Does DD understand how to coach defense?
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My thoughts? This thread is terrible.
No this thread is not terrible. My impression is simply that Dan hopes to out score our opponents. Sometimes it looks like they play defense but when you look at the entire season you do have to wonder about defense. Still I think this team exceeded our expectations overall and the future is bright. Hope Dan can find another James Kelly. If he is going to continue recruiting players from overseas then just go to Huntington Prep. Those players make the Herds Serbians look well just plain poor as players. Still the Herd - in conference play, was fun to watch and we should be better next year.
I was behind the bench. I could hear Danny. It was due to the lack of defense by a couple starters that they sat on the bench the latter part of the game. I hope a lesson was learned.
Danny will learn that while you can run pro offense in college, you can't necessarily do that in college. Why would I say that; here are the reasons:
1. You don't get 6 fouls.
2. Most teams have better players across the board than he has; and will have for several more years.
3. Tall and length matter in college as there is more disparity in college with this than in the pros.
4. There aren't 50, or whatever number, games.
5. Kids can't run for 40 minutes and without playing some zone he is wearing them out and their effectiveness on D will be miserable (as we've seen) in the later stages of the games; at least until he has much, much, much more depth.
Just my observations and opinions; I'm WHF2 and I approve this message. (hehe)
1. You don't get 6 fouls.
2. Most teams have better players across the board than he has; and will have for several more years.
3. Tall and length matter in college as there is more disparity in college with this than in the pros.
4. There aren't 50, or whatever number, games.
5. Kids can't run for 40 minutes and without playing some zone he is wearing them out and their effectiveness on D will be miserable (as we've seen) in the later stages of the games; at least until he has much, much, much more depth.
Just my observations and opinions; I'm WHF2 and I approve this message. (hehe)
Yeah, well, maybe you ought to have applied for coach d's position when it was open since you all seem to know so much more about the game than he does.
OMG really guys? I mean we are in year 2 of a total makeover of our program and all you can do is come on here and bi@#$! Once we got Elmore in the lineup we were a totally different team. Why can't kids run for 40 minutes? I mean we have a bench that DD used and is developing. Some of the kids on the bench just need some more time to develop. Look at the development of Thompson this year alone.. Last time I looked the goal of every game is to score more points than the other team. Our offense creates plenty of turn overs. This team will be better next year just give it time remember Rome was not built in a day!
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Defense was bad, but it's not as simple as just saying the coach doesn't know defense. That's a dumb approach to looking at how we play.
There are many working parts:
1) Our rotations were slow and we're not crisp. You can blame coaching on some of that.
2) Our lack of depth doesn't allow us to use full court pressure like Dan likes and when our bigs get fouls, they have to sidestep penetrators so they can stay on the floor.
3) We have a lack of diversity on defense because of our personnel. We couldn't give full court man looks because we lack depth and would wear out (like I mentioned above) and we couldnt give zone looks because we don't have any length. We are short at every position except PG. You have to have length to play a zone.
Basically, yes, our defense was bad. But it was mostly because Dan's hands were tied with what he could do defensively. Since his hands were so tied defensively, he knew his best chance to win was to get games into the 90s and hope that took our opponents out of their game...which it often did. We were a pain in the ass for teams to play against because of how we played. Next season will be a little different though. We won't score as much because we won't have Kelly, but I don't think we'll have to because Dan will have some more toys to play with defensively. His hands won't be tied as much as they were this season.
There are many working parts:
1) Our rotations were slow and we're not crisp. You can blame coaching on some of that.
2) Our lack of depth doesn't allow us to use full court pressure like Dan likes and when our bigs get fouls, they have to sidestep penetrators so they can stay on the floor.
3) We have a lack of diversity on defense because of our personnel. We couldn't give full court man looks because we lack depth and would wear out (like I mentioned above) and we couldnt give zone looks because we don't have any length. We are short at every position except PG. You have to have length to play a zone.
Basically, yes, our defense was bad. But it was mostly because Dan's hands were tied with what he could do defensively. Since his hands were so tied defensively, he knew his best chance to win was to get games into the 90s and hope that took our opponents out of their game...which it often did. We were a pain in the ass for teams to play against because of how we played. Next season will be a little different though. We won't score as much because we won't have Kelly, but I don't think we'll have to because Dan will have some more toys to play with defensively. His hands won't be tied as much as they were this season.
Considering the difference between this season and last season - might want to see what develops in the off season as well as exhibition games with regards to the ability of Danny to coach D.
Do agree however with a few of the points made by WHF2 - think the consensus is , this is not the NBA...which I am certain Danny understands..lol.
Happy at the season results , no , better than what many expected , yes , two years is not enough time to legally flip a program.
Do agree however with a few of the points made by WHF2 - think the consensus is , this is not the NBA...which I am certain Danny understands..lol.
Happy at the season results , no , better than what many expected , yes , two years is not enough time to legally flip a program.
One, unfortunately, was a Senior and 1st Team All-Conference. Mr. Kelly is a heck of a basketball player, but has much to work on defensively; from footwork to effort.
I think the strategy behind the whole fast pace offense is hoping that the opponent offense will try to slow the game down and that will give them time to set for defense. I have been to most the conference game at home and the two home game they lost was UAB and LTech. Both of those game opponent didn't try to slow the game down; just like the game on Saturday. I believe Coach DD knows what he is doing just with a short bench and players get tired quick playing fast pace. Also look at the free throw comparison Herd 19 at 47% to their 41 76%. Any team that get 41 free throw attempts should never lose.
To me Dan can take a note from Kermit Davis how switching defenses can keep offenses off balance. I think a simple adjustment this season would have been to play "pack" man to man. All that really means is that you're not going for steals off the ball but protecting the paint/drive lanes, playing exaggerated help defense. If we are going to play without rim protectors we better have a group mentality about it.
no one is bitching, no one wants Dan fired but this topic does make for a good conversation. Can we just talk sports, and more importantly talk about "our team" in an objective manner.
Just sayin...
Lemme give this a shot (apologies to those that have read this stuff before -- broken record I know).
As it stands now, the DD philosophy (inasmuch as a non-staff / non-player individual can glean) is a tweak on what he learned and played-in under Ellis Johnson, who learned it from Rivlin and Henderson, and what he coached as an assist. with MD in the NBA. It is a system similar to that used by Herd alumnus and former college bball coach Sonny Allen (Old Dominion, Nevada), a system that was a heavy influence on Paul Westhead (1980 Lakers championship; Loyola-Marymount late 80s -- Guru of Go). As with most coaches, this system will continue to evolve, etc. As it is right now, here is what is evident (from watching and reading).
It is a decidedly offense-centric system -- (as opposed to defense-oriented as Georgetown's John Thompson or Temple's John Chaney were, for example). It is a high-pressure offense. It is predicated on on forcing opposing teams to keep-up -- in 95% of those instances, the opposition is not comfortable with a high-pace. These types of systems cause the opposition into more turnovers, poorer defense, and poor shot selection. With the caveat -- the defense still has to be there. It does not have to be lock-down and turnover-generating of its own (the pace will help with that), but it cannot be porous (see last game against MTSU). Overall, MU played ave. defense in the conference season. At times, such as home games against MTSU and ODU, the defense was stellar: Browning, Elmore, Burks (and to a surprising degree to those not paying attention - Loop) did an outstanding job of slowing down the cogs in those two offensive wheels: Giddy Potts and Trey Freeman. At other times, the defense was porous -- esp. in the home stretch of the conf. schedule when depth (exposed by foul trouble for Taylor, and to a lesser degree, Kelly) was an issue. In those games, MU struggled to win or suffered losses.
Next season, with greater depth, the defense will improve noticeably because the Herd will have the depth (and fouls) to withstand any officiating issues and/or strategies to drive the ball at the bigs (e.g., Taylor and Kelly).
As far as the specifics of the defense, the way it was played this season, the guards over-played the center of the court (the foul lane extended to the hash near mid-court), and tried to force the ball onto one half of the floor or the other. This "allows" the ball-handler to get by the defender if he chooses, but if he doesn't take a hard angle to the basket, then the ball-handler tends to drift to the three point line and sideline, which is when the Herd would usually spring Taylor or Kelly on a trap with the defending guard; the opposite post defender would try to cut off the passing lane to the post-player and get a cheap steal, or force the ball back out. The remaining defenders zone the typical passing lanes trying to pilfer passes. This defense was very effective in the second half of the USM game, and several defensive turnovers forced by the traps resulted in easy baskets (e.g., think JK's intercept and dunk with under a minute to go in regulation) in leading to the comeback. There is a bit of a zone-principle involved in this man-to-man scheme -- the guards switching off on guard-through motion, as well as post-defenders switching when post-players rotated block-to-block or low-to-high/high-to-low.
There were some issues with personnel (IMO - on the blocks) on the defensive side. Some physical, some mental. All of which can (and will be) addressed in the off season in a few ways. The biggest thing is that you cannot play defense timidly or with fear of fouling -- when there are depth issues (and perhaps officiating issues), the defense at certain positions gets timid and becomes ineffective. Depth will help this deficiency immensely.
Moreover, there were shades of the future thrown out there on defense at times this season, including the use of full-court pressure (such as man-trapping presses, full court zone trapping presses, etc.) that will evolve and be utilized more next season because of better depth. While MU under DD will most likely never approach the defensive tactics/style of Paul Westhead's Loyola-Marymount teams (and make no mistake, they played pressure defense), it will cut against the perception that the D'antoni's don't coach and don't like defense, and it will be used selectively to ramp up the pace of play and get the opposition out of its game.
FWIW.
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For one thing, Olen, I think Danny has come to grips, albeit somewhat reluctantly, with the fact that Basketball in 2015-16 IS NOT THE SAME ANIMAL AS HIS AND ELLIS JOHNSON'S GAME A HALF A CENTURY AGO!!!!!
Danny has talked/bragged about the "IRON 5" team in his day, playing without subbing out, etc. Well, reality is that today's college basketball player is better trained, has more in way of off season conditioning, training techniques, strength and conditioning regimens, etc. Not to mention athletes are just "naturally" bigger and stronger, for whatever reason. Think back to Danny's era, if you were around then. At that time, mid-late 60s, an NFL lineman tipping the scales at 300+ pounds was an "oddity", not the norm like today. In college BB today, you don't find too many 6'0", 140 or 145 pound white guards from a place like Mullens, WV, playing 40, or almost 40, minutes a game, game after game in D1 basketball. Today's regular season schedule consists normally of 31 games; in Danny's day, it was 24. A big difference.
Defense in today's game requires that a team have enough "athleticism" in sufficiently quantity, i.e., numbers of players, to play the game at the mid/high D1 level for 30+ games a season. As a team, we lack that athleticism overall, and certainly in sufficient numbers. Don't get me started on our bench starting at #s 8-14!!!
I'm not understanding your point(s) - are you disagreeing or agreeing, because I can't tell.
Of course today's game is different than that which he played - but it is a style of play that has been around for well over 60 years, and a style that is re-emerging (esp. in the pro game). Just because DD has bragged about how he/they played in his day that does not mean that DD WANTS to play in the same way (i.e. - an Iron Five).
Frankly, the success in Jan. probably caught everyone by surprise. My guess is IF MU had not sprinted out to the hot conference start, DD would have played a lot more bodies and been building for the next couple of seasons. Instead, as with any streak of success, folks try to ride the success as far as possible. The Herd ride lasted through the end of the season, sputtering at the end a bit.
There is no question that DD knows that it takes bodies to play 40 mins of high-tempo basketball across 30-31 scheduled games + conf. tourney game(s).
Just trying to point out a factor or two. Danny had little to NO experience with the college game prior to the MU job. Remember him being asked, whether on his radio show or TV show, about the up tempo paced offense and effect on players' stamina, endurance, etc. His reply was, rather matter of factly, about his team under Ellis Johnson and how they played the Iron 5 roles, how he never wanted to sub out, etc. Now, as I noted, the game is a lot different, the athletes, too, and I think that Danny has realized that as the season has progressed. Sure he is planning adjustments, changes, personnel roles, etc., as he and his staff prepare for season 3. Not wanting to be over critical, if that's what it appears I was, and I certainly credit Danny, and staff, for being smart enough, and experienced overall in game of basketball, to make changes, adjustments, etc., as he continues building his version of the Marshall BB program.
