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Ali

i am herdman

i am herdman

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I honestly don't know what to think or say about him. One side of me didn't like because of his draft dodging and rambling on about the country who made him millions to fight people. Without America he would have been nothing. When I joined the military some of the older guys had served in Vietnam and they absolutely hated him like they did Jane Fonda. One side of me says he dodged service so he could still have the chance to box again. He probably would have never seen the war as he was a celebrity and they would have used him as a PR piece. Here we are at D Day where thousands died and answered the call and we will be overblown by his death. He was Cassius Clay until the draft board called and he found religion.

Then, the other side me appreciates his tremendous skill and the way he could market himself. Very Smart guy and he seemed to do a lot of good works around the world after boxing.

And, he was inflicted with a terrible disease the last years of his life. He was one of the iconic athletes ever.
 
i am herdman said:
I honestly don't know what to think or say about him. One side of me didn't like because of his draft dodging and rambling on about the country who made him millions to fight people. Without America he would have been nothing. When I joined the military some of the older guys had served in Vietnam and they absolutely hated him like they did Jane Fonda. One side of me says he dodged service so he could still have the chance to box again. He probably would have never seen the war as he was a celebrity and they would have used him as a PR piece. Here we are at D Day where thousands died and answered the call and we will be overblown by his death. He was Cassius Clay until the draft board called and he found religion.

Then, the other side me appreciates his tremendous skill and the way he could market himself. Very Smart guy and he seemed to do a lot of good works around the world after boxing.

And, he was inflicted with a terrible disease the last years of his life. He was one of the iconic athletes ever.
Click to expand...
You can convince me that his terrible disease wasn't self inflicted
 
Of course the local paper has had extensive coverage of his death.

In one article, the director of the Parkinson's center Ali founded said his Parkinson's was genetic in origin but exacerbated by brain trauma from boxing. He said by this point in life his illness would have been the same without boxing.

Ali did not dodge the draft. He didn't run to Canada or get a doctor to say he had some dubious illness, nor did he spend ten years in college to stay out of the war. He stood up and was arrested. He was stripped of his title and livelihood. That is called standing by one's convictions.
 
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Not completely true Raoul.

Ali seemed to suddenly find his religion when uncle Sam needed him. Also many a black man completed their duty. Ali likely would have never been in a line unit. Ted Williams served twice in two wars. Elvis served. Ali hid behind his new religion. Why? Probably to preserve his boxing career. Much of it was reinstated.

Ali bashed the country that made him wealthy and would later forgive him.

Ali was a draft dodger no matter how you slice it. He could have served in some compacity.
 
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i am herdman said:
Not completely true Raoul
Click to expand...

What exact part of my statement is not true?

Ali was well aware he would be arrested and stripped of the title. This is a fact of history. So no, he didn't "find religion" to save his boxing career. And Ali was Muslim before he won the belt, changing his name before his second fight with Liston. We can certainly argue about how fvxked up the Nation of Islam was, but those are the facts.

And Jesus man, it is 2016. Surely we can now realize the Vietnam War was wrong and immoral, the draft for that war was immoral, and thus it was actually right to take a stand against that war.
 
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i am herdman said:
Not completely true Raoul.

Ali seemed to suddenly find his religion when uncle Sam needed him. Also many a black man completed their duty. Ali likely would have never been in a line unit. Ted Williams served twice in two wars. Elvis served. Ali hid behind his new religion. Why? Probably to preserve his boxing career. Much of it was reinstated.

Ali bashed the country that made him wealthy and would later forgive him.

Ali was a draft dodger no matter how you slice it. He could have served in some compacity.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with Raoul. Even though his finding religion prior to being drafted seemed convenient, it would be very hard to deny that he didn't spend a lifetime practicing Islam. After his conviction was overturned he continued to practice his religion. If he was using it as a tool to escape service he certainly didn't have to spend a lifetime following through. And although he escaped prison he lost three years of earnings in his prime. He paid plenty.

And like you implied, he certainly wasn't going to see any action. He'd likely have served in some kind of ambassador position and lead a fairly cushy life until his term was up. Ali certainly knew that. This made his commitment to not fighting even more valid in my opinion.

Here's a brief description of conscientious objection...

"Current military policy has defined conscientious objection as the following: “A firm, fixed, and sincere objection to participation in war in any form or the bearing of arms, by reason of religious training and/or belief.” (DOD 1300.6) This definition has been further clarified by both military policy and our legal system."

This is why the Supreme Court overturned his original conviction. People calling him a coward are being intellectually dishonest. Ali was anything but a coward and was willing to pay the price for his convictions even though it cost him plenty and garnered the ire of a large segment of Americans. To me that strengthens the notion that he did this out of personal convictions.

The simple fact is many people don't believe in fighting. We wouldn't even have a need for the military if everyone felt that way. Of course many people will slam him in order give themselves a heightened feeling of patriotism and add weight to their own self worth.
 
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ThunderCat98 said:
Well, we all know Muslims don't believe in violence . . .
Click to expand...

Of course some Muslims have a history of violence. But a sweeping statement doesn't answer to the point being made. My father was a lifetime military person. I respect the job and sacrifice they make. I abhor the violence of some Muslims in the name of their religion. But Ali led a peaceful life and as far as I know never advocated the killing of innocent people.
 
Hey what if a bunch of guys said we don't want to go kill Germans on a beach on Normandy.

Look ali went on to do great things. But he dodged the draft. I don't hate the guy but he didn't want to serve his country. Plain and simple.
 
How would like it if your poor son went to Nam and died and Ali went on to make millions a d be a superstar?

He was selfish. Plan and simple.
Elvis Presley did his time. Ted.williams went twice and was a fighter pilot.
 
GK4Herd said:
Of course some Muslims have a history of violence. But a sweeping statement doesn't answer to the point being made. My father was a lifetime military person. I respect the job and sacrifice they make. I abhor the violence of some Muslims in the name of their religion. But Ali led a peaceful life and as far as I know never advocated the killing of innocent people.
Click to expand...

Let's pare it down some then. The Nation of Islam, whom Ali identified with, is/was not an organization founded on peace and love
 
i am herdman said:
How would like it if your poor son went to Nam and died and Ali went on to make millions a d be a superstar?

He was selfish. Plan and simple.
Elvis Presley did his time. Ted.williams went twice and was a fighter pilot.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying and don't totally disagree with you. All I'm saying is that on issues like this we tend to oversimplify them in order to align them neatly with our ideological held beliefs. But the truth of the matter is that if Ali served, the same kids were going to die anyway. It wouldn't change the fact that people die in wars. Ali chosing not to serve makes a convenient scapegoat while venting our emotions over possible deaths of our own sons (or daughters), but in reality his serving wouldn't have saved them.

But I think there's some irony here as well. We stand on these patriotic notions and buy into these ideals we are taught growing up that it's our duty to fight for our country. Thank goodness we buy in too because history shows that to exist as a nation we have to defend ourselves. But our country also allows for diversity in belief. The whole conscientious objector thing is constitutionally protected. So whether we like it or not, these wars are fought to protect that very constitution which allows for those beliefs. We can't buy into the notion of patriotism and nationalism and ignore the parts of the constitution that doesn't fit our narrative. When we fight we are fighting for ALL of it.

I understand what you're saying and dont totally disagree. But it is never as simple as we package it.
 
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You all do understand that Ali joined the Nation of Islam with Malcom X and was a follower of the radical man who helped plot the assassination of Maclom X. That same man was also imprisoned during WW2 because of views that the black race was superior and trying to radicalize blacks.

It is not like Ali joined a pacifistic commune or sancturary. He was surrounded by radicals. He did this until nearly his middle 30's. Those same people bankrupted him and he finally left them.

Ali went on to do great things. But, don't give me the stuff about he was brave and stood for his peaceful convictions. He was damn near brain washed by the Nation of Islam and its radicals.

He was not standing on some moral high ground. It was likely for financial gain(can't get killed or wounded if you don't go) and he was following the radical teachings of a anti US radical leader.

Again, Ali would have filled an ambassador type role in the military, similar to Joe Loius. But, he was following the orders of a radical Nation of Islam leader.

That part of the history seems to be forgotten.
 
i am herdman said:
He was not standing on some moral high ground. It was likely for financial gain(can't get killed or wounded if you don't go) and he was following the radical teachings of a anti US radical leader.

Again, Ali would have filled an ambassador type role in the military, similar to Joe Loius. But, he was following the orders of a radical Nation of Islam leader.

That part of the history seems to be forgotten.
Click to expand...

you're kind of arguing yourself. in the first part you say he can't take a chance of getting killed or wounded as the reason he didn't go, but in the second you admit he wouldn't have seen actual combat most likely.
 
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I agree that his alignment was more radical at the time but it was 1967. He was indicted in June and MLK was assassinated in April of 1968. This wasn't exactly s stellar time in US history for treatment of blacks. But now we have a snapshot of Ali's whole life. He held to his beliefs and certainly didn't lead a life of violence. Neither did he promote it.
 
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herdit44 said:
you're kind of arguing yourself. in the first part you say he can't take a chance of getting killed or wounded as the reason he didn't go, but in the second you admit he wouldn't have seen actual combat most likely.
Click to expand...

No, I am not. He didn't want to go at all. Even him would have had a desk job.
 
GK4Herd said:
I agree that his alignment was more radical at the time but it was 1967. He was indicted in June and MLK was assassinated in April of 1968. This wasn't exactly s stellar time in US history for treatment of blacks. But now we have a snapshot of Ali's whole life. He held to his beliefs and certainly didn't lead a life of violence. Neither did he promote it.
Click to expand...

GK, I agree with you on that part. Ali did change and went on to do great works.
 
i am herdman said:
No, I am not. He didn't want to go at all. Even him would have had a desk job.
Click to expand...

yes you are arguing yourself. you said, "It was likely for financial gain(can't get killed or wounded if you don't go)" and then followed it up with, "again, Ali would have filled an ambassador type role in the military, similar to Joe Loius. (sic)"
 
I respect Ali for standing by his convictions not to enter the Vietnam War. I don't care for the decision but he paid his price for it so I have no choice but to respect it. I do not like the fact he joined Malcom X and all bullshit that went along with it. I think they way he treated Joe Frazier was deplorable. Frazier supported him, even gave him money after he got out of prison, Ali could have and should have been more of a friend to him than that.
Also, Ali is not the greatest boxer ever. I can name a half dozen better than he was.
 
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GK4Herd said:
I have to agree with Raoul. Even though his finding religion prior to being drafted seemed convenient, it would be very hard to deny that he didn't spend a lifetime practicing Islam. After his conviction was overturned he continued to practice his religion. If he was using it as a tool to escape service he certainly didn't have to spend a lifetime following through. And although he escaped prison he lost three years of earnings in his prime. He paid plenty.

And like you implied, he certainly wasn't going to see any action. He'd likely have served in some kind of ambassador position and lead a fairly cushy life until his term was up. Ali certainly knew that. This made his commitment to not fighting even more valid in my opinion.

Here's a brief description of conscientious objection...

"Current military policy has defined conscientious objection as the following: “A firm, fixed, and sincere objection to participation in war in any form or the bearing of arms, by reason of religious training and/or belief.” (DOD 1300.6) This definition has been further clarified by both military policy and our legal system."

This is why the Supreme Court overturned his original conviction. People calling him a coward are being intellectually dishonest. Ali was anything but a coward and was willing to pay the price for his convictions even though it cost him plenty and garnered the ire of a large segment of Americans. To me that strengthens the notion that he did this out of personal convictions.

The simple fact is many people don't believe in fighting. We wouldn't even have a need for the military if everyone felt that way. Of course many people will slam him in order give themselves a heightened feeling of patriotism and add weight to their own self worth.
Click to expand...

PREACH!!!!
 
Marine03 said:
I respect Ali for standing by his convictions not to enter the Vietnam War. I don't care for the decision but he paid his price for it so I have no choice but to respect it. I do not like the fact he joined Malcom X and all bullshit that went along with it. I think they way he treated Joe Frazier was deplorable. Frazier supported him, even gave him money after he got out of prison, Ali could have and should have been more of a friend to him than that.
Also, Ali is not the greatest boxer ever. I can name a half dozen better than he was.
Click to expand...

Name a Champion that held the title for 15 years.

Ali, Tyson, Frazier, Jack Johnson, and Joe Louis are the Top 5 Heavyweight boxers of all time
 
Herdman why don't you feel that way about Trump??

Don't bother answering, I know your answer
 
Herd Fever said:
Name a Champion that held the title for 15 years.

Ali, Tyson, Frazier, Jack Johnson, and Joe Louis are the Top 5 Heavyweight boxers of all time
Click to expand...

Joe Louis held it for over 11 years. Besides did I say heavyweight? I said boxers. But since you threw in heavyweights Tyson is not in the top 5.

1. Louis longest title reign in history, 25 title defenses
2. Marciano, beat Louis but I rank him second due to Louis age at the fight. Also retired undefeated

The next are interchangeable and can be ranked anywhere in no order
Ali, Frazier, Lewis, Holmes, Holyfield, Tunney, Dempsey
 
Herd Fever said:
Tyson in his prime beats anyone
Click to expand...

He was in his prime when he lost to Douglas. Below is a top 20 list from Bill Kaplan from Ring Magazine. This why he ranks Tyson at 17, which are facts that can't be disputed.

17. Mike Tyson. Why is he so low on the list? He had fast combinations, pulverizing power and was the great intimidator. He netted over 300 million dollars in purses (that he spent) because this anti-hero had record-breaking drawing power. So why isn’t he in the top 15? Iron Mike, another D’Amato creation, was the world’s greatest front runner. Never once did he walk through fire and win. He never came from behind to win. He never rose from the deck to win. Lack of heart? Lack of character? I don’t know. You tell me.
 
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herdit44 said:
yes you are arguing yourself. you said, "It was likely for financial gain(can't get killed or wounded if you don't go)" and then followed it up with, "again, Ali would have filled an ambassador type role in the military, similar to Joe Loius. (sic)"
Click to expand...

Even with a desk job he would have had to serve.
 
Herd Fever said:
If you don't have Tyson in your Top 5 Heavyweights, you don't know boxing
Click to expand...

If you have Tyson in your top 5, you don't know the history of boxing prior to 1986, which is why he's not in it. As for me "knowing boxing" I have a mantle full of trophies to prove otherwise, but if you don't believe me call this guy Ed Brophy who's the executive director of the IBHOF and tell him Jeff Castle said for you to call. Make sure you tell him you said "I don't know boxing." Listen long enough until your phone has a dial tone and tell me how hard he laughs at you while he hangs up. You can reach him at this number
315-697-7095
You should stick to the OF board and covering MU recruiting, that seems to be the only subject you have any intellect in. Boxing certainly is not a field you know anything about.
 
Tyson would have never got.in on Ali in his prime. Ali was too tall a day had a great jab.

I think Tyson in his prime and before his demise is higher than 17. But he couldn't beat Louis, Ali, Larry Holmes, Frazier.
Herd Fever said:
Herdman why don't you feel that way about Trump??

Don't bother answering, I know your answer
Click to expand...

What about Trump?
 
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