Clinging to Coal
- Thread starter GK4Herd
- Start date
It's a shame people see coal as useless. It's not something we are going to run out of.More people are affected by the loss of mines than coal miners. Every single business within 50 miles of a decent size mine suffer when the mine shuts down. From Wal mart to a little mom and pop country store. Forget the economy and only care about the environment is how WV wasc treated. Can't talk about racism or bigotry in WV when it's okay to call us anything and everything and it's okay. We dont have the social problems like most of the country. This place is almost heaven to a lot of us. I forgot I have lived in KY since 73. I can see WV by looking out a window
The environment isn’t the driver behind the demise of coal sisters. Automation as well as well as strip mining methods sealed the deal long before environmental issues came to the forefront. Here are facts about coal production...
*Mining was at its employment peak in1920 when 785,000 coal miners worked nationally.
*By 1980, automation and new mining techniques dropped the employment levels to around 242,000 nationally.
*From 1980 to 2000, which was 15 years prior to the EPA’s Clean Power Plan that mandated cuts in toxic emissions, employment dropped to 102,000. During that same period, coal production INCREASED by 8%.
*From 1980 to 2015, coal mining reduced its workforce by 59% and increased production of coal.
*By 2015, coal production jumped from 1.93 short tons per miner (1980) to 6.28 short tons per miner in 2015.
The bottom line is that automation and and the advent of strip mining techniques allowed for coal to be mined at a higher rate with less miners. The winners were the few coal mine owners at the expense of the workforce. That’s the nature of the beast in a free enterprise system.
Now...that same system is coming back to bite those very same people who profited from automation and more efficient mining techniques. Natural gas and new technology in its extraction as well as increasingly more efficient green energy is making energy production more efficient than coal. The Jim Justices of the world who profited at the miners expense are now struggling. That’s evident by the unpaid tax stories we’re reading about.
Now everybody loves a villain. We as humans seem to crave having someone or something to blame for all of our troubles. Along comes a president that paints whacko environmentalists as the reason for coal’s decline and everyone hoping for the return of our coal glory days buys in. This president strips away much of the environmental hurdles and everyone cheers his wisdom. Yet, coal mines are still shutting down at an unprecedented rate.
Why? Because the environment isn’t the main driver in this thing. Free enterprise is. Gas is cheaper. Green technology is becoming more efficient. The energy companies aren’t shunning coal because they are bogged down by environmental hurdles. They’re shunning coal because other energy sources make them more profitable.
And until West Virginia realizes that point we’ll continue to be stuck in economic purgatory. In the meantime, many in this state are still clinging to a way of life that isn’t going to return. Time to move on.
Just wait until the go after natural gas. Oh wait, fracking. Just wait until the go after windmills. Oh wait, Not on my mountain or beach. Nuclear? Nope. Don't like that either.
Solar Panels? the new fad? Just wait, they will go after them.
And anyone that denies for 8 years that they permits for mining coal were harder or damn near impossible to get are kidding themselves. The federal govt picked a side and damn near shut down what was left.
Solar Panels? the new fad? Just wait, they will go after them.
And anyone that denies for 8 years that they permits for mining coal were harder or damn near impossible to get are kidding themselves. The federal govt picked a side and damn near shut down what was left.
Coal is dead because gas is cheaper. Trump has removed many of the obstacles that made getting permits difficult. But guess what? Coal mines are still shutting down...
https://phys.org/news/2019-05-coal-power-trump.html
You aren't addressing any of the facts. Coal jobs declined before environmental regulations were even a thing. It was due to automation and strip mining. They produced coal with less people. The coal company owners were the benefactor. To a free enterprise, market driven conservative you should be happy.
You can't argue with facts and you obviously didn't. You obscured the whole argument with a hodge podge of stuff that didn't address any core issues. I don't blame you because you can't argue the facts. It's simple...coal isn't the cheapest way to produce energy.
As long as we have people who continue to cling to an industry that has run it's course, West Virginia will be economically depressed. Coal isn't coming back. We need to make amends to that fact.
Why do u seem to love seeing coal shut down GK? You like seeing wv losing jobs because you like a job where you don't break a sweat. Seriously u seem heartless towards one of the most skilled groups of workers ever
It’s a shame we ever burned it to begin with. We have emitted Sulfur Dioxide, Nitrogen Oxides and Mercury into our atmosphere. We have destroyed streams and groundwater. Acid mine drainage has destroyed many beautiful areas.
I agree coal is smaller because of technology and cheaper alternatives like gas. I don't disagree nor ever have I.
But, you don't think for 8 years permits were harder to get? C'mon. They were still trying to mine coal, regardless of competition, and could not because they could not get the permits.
Just wait, the enviros will go after the other stuff. I can't go take a picture of a no fracking sign 20 mins from here.
Windmills. NOT off the coast. Not on the mountains.
They will go after those as well.
Not at all happy about it sisters. I feel for those who lost their jobs. But coal jobs were being lost decades ago. I want the state to understand that and build their economy on new industry so that people in this state can earn a living wage. But where you think that we should be holding on to coal, I believe doing so will continue the same misery that this state has experienced for decades. So where you see me as being heartless is really unfair and misrepresents the reason I'm advocating moving on. Because clinging to a dying industry isn't helping the people of this state.
And on a personal note, I understand what it's like to lose your job. I managed an agency locally for a large insurance company. There were 14 agencies through out the state. The company made a decision that it would be more cost effective and profitable for them to concentrate their sales forces around large metropolitan areas. They started shutting down agencies through out the US in states with low population. In the course of a few years they closed every office in WV. One day I'm making six figures and the next
I'm being asked to step back into sales and start over. I moved on. I learned from it. Although I certainly suffered a lot of apprehension at the time, I came out better for the experience.
So don't pretend like the coal industry is the only one to experience this kind of thing. Read Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath. The entire way of life of thousands of farmers throughout the midwest was ripped from them. Generations of farmers tumbled under the economic burden of the depression, industrialization of farms, dust bowl, etc. Their experience was truly a sad and miserable one. But here's the thing...that way of life never returned. To continue holding onto an industry that time left by is futile.
I hate that you see my advocating that we move on from coal as heartless, but quite frankly I believe that trying to save an industry that is on life support is the real heartless act. It gives people false hope.
Coal was on a collision course for extinction long before Obama. Again...look at the facts in my first post. Obama isn't the fault and neither is Trump's efforts to save coal his fault that he hasn't. It is out of their hands.
Perhaps, but that like me saying an elderly person is going to die and I take away their prescriptions. Again, Obama's admin would not issue permits when people wanted to mine coal that people wanted to buy.
GK...the biggest issue (and you know this) is that anti-fossil fuel leftists in our government have specifically targeted coal in an effort to either ban it altogether or, at least, make it extremely difficult to mine from a regulatory standpoint. Every industry loses manpower thanks to automation, and coal is no different. But you know exactly where the disdain comes from on this topic.
False. If U S coal minining production wasn't meeting U S consumption needs, we would have seen imports increase. Imports has dropped sharply since about 2006-7.
I’m ready to look past who to blame and move forward. We can play the blame game till the cows come home and it doesn’t change anything. Moving forward, what do we base West Virginia’s economy on? Do we try to revive coal? Or do we find something else? I just don’t see coal being the sustainable answer. And as long as we hang on to a dying industry we are setting ourselves up for failure.
Yeah, from people like you and herdman falling for propaganda...or willfully helping to spread propaganda.
It's like you believe there is some sort of magic in which Big Bad Black Obama timed his fvcking of the coal industry with the exact moment natural gas production surged. Them evil Dems made that gas magically appear and come out the ground once the nagger got in office! Damn wizards!
example 1
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said it would veto a permit issued for the Spruce No. 1 mining project in 2011, four years after the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers had given its approval. The permit, issued under the Clean Water Act, would allow Mingo Logan, an Arch subsidiary, to discharge waste material into nearby waterways.
The case will now return to the U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C., where Arch is due to argue that the administration failed to follow the correct legal process when it made the decision to veto the project.
The permit was approved when President George W. Bush, a Republican, was in office. The EPA veto was issued after President Barack Obama, a Democrat, became president in 2009. Conservatives have accused Obama of waging a “war on coal,” a reference to the administration’s efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, including those from coal-burning power plants.
example 2 under the obama admin
Although the EPA has in the past challenged projects under consideration by the Army Corps, which has the job of issuing permits under the Clean Water Act, it was the first time the agency had ever blocked a project after a permit was approved.
Although the EPA has in the past challenged projects under consideration by the Army Corps, which has the job of issuing permits under the Clean Water Act, it was the first time the agency had ever blocked a project after a permit was approved.
No. Are you going to continue your false information that "Obama's admin would not issue permits when people wanted to mine coal that people wanted to buy.
This is you recognizing that my statement is correct. Thank you.
Why do we have to give up coal in order to have more variety in our economy? That’s the whole point of this argument. Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive? They don’t. People who advocate for the destruction of the coal industry act as if we must get rid of coal before we can have a wide array of other industries in our economy. That’s just ridiculous.
I moved out of WV, but my wife still calls me a fatalist. I can't help it, something in my bones makes me this way.
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But, I've railed on this before (and haven't really devoted a lot of time to this concept), but I *think* the answer was large scale production of pot. Should have gotten out in front of everyone on this and had either WVU or Marshall start up a marijuana horticulture program. They can then branch out into cultivating mushrooms or Ayahuasca. Partner with *gasp* big pharma and just grow a ton of medical grade pot. Teach people how to farm it. No way the Appalachians are going to #learntocode, but I bet they could farm well if taught correctly. Teach people about responsible use. Start MDMA psychiatry/psychology mental health resorts - celebs are already going to Austin for this stuff, it'll be mainstream before you know.
White water, deer hunting, and lots of legal drugs. Come cure your depression with MDMA or Ayahuasca and then take a run down the upper Gualey with some hippies that can raft guide like no one else.
I'm probably too much on the Joe Rogan train but I think in 20-30 years we see across the board pot legalization and maybe even mushroom/psychodelic legalization as well. Get out in front of it and embrace it in WV. It can't be worse than opiate narcotics intermixed with abject poverty in the coal fields.
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This is all coming from someone who has honest to God never touched pot or mushrooms. I don't think pot is completely safe - especially for paranoid people - and I do think there is some reasonable data that for a small percentage of people it may even trigger a true Axis I mental disorder like biplar or schizophrenia. However, on a population level I think it's fairly safe.
Because the coal industry sucks so much attention and importance from the legislature that there is none left to pursue anything else. The majority of state policies are built around the desires of one industry and its lobby.
"King Coal" never meant coal was the #1 economic activity in WV.
I was preaching this back in the 1990s. A combination of nature, counter-culture, and high technology. But hell no, let's blow up some more mountains, continue to bow to the Bible Beaters, and believe Johnny don't need no schoolin', he can work in the mines.
Since you have the comprehension of a slug, I'll ask in a different way....can you name a U S industry of any kind who wasn't able to purchase as much coal as they needed?? If so, name that industry....
Do coal mines sell outside of the USA? Asking for a friend? Also, if a company wanted to produce coal and could not get a permit because of the EPA then didn't the govt stop production? Why? So, the govt was stopping production even though the companies wanted to produce more coal. You do realize there are global markets don't you?
Coal is almost out the door. Maybe someone far smarter than the scientists now will come up with a way to burn coal cleanly in the future. But then it would still be a fight against the tree huggers on the damage it does mining the coal. I'm surprised they can disturb the ground enough to build a road in West Virginia. I'm hoping Trump steps in and claims what the government claimed in 2005 that black lung was something you got because you were allergic to coal dust not because of exposure. Why not help out the remaining miners who will probably die because their lungs are covered with coal dust, me included. I have second stage but my lawyer says the truth is their is no money to pay out. They turn me down but I don't file the claim. I toss it in the garbage. I don't blame Obama.
Corporations and the government have fvcked you guys with black lung. Someone should hang for it, honestly.
Coal might have become a hell of a lot more automated, but natural gas is MUCH cheaper to produce. Once the well is producing, you just set back and make money.
The EPA will close the doors of my shop if I pour xylene, lacquer thinner, and acetate into the water system, regardless of how much money I might make or how much a client wants a set of cabinets.
They historically had not against the US Army Corps of Eng permits once they were issued. They did that once Obama took office.
You like national security issues. What happens if/when we need coal to make steel? Or for use as a power source?
Well first, then why do we sell it to the fvcking Chinese? Because if we leave what we don't use in the ground, it will still be there if we need it.
I am 100% opposed to selling our energy resources to any other nation, except for a few really close allies. If Britain needs some help, cool. Canada? Sure. China? Fvck you.
Unless you are a coal company. Then by all means, dump shit in the water, hell kill some employees too. The State of WV will have your back.
Most scientists and environmentalists would agree, the tiny little amount greed uses in his business is harmless. Not enough used to hurt anybody or any ecosystem.
It doesn't take much to foul a small creek and harm wildlife. And if every small user is dumping it, you have a problem.
Xylene is highly dangerous. That shit will fvck up your brain.
