around them. Passed down for millennia and instilled in the minds of children who aren't old or wise enough to thoroughly process what is being told to them.

Luckily for humankind, we are currently living in a time where religions of all kinds are being rejected. Superstition and stories of supernatural beings are being forced to fringe groups around the world.

 

[extragreen]

Christian mythology is no different than the mythology of the thousands of religions that have existed throughout history. Written by unenlightened people trying to explain the unknown world around them. Passed down for millennia and instilled in the minds of children who aren't old or wise enough to thoroughly process what is being told to them.

Luckily for humankind, we are currently living in a time where religions of all kinds are being rejected. Superstition and stories of supernatural beings are being forced to fringe groups around the world.

You have no clue what you're talking about. zero.

 

[murox]

You have no clue what you're talking about. zero.

Oh yeah, greed? Which part is wrong? Even in puritanical America, people are abandoning religion in droves. In Europe it's practically non-existent. Of course it still exists and is thriving in third world sh!thole countries, but it is very rare to find an educated person who believes in your archaic theology, even in the bible belt. You have to completely suspend reality and forgo logic to accept the stories of the bible as anything but fiction.

 

[i am herdman]

Oh yeah, greed? Which part is wrong? Even in puritanical America, people are abandoning religion in droves. In Europe it's practically non-existent. Of course it still exists and is thriving in third world sh!thole countries, but it is very rare to find an educated person who believes in your archaic theology, even in the bible belt. You have to completely suspend reality and forgo logic to accept the stories of the bible as anything but fiction.

I am not sure I agree with that. There are still throngs of Catholics in Europe. Just watch a visit by the Pope. I live in the South and there are large numbers of folks that attend church and at least identify with church or religion.

 

[extragreen]

Which part is wrong?

All of it.

 

[murox]

I am not sure I agree with that. There are still throngs of Catholics in Europe. Just watch a visit by the Pope. I live in the South and there are large numbers of folks that attend church and at least identify with church or religion.

I think a lot of non-believers like the structure and overall message that Christianity teaches. One of my best friends is catholic and attends mass regularly. He sends his kids to St. Joe and even tithes. He's just as atheist as me. I think a lot of people identify culturally as adherents to religion but don't actively practice.

 

[extragreen]

I think a lot of non-believers like the structure and overall message that Christianity teaches. One of my best friends is catholic and attends mass regularly. He sends his kids to St. Joe and even tithes. He's just as atheist as me. I think a lot of people identify culturally as adherents to religion but don't actively practice.

That's nothing but pure assumption based on ONE of your friends. You were mentioning logic?

 

[murox]

That's nothing but pure assumption based on ONE of your friends. You were mentioning logic?

No, I gave an example of one of my friends. There are countless polls and articles about people abandoning religion all over the world. I read a couple weeks ago that ZERO Icelanders under 25 believe that god created the universe. That's a pretty damning statistic for religion. The speed at which people abandon religion continues to accelerate.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...elieve-god-created-the-universe-a6816226.html

 

[extragreen]

No, I gave an example of one of my friends. There are countless polls and articles about people abandoning religion all over the world. I read a couple weeks ago that ZERO Icelanders under 25 believe that god created the universe. That's a pretty damning statistic for religion. The speed at which people abandon religion continues to accelerate.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...elieve-god-created-the-universe-a6816226.html

You might ought to re-read your article. It doesn't say what you think it does.

 

[murox]

Sorry for the digression, Cali.

I would also like to know how Satan became so powerful in the shadow of an omnipotent, omniscient god.

Imagine yourself the creator of the universe. We already know that the christian god is petty, jealous, insecure and behaves like a 14 year old girl (you better tell me you love me every night before bed or I'm sending you to hell!). Zero chance a being with such power would allow a "fallen angel" to challenge his hegemony. Not only that, according to christian mythology, he's MORE SUCCESSFUL than the christian god at recruiting adherents. 90% of the world population throughout history is team satan. It's suspension of reality at best, and outright retardation at worst. I can't wrap my mind around someone with an IQ over 90 believing in such nonsense.

 

[caliherd]

You know Rox although you deliver it a lot harsher than I would, what you said is really at the crux of things I find very frustrating about religion.

On the one hand we are supposed to believe in an all powerful, all-knowing all everything god who is perfect.

Yet this same perfect God couldn’t foresee that one of his creation would be the epitome of evil and try to take over heaven. But instead of wiping him out of existence he lets the devil go to hell where he can do things that makes human beings choose a life that puts them farther from God and a candidate to spend eternity in a very bad place.

It’s hard to follow any logic.

 

[extragreen]

Imagine yourself, a human being, believing that your life form originated from random chemicals in precise amounts, and was acted upon by an unknown agent in order to bring those chemicals to life. Life...something all of your over 90 IQers have absolutely no workable definition for. Then, you have to believe these chemicals somehow developed a way to ingest energy of some sort in some way, manage to somehow figure out how to use it and store it, and figure out how to rid itself of waste products. Then it had to figure out how to congregate themselves together into colonies to form more complicated organisms, and figure out how to duplicate itself in order to continue the species. And it did all that without a mind. Yeah, logic you say.

 

[extragreen]

You know Rox although you deliver it a lot harsher than I would, what you said is really at the crux of things I find very frustrating about religion.

On the one hand we are supposed to believe in an all powerful, all-knowing all everything god who is perfect.

Yet this same perfect God couldn’t foresee that one of his creation would be the epitome of evil and try to take over heaven. But instead of wiping him out of existence he lets the devil go to hell where he can do things that makes human beings choose a life that puts them farther from God and a candidate to spend eternity in a very bad place.

It’s hard to follow any logic.

You didn't answer my question. Here it is again.....Why is an answer to your questions important to you?

 

[sistersville]

I get that sisters and I’m trying to figure out why. Why did God create the devil and why did he give the beings he created a free will that could possibly get us sent to Hell.

We would be robots if not for free will. Lord loves you.

 

[Dreh_Nagi_HC_IM]

Does God love all living creatures?...including chimps, bugs, giraffes, snakes?

Are they exempt from heaven or hell? If so, why?

 

[ThunderCat98]

Satan isn't in hell. He and his minions are in tbe world.

 

[WV-FAN]

Satan isn't in hell. He and his minions are in tbe world.

i use to bang a chic whom, as my friends put it, was carved straight out of the devils asshole.

 

[Dreh_Nagi_HC_IM]

i use to bang a chic whom, as my friends put it, was carved straight out of the devils asshole.

Yeah, I remember her.

 

[WV-FAN]

here's a car load of you atheists with michjackass driving . . .

 

[WV-FAN]

Yeah, I remember her.

she has her daddy's eyes!

 

[ohio herd]

You know Rox although you deliver it a lot harsher than I would, what you said is really at the crux of things I find very frustrating about religion.

On the one hand we are supposed to believe in an all powerful, all-knowing all everything god who is perfect.

Yet this same perfect God couldn’t foresee that one of his creation would be the epitome of evil and try to take over heaven. But instead of wiping him out of existence he lets the devil go to hell where he can do things that makes human beings choose a life that puts them farther from God and a candidate to spend eternity in a very bad place.

It’s hard to follow any logic.

Cali, this is a deep theological question so I will try to put it out here so it helps you.

Satan is not the opposite of God. Though he would like people to think so, he is not divine he is a created being a fallen angel to be exact. . God is all-powerful, everywhere present, and all-knowing. Satan is none of these. He does not have unlimited power, he cannot be everywhere at once, and he does not know everything. He is a created, limited being. He depends upon God for his existence.

So, again, why doesn’t God eliminate Satan altogether, right now? He could certainly do so. After all, God is omnipotent and Satan is only a creature. God made him and God can certainly destroy him. Satan exists as do we all, by virtue of God’s sustaining power. God upholds Satan in existence the same as he upholds us and all of creation.

We also know that God certainly has the right to destroy Satan. The moment Satan sinned he was subject to judgment. That Satan continues to exist doesn’t mean God can’t or that God shouldn’t destroy him. He can, and he most assuredly has every right to do so.

Furthermore, not only is God able to remove Satan, not only does he have the right to remove Satan, we also know from Scripture that he will judge and remove Satan forever. We know that it is God’s ultimate purpose to cast Satan and all his demons into the lake of fire.

In Matthew 25:41 Jesus himself referred to “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”

So, it wouldn’t be unjust for God to consign him there now. It wouldn’t violate any principle of fair play or be inconsistent with what we read elsewhere in Scripture concerning Satan. There is nothing in the removal of Satan and his demons that would be contrary to God’s character or his purpose for human history. So why does he remain in place?

The scriptures don't lend a clear cut answer but there are many different reasons that have been offered by theologians down through the years.

God allowed Satan, the epitome of evil, to enter the Garden of Eden and tempt Adam and Eve to depart from God’s instructions. They then had to make a choice. They chose to follow Satan's temptation rather than God instructions. Satan’s tragic delusion of mankind has been the result.

However, when Jesus Christ returns to the earth, He will remove the delusion of Satan. God then will begin, on a grand scale, the process of reversing the damage Satan has done. Eventually none of the devil’s influence will remain.

God created us with free will so that we could worship him without being made to.
It is important to hold sovereignty and responsibility together. Deny Gods sovereignty and he is no longer God. Deny our responsibility and we are no longer human (more like robots).

With the devil, the issues will be similar. God created humans and angels with the ability and responsibility to worship and serve Him. In the beginning, God created everything good. God did not create robots which were unable to do anything but follow their programs - God created responsible agents who were free to worship him willingly. The devil was not evil to start with, but chose to rebel against God. God is still in control, and the devil is responsible for what he has done.

 

[ohio herd]

Christian mythology is no different than the mythology of the thousands of religions that have existed throughout history. Written by unenlightened people trying to explain the unknown world around them. Passed down for millennia and instilled in the minds of children who aren't old or wise enough to thoroughly process what is being told to them.

Luckily for humankind, we are currently living in a time where religions of all kinds are being rejected. Superstition and stories of supernatural beings are being forced to fringe groups around the world.

View embedded media

not true Rox. Why? Because while inherited religion will decline in the modern age, religion that is chosen need not do so.So in a sense America is seeing both occur simultaneously. You mention the decline in Europe as well as America.For centuries in Europe religion had been inherited — that is, most people were born into their church and remained a member of it unless they did something quite drastic to end the association. Most European countries had one national church that was a part of the racial-national identity. So if you were Polish you were Catholic, if you were Swedish you were Lutheran, if you were Scottish you were Presbyterian. We could add that in past times even in the US, where there has never been one dominant church, you were not considered a good American unless you went to a church of some kind. It is this inherited religion that is declining rapidly.Yes church attendance in the USA is in decline , no doubt. A great book on this subject is , "The American Church In Crisis." However, today we are observing a growth of Christianity that is unparalleled in modern history. With the growth of the church in continental Africa and Latin America these two groups are re-energizing the church in the USA as they flood our shores.

Finally, China's Protestant community, which had just one million members in 1949, has already overtaken those of countries more commonly associated with an evangelical boom. In 2010 there were more than 58 million Protestants in China compared to 40 million in Brazil and 36 million in South Africa, according to the Pew Research Centre's Forum on Religion and Public Life.

Prof Yang, a leading expert on religion in China, believes that number will swell to around 160 million by 2025.All I can say is don't count us out just yet.

 

[extragreen]

Cali, this is a deep theological question so I will try to put it out here so it helps you.

Satan is not the opposite of God. Though he would like people to think so, he is not divine he is a created being a fallen angel to be exact. . God is all-powerful, everywhere present, and all-knowing. Satan is none of these. He does not have unlimited power, he cannot be everywhere at once, and he does not know everything. He is a created, limited being. He depends upon God for his existence.

So, again, why doesn’t God eliminate Satan altogether, right now? He could certainly do so. After all, God is omnipotent and Satan is only a creature. God made him and God can certainly destroy him. Satan exists as do we all, by virtue of God’s sustaining power. God upholds Satan in existence the same as he upholds us and all of creation.

We also know that God certainly has the right to destroy Satan. The moment Satan sinned he was subject to judgment. That Satan continues to exist doesn’t mean God can’t or that God shouldn’t destroy him. He can, and he most assuredly has every right to do so.

Furthermore, not only is God able to remove Satan, not only does he have the right to remove Satan, we also know from Scripture that he will judge and remove Satan forever. We know that it is God’s ultimate purpose to cast Satan and all his demons into the lake of fire.

In Matthew 25:41 Jesus himself referred to “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”

So, it wouldn’t be unjust for God to consign him there now. It wouldn’t violate any principle of fair play or be inconsistent with what we read elsewhere in Scripture concerning Satan. There is nothing in the removal of Satan and his demons that would be contrary to God’s character or his purpose for human history. So why does he remain in place?

The scriptures don't lend a clear cut answer but there are many different reasons that have been offered by theologians down through the years.

God allowed Satan, the epitome of evil, to enter the Garden of Eden and tempt Adam and Eve to depart from God’s instructions. They then had to make a choice. They chose to follow Satan's temptation rather than God instructions. Satan’s tragic delusion of mankind has been the result.

However, when Jesus Christ returns to the earth, He will remove the delusion of Satan. God then will begin, on a grand scale, the process of reversing the damage Satan has done. Eventually none of the devil’s influence will remain.

God created us with free will so that we could worship him without being made to.
It is important to hold sovereignty and responsibility together. Deny Gods sovereignty and he is no longer God. Deny our responsibility and we are no longer human (more like robots).

With the devil, the issues will be similar. God created humans and angels with the ability and responsibility to worship and serve Him. In the beginning, God created everything good. God did not create robots which were unable to do anything but follow their programs - God created responsible agents who were free to worship him willingly. The devil was not evil to start with, but chose to rebel against God. God is still in control, and the devil is responsible for what he has done.

Nice post.
Jesus certainly will come again, but Jesus will not return to the Earth. Ever.

 

[i am herdman]

Yeah, I remember her.

She is a butter face.

 

[Herd Fever]

Since we have a ton of religious based posts on this board I thought I would put a question out there that has puzzled me for several years.

Understand I am not trying to be funny or make fun of anything. It’s just some questions I have had in my mind for years.

I know a lot of you guys are very well versed in the Bible and Keep is a preacher so I’m anxious to see the answers.

Can someone tell me why there is a devil? Everything I have ever heard is that God is the supreme being of the universe so why did he create the devil and once he did create it why did he not just cause him to cease to exist when he did the rebellion against him. Why instead did he create hell and put the devil in it where he has been able to do all of his evil stuff.

Second part of the question why were we given free will. Why would God give us something that would allow us to become so corrupted that could lead us when we die to an eternal life in torment in Hell.

Hell being a place that he created to put a creature that he is more powerful than who lead a rebellion against him that he should have just eliminated from the planet instead of putting him somewhere where he could corrupt man. Why would God take that chance with beings he created?

Just something I have pondered over the years and would like to hear our deeply religious posters opinions.

1st Question. The Devil was higher than the Angels. He and his follower Angels led a rebellion against God in Heaven. The concept of Hell is for all the souls who continued to rebel against God the Father with the sins, false preachings, Idolaty, Sexual Immoralaty, not keeping Gods commands, and believing and accepting false teachings.

2nd Question. Understand that Earth is the City of Refuge. Earth is for God's Child to repent their sins in the flesh so their souls can receive Salvation and return to the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Herd Fever]

Valid points. I'm not trying to persuade anyone to believe a certain way. I hope everyone reaches their own conclusions with logic and rational thought, without dogma or pressure. I am not criticizing anyone's beliefs either. I attended church regularly for a number of years and read the Bible, cover to cover, a few times. There are too many inconsistencies and contradictions for me to bestow my "faith" in.

I really wouldn't classify myself as an atheist, because that would mean I have concluded there is no god. I believe there could be, I just don't believe he/it is as described in the Bible. So, I suppose to most accurately classify myself, I would say I am agnostic (literally meaning without knowledge (of a deity)).

You cant put the teachings together in a Church with a Cross, A Church who doesnt keep the True Sabbath, and a Church who doesnt keep God's Festivals, and a Church who keep the Pagan Holidays of the Romans and of Babylon.

Churches like that are Churches that are blinded and cursed by God.