Crazy night at the Capitol

[GK4Herd]

The senate finance committee voted 9-8 to modify the passed house 5% bill which would only mean 4% with 1% first year. House said they'd not pass the modified version. The school superintendents and unions come out immediately and said no school until original 5% bill is passed.

Now is where it gets hilarious. The senate went to floor after it came out of finance and accidentally voted on the original 5% bill and not the modified. Seriously...accidentally. And then mayhem broke out. They somehow got the bill recalled but now they are in argument over which reading they're on.

They are currently on recess and no one knows what is going on. This is going to be a national embarrassment for Carmichael and WV.

Anyway...you couldn't make this stuff up.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

It sounds like amateur hour.

 

[GK4Herd]

Already on CNN...


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/03/03/us/west-virginia-teachers-strike/index.html

 

[countryroads89]

What an embarrassment.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

Question: if the Senate passed both the 5% and 4% bills, can't Justice just sign the 5% bill? Show some balls and tell the Senate to stick it if he really just "wants the kids back in school".

 

[i am herdman]

Question about WV schools? Why would the superintendents come out and say no school? Wouldn't they be neutral typically and no take one side or the other? Don't they serve at the will of the county and are appointed by a board?

 

[GK4Herd]

Question: if the Senate passed both the 5% and 4% bills, can't Justice just sign the 5% bill? Show some balls and tell the Senate to stick it if he really just "wants the kids back in school".

The senate was successful in getting the 5% pulled. They were challenged on procedural error, but guess how that gets resolved? Yep...a senate vote. Since the republicans have the majority they were successful in getting it removed. So the modified 4% bill gets sent to the House and is rejected. Evidently that means that a special panel of both House and senate members have to meet to try to resolve. They’re supposedly meeting now.

 

[GK4Herd]

Question about WV schools? Why would the superintendents come out and say no school? Wouldn't they be neutral typically? Don't they serve at the will of the county and are appointed by a board?

The superintendents met with both Carmichael and Justice and made it clear that the teachers would remain out until the bill was passed in its original form as promised by the governor. All three unions (the two teachers and the service personnel) immediately issued a statement that school is indefinitely suspended until this is resolved. We’ve already received notices from union reps for everyone to be at the Capitol on Monday. There will be no picketers at the schools.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

The senate was successful in getting the 5% pulled. They were challenged on procedural error, but guess how that gets resolved? Yep...a senate vote. Since the republicans have the majority they were successful in getting it removed. So the modified 4% bill gets sent to the House and is rejected. Evidently that means that a special panel of both House and senate members have to meet to try to resolve. They’re supposedly meeting now.

Did the bills have separate bill numbers? If so, I think a judge would tell them tough shit. If not, the passage of the second version should supercede anyway.

 

[i am herdman]

The superintendents met with both Carmichael and Justice and made it clear that the teachers would remain out until the bill was passed in its original form as promised by the governor. All three unions (the two teachers and the service personnel) immediately issued a statement that school is indefinitely suspended until this is resolved. We’ve already received notices from union reps for everyone to be at the Capitol on Monday. There will be no picketers at the schools.

Are the superintendents just passing this info on? They don't choose a side do they?

 

[GK4Herd]

Did the bills have separate bill numbers? If so, I think a judge would tell them tough shit. If not, the passage of the second version should supercede anyway.

I’m not sure to be honest. I’ve pieced this whole thing together by watching the Senate Finance Committee live feed and then getting bombed with a million texts and Facebook posts while watching the basketball game. It’s been kind of a blur. This article does the best job of describing everything so far...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/03/us/west-virginia-teachers-strike/index.html

 

[GreenDuke]

Are the superintendents just passing this info on? They don't choose a side do they?

LMAO. Great troll.

 

[ARandomHerdFan]

Question about WV schools? Why would the superintendents come out and say no school? Wouldn't they be neutral typically and no take one side or the other? Don't they serve at the will of the county and are appointed by a board?

Are the superintendents just passing this info on? They don't choose a side do they?

 

[HerdBuckeye]

Shitshow.

 

[trailherd]

Essentially what happened was a clerk somewhere filed the wrong "amendment". The clerk inadvertantly filed the house version of the bill (5%). However, counsel and the Senate clerk described the amendment as 4%. Democrats apparently knew the mistake and played along.

The Speaker of the House, when he received it, sent it back and Republicans attempted to walk back the bill to amend it again. This is where it gets tricky. They can recall the bill. However, there is no provision in the rules that makes clear how to get the bill back to 2nd reading (the amendment stage).

Democrats are contending that you need to suspend the rules to do that (a 2/3 vote would be needed), as the bill is recalled to the stage it was in (3rd reading). However, Republicans are arguing that the rules had already been suspended because the bill returned to the stage it was in (since the rules had been suspended, they remain suspended.).

There is absolutely no precedent for either position. I'm a bit torn on this one. I wanted to see Carmichael check his ego and let the bill pass unchanged yesterday so this could end.

However, I don't want legislators to pass a bill that says something other than what was intended (and what was even described by the clerk) because of a clerical error.

 

[i am herdman]

LMAO. Great troll.

I am seriously asking the question. WV is a cluster ****. You never know. Honest to God, it is a serious question. Where I live the superintendent would say get your ass back to work or you are fired. In WV it appears they go to the legislature the teachers are not going back to work. I was asking the question, are they just relaying a vote in their county or are they on the teachers side?

 

[trailherd]

I am seriously asking the question.

They have affirmatively stated that they expect the teachers to receive 5% (because that was what was negotiated in good faith), and they will close schools indefinitely until they do.

 

[i am herdman]

What an embarrassment.

i have to agree with you there.

 

[i am herdman]

They have affirmatively stated that they expect the teachers to receive 5% (because that was what was negotiated in good faith), and they will close schools indefinitely until they do.

You have to be kidding me. How the hell does a school superintendent do that? I guess I don't get the mentality up there anymore. I don't get how things work. WV is lost in the stone ages. Like the Afghanistan of the US. A school superintendent should be saying get your ass back to work or we are going to start canning people for insubordination.

 

[GK4Herd]

Essentially what happened was a clerk somewhere filed the wrong "amendment". The clerk inadvertantly filed the house version of the bill (5%). However, counsel and the Senate clerk described the amendment as 4%. Democrats apparently knew the mistake and played along.

The Speaker of the House, when he received it, sent it back and Republicans attempted to walk back the bill to amend it again. This is where it gets tricky. They can recall the bill. However, there is no provision in the rules that makes clear how to get the bill back to 2nd reading (the amendment stage).

Democrats are contending that you need to suspend the rules to do that (a 2/3 vote would be needed), as the bill is recalled to the stage it was in (3rd reading). However, Republicans are arguing that the rules had already been suspended because the bill returned to the stage it was in (since the rules had been suspended, they remain suspended.).

There is absolutely no precedent for either position. I'm a bit torn on this one. I wanted to see Carmichael check his ego and let the bill pass unchanged yesterday so this could end.

However, I don't want legislators to pass a bill that says something other than what was intended (and what was even described by the clerk) because of a clerical error.

Although it would be immensely satisfying for me, I tend to agree with you. Now the question becomes, what are the rules of the special committee of three members of both chambers (two republicans and one democratic from each to reflect the majority)? If I understand it correctly, this committee has to come up with some kind of compromise and that compromise needs to meet 2/3 approval on the floor. With four republicans and two democrats, I can’t imagine how that would go. However the Republican majority House did pas the original 5% with 98-1.

I heard it speculated that the strategy for the republicans was to possibly run out the clock on the session. With the teachers, superintendents, and all three unions saying that school won’t resume unless the promised 5% and PEIA task force is passed in its original form, are we setting up for this thing to go weeks?
I need to find the rules on this committee.

 

[GK4Herd]

You have to be kidding me. How the hell does a school superintendent do that? I guess I don't get the mentality up there anymore. I don't get how things work. WV is lost in the stone ages. Like the Afghanistan of the US. A school superintendent should be saying get your ass back to work or we are going to start canning people for insubordination.

I don’t get that you don’t get why superintendents would support their teachers. I know you invest quite a bit of time promoting the backwoods image you project of WV, but you’re not thinking this thing through. The morale and well being of the teachers are definitely in the best interest of the school system. What is more logical to you...that 55 county superintendents, educated individuals who have won the respect of those who place them, are all falling victim to some backwoods mentality that somehow ceases to exist across the borders of other states, or that they are intelligent enough to understand that supporting their teachers provides the positive climate needed for success?

 

[i am herdman]

I don’t get that you don’t get why superintendents would support their teachers. I know you invest quite a bit of time promoting the backwoods image you project of WV, but you’re not thinking this thing through. The morale and well being of the teachers are definitely in the best interest of the school system. What is more logical to you...that 55 county superintendents, educated individuals who have won the respect of those who place them, are all falling victim to some backwoods mentality that somehow ceases to exist across the borders of other states, or that they are intelligent enough to understand that supporting their teachers provides the positive climate needed for success?

GK, you are a good man. But, that is propaganda. The Superintendents job should be to educate the children of the county. Not be submissive to the teachers. They are afraid of the teachers there. They should not be negotiating for the teachers. Don't you have a union? Let's say you all get 5%. You are still going to be bitching a year or two down the road. Regardless, that should not be the job of the superintendent. Frankly, the school board, should not allow that. Negotiate in good faith? How do you negotiate in good faith with people that walk off their job. Probably illegally at that. The superintendent is choosing sides.

Yes, WV is acting backwoods. Both sides are acting backwoods. Your education system is shut down. Meanwhile the world is moving forward. Your children are being punished and hurt. You are arguing over money and that has noting to do with kids.


Frankly, if I were a superintendent, I would order schools open and I would call in substitute teachers. Somebody would do it. Maybe not many, but somebody would. I would care if the entire school had to sit in the gym and watch Star Wars movies every day.

At this point, if I were the governor, I would meet with the attorney general and file suit. My job as governor would be to get the state back to business.

 

[GreenDuke]

GK, you are a good man. But, that is propaganda. The Superintendents job should be to educate the children of the county. Not be submissive to the teachers. They are afraid of the teachers there. They should not be negotiating for the teachers. Don't you have a union? Let's say you all get 5%. You are still going to be bitching a year or two down the road. Regardless, that should not be the job of the superintendent. Frankly, the school board, should not allow that. Negotiate in good faith? How do you negotiate in good faith with people that walk off their job. Probably illegally at that. The superintendent is choosing sides.

Yes, WV is acting backwoods. Both sides are acting backwoods. Your education system is shut down. Meanwhile the world is moving forward. Your children are being punished and hurt. You are arguing over money and that has noting to do with kids.


Frankly, if I were a superintendent, I would order schools open and I would call in substitute teachers. Somebody would do it. Maybe not many, but somebody would. I would care if the entire school had to sit in the gym and watch Star Wars movies every day.

At this point, if I were the governor, I would meet with the attorney general and file suit. My job as governor would be to get the state back to business.

It’s very simple. County superintendents work for the county board of education. There is NOT a more POLITICAL position in WV than the local school board. Not (R or D) politics but the politics of power and influence. The boards of education are elected and teachers vote in mostly a herd mentality as do most collective bargaining organizations. The supers answer to the board and boards of every county are taking the temperature of the voters, when the teacher sympathy starts to go away pressure will come to end the strike and head back to the schoolhouse.

 

[GK4Herd]

GK, you are a good man. But, that is propaganda. The Superintendents job should be to educate the children of the county. Not be submissive to the teachers. They are afraid of the teachers there. They should not be negotiating for the teachers. Don't you have a union? Let's say you all get 5%. You are still going to be bitching a year or two down the road. Regardless, that should not be the job of the superintendent. Frankly, the school board, should not allow that. Negotiate in good faith? How do you negotiate in good faith with people that walk off their job. Probably illegally at that. The superintendent is choosing sides.

Yes, WV is acting backwoods. Both sides are acting backwoods. Your education system is shut down. Meanwhile the world is moving forward. Your children are being punished and hurt. You are arguing over money and that has noting to do with kids.


Frankly, if I were a superintendent, I would order schools open and I would call in substitute teachers. Somebody would do it. Maybe not many, but somebody would. I would care if the entire school had to sit in the gym and watch Star Wars movies every day.

At this point, if I were the governor, I would meet with the attorney general and file suit. My job as governor would be to get the state back to business.

Herdman...no offense either, but your whole post is so full of inaccuracies that it's hard to start. You are correct that the superintendents are taking sides.

Now...you ask why the superintendents are negotiating for us and don't we have a union? It's like you haven't read the first thing about this whole strike. The superintendents never negotiated for us. They simply passed on to Carmichael and the governor that teachers weren't returning until the raise was passed. Of course we have a union. Two of them as well as one for the service personnel. They sat with the governor and negotiated the proposed raise to begin with. So characterizing this as the superintendents negotiating for us is simply being uninformed or more accurately fitting your narrative.

And I'd love for you to be our superintendent so I could witness the comedy of you calling in substitutes. That's just so unaware of reality that it's mind boggling. First off, even when school is in session there's not enough substitutes to fill positions on a day when three or four teachers are absent, none the less if the whole school system was gone. Secondly, the substitute teachers are on the side of the teachers and would mostly refuse to work if called anyway. How do I know? They were polled along with the teachers.

But most of all you're forgetting all about the fact that bus drivers, aides, cooks, and custodians are also striking. Two weeks ago one bus driver was called out for an emergency and the kids had to be divvied up among other bus drivers to get them home. That's one bus. Now try to replace the entire county. What will the kids eat when they get there? The cooks are out too.Who cleans up after the sick kids when they throw up. Not the custodians...they're out too. Oh...the nurses are absent too because they're striking as well.

What about the autistic kids that have special aides assigned to them? Those aides are out as well. Who is going to ride the bus with the handicapped and special needs children?

You're viewing this whole thing from a very naive and uninformed perspective. Maybe in your ideologically narrowed perspective you can solve the problem with hard ass statements and a tough guy approach (get your ass back to school) , but in the real world it doesn't work like that.

 

[raleighherdfan]

Education in WV is already ranked in the 40s compared to the rest of the country. What’s another week, two or three going to do to the kids at this point. How much farther can you fall? Ranked 50 isn’t that far off. Does it really matter at this point??

Embrace this opportunity to become the best of the worst!!

 

[i am herdman]

Herdman...no offense either, but your whole post is so full of inaccuracies that it's hard to start. You are correct that the superintendents are taking sides.

Now...you ask why the superintendents are negotiating for us and don't we have a union? It's like you haven't read the first thing about this whole strike. The superintendents never negotiated for us. They simply passed on to Carmichael and the governor that teachers weren't returning until the raise was passed. Of course we have a union. Two of them as well as one for the service personnel. They sat with the governor and negotiated the proposed raise to begin with. So characterizing this as the superintendents negotiating for us is simply being uninformed or more accurately fitting your narrative.

And I'd love for you to be our superintendent so I could witness the comedy of you calling in substitutes. That's just so unaware of reality that it's mind boggling. First off, even when school is in session there's not enough substitutes to fill positions on a day when three or four teachers are absent, none the less if the whole school system was gone. Secondly, the substitute teachers are on the side of the teachers and would mostly refuse to work if called anyway. How do I know? They were polled along with the teachers.

But most of all you're forgetting all about the fact that bus drivers, aides, cooks, and custodians are also striking. Two weeks ago one bus driver was called out for an emergency and the kids had to be divvied up among other bus drivers to get them home. That's one bus. Now try to replace the entire county. What will the kids eat when they get there? The cooks are out too.Who cleans up after the sick kids when they throw up. Not the custodians...they're out too. Oh...the nurses are absent too because they're striking as well.

What about the autistic kids that have special aides assigned to them? Those aides are out as well. Who is going to ride the bus with the handicapped and special needs children?

You're viewing this whole thing from a very naive and uninformed perspective. Maybe in your ideologically narrowed perspective you can solve the problem with hard ass statements and a tough guy approach (get your ass back to school) , but in the real world it don't work like that.

If WV wants to continue to be last in almost every category then continue to go down this path.

Frankly, If I were the governor, I would take a much harder line stance.

 

[GK4Herd]

If WV wants to continue to be last in almost every category then continue to go down this path.

Frankly, If I were the governor, I would take a much harder line stance.

I know you would. That stance would fail miserably. And now I want you to explain how denying the raise and putting us back in class will miraculously elevate education in WV..

Maybe if teachers took a vow of poverty and maintained a regimen of self-flagellation followed by self-immolation at retirement (so we didn’t burden the taxpayers with our costly retirement) we would elevate to the top 10 in the nation in education, reverse generational poverty, and cure the widespread drug addiction in our state as well.

 

[trailherd]

On the conference committee, since they are past the 51st day, they have 3 days to resolve the differences or be disbanded.

If they come to a resolution, it has to be filed at least one day prior to coming to a vote unless a 2/3 majority agree that it can be considered immediately.

The conference committee is only supposed to resolve the difference between the bills, but they often compromise with things that are outside that scope.

I am not sure this can be resolved in conference, it feels a lot like the budget situation last year. However, if they resolve something, I think it will look like this: they will keep the senates 4% but then keep the 1+1 in the next two years that is already in law (signed by the governor 2 weeks ago). Then the Senate can say their 4% won, and the house can claim they got the teachers 6%.

I'm not sure that'll end the strike, even if they could agree to that.

 

[GreenDuke]

Teachers cannot make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Until America comes to grip with why so many children show up at the school door facing massive obstacles to learning before they even get to school teachers will spend way to much time doing the job that should be done at home. Just think of all the things teachers are doing to help students, stuff that is the PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY. I’ve never been a teacher and remember my teachers being good, bad, and indifferent. That said I still support them

 

[countryroads89]

 

[i am herdman]

I know you would. That stance would fail miserably. And now I want you to explain how denying the raise and putting us back in class will miraculously elevate education in WV..

Maybe if teachers took a vow of poverty and maintained a regimen of self-flagellation followed by self-immolation at retirement (so we didn’t burden the taxpayers with our costly retirement) we would elevate to the top 10 in the nation in education, reverse generational poverty, and cure the widespread drug addiction in our state as well.

You getting a 5% raise or not is not going to elevate education in WV. I have no issue with teachers wanting a raise. It is hard work, thankless, and important. That being said, walking of the that job is no the right thing to. If a teacher is making 40 grand a year then, they are not going to be a great teacher if they make 42 grand a year. In 3 of r 4 years the teachers will be after the same thing.

Never wanting to have your health care cost go up is unreasonable. Most everyone is America has seen their health care cost go up in the last few years. Your rates are comparatively low. Everybody is going to pay more. You can't expect the state to fix a flawed system and you get a raise in a matter of weeks or even months.

Now you tell me how teachers getting raise is going to elevate education in WV?

And, my stance as hypothetical governor has nothing to do with emotion or who deserves what. My job as governor is to run a state and I would not have my education system shut down.

 

[GK4Herd]

On the conference committee, since they are past the 51st day, they have 3 days to resolve the differences or be disbanded.

If they come to a resolution, it has to be filed at least one day prior to coming to a vote unless a 2/3 majority agree that it can be considered immediately.

The conference committee is only supposed to resolve the difference between the bills, but they often compromise with things that are outside that scope.

I am not sure this can be resolved in conference, it feels a lot like the budget situation last year. However, if they resolve something, I think it will look like this: they will keep the senates 4% but then keep the 1+1 in the next two years that is already in law (signed by the governor 2 weeks ago). Then the Senate can say their 4% won, and the house can claim they got the teachers 6%.

I'm not sure that'll end the strike, even if they could agree to that.

Thanks trail. I've heard all the stuff you said in bits and pieces, so it's great to get it all on one page.

 

[big_country90]

Frankly, if I were a superintendent, I would order schools open and I would call in substitute teachers. Somebody would do it. Maybe not many, but somebody would.

As I stated before many times, there's a Simpsons episode for that.

 

[big_country90]

 

[i am herdman]

How long were democrats in charge?

 

[GreenDuke]

How long were democrats in charge?

About 8 decades

 

[GK4Herd]

I think our legislators missed this episode when they were kids...

 

[countryroads89]

How long were democrats in charge?

Who is in charge right now? In both the governor’s house and the legislature?

You can’t blame the current screwup on anyone else.

 

[countryroads89]

Now you tell me how teachers getting raise is going to elevate education.

Here is one way: with better pay, the next teacher to retire in a year or two will have their position backfilled. With better pay, you may attract more teachers to apply for the position.

You’re welcome.

 

[i am herdman]

Here is one way: with better pay, the next teacher to retire in a year or two will have their position backfilled. With better pay, you may attract more teachers to apply for the position.

You’re welcome.

Really? From where? People moving into the state? Competing for other jobs in WV? Only education majors can teach in WV so it is not like you are competing from other sectors for employees.

Oh and WV teachers "bid" on jobs based on seniority. They don't necessarily interview for jobs. The older teachers bump the younger teachers based on seniority and not necessarily performance, reviews, or recommendations.

if you want to pay more money, why don't introduce some competition? Whoops WVEA won't like that.