Kent State history...where do you stan

[GK4Herd]

Whenever I go to Marshall games with my family I try to take in the local museums, historical sites, etc. Visiting the Lorraine Hotel in Memphis and the School Book Depository in Dallas are examples. Yesterday before the game I took my family to the May 4th Museum on the Kent campus. This is a museum that highlights the May 4th, 1970 Ohio National Guard shooting of the Kent State students. I walked the common area and took the walking tour that recreated the events. There was a memorial set up on the spot where each kid died. Some of the pictures from that event are iconic and it's kind of a strange feeling to stand in the spot that they took place. I enjoyed my visit and found the museum excellent in depicting the turbulence of that era.

I think I know where most stand from your posting history, but I'm curious about your thoughts. I've been known to be somewhat fiscally conservative, but I can't stand with a conservative viewpoint on this. The National Guards putting bullets into those kids was an amazingly poor decision. It rests on the shoulders of the Ohio Governor.

The night before the ROTC building was destroyed and burned to the ground. Of course the destruction of property is wrong and I would fully support the full prosecution of those found guilty. But does the arson and destruction of that building give the right to shoot bullets into a crowd of kids who are doing nothing but exercising their constitutional right to assemble and protest the invasion of Cambodia? Some kids threw rocks at the NG. Again...wrong. But spray the crowd for the acts of a few?

I think it was a sad time in our history. Hopefully we've learned. But where do you stand?

 

[extragreen]

What if you knew her
And found her dead on the ground

 

[GK4Herd]

What if you knew her
And found her dead on the ground

How can you run when you know?

 

[extragreen]

And there you have it.

 

[extragreen]

 

[GK4Herd]

That's the photo I was referencing EG. The kids name was Jeffery Miller. The girl in the picture, Mary Ann Vecchio, is only 14 years old and was a runaway. Here is what the memorial looks like today...

 

[extragreen]

Just by the looks of it in the picture, that memorial sucks.

 

[GK4Herd]

The area that the kids were shot in was and is a parking lot. I parked right beside of one of the memorials and didn't realize it till I was taking the tour. The parking lot is fully functional and two of these markers have parking spaces on both sides of them. The museum was very well done and there are better done memorials in the area. These just basically mark the spot where the kids died. People place rocks on top of the posts. I have no clue the significance of that other than maybe making a statement these kids died because rocks were thrown. No clue if that's correct or not.

 

[imherdfan]

My roommate for a year when I was at Marshall had been a NG'sman that was there that day. He would never talk about it, then one evening when he and I were sitting around and maybe dabbling in some sort of herb that would spark deeper conversation, he actually talked about it. He was called to testify, but after interviewing him, he was put on active duty and sent to Germany right after basic. He was spared Vietnam, but they wanted him far away. He was very disturbed about the whole thing.

 

[imherdfan]

And I stand firmly that it was a totally unnecessary action and those 4 dead were on the hands of the governor.

 

[i am herdman]

The National Guard troops were put in a bad position and I know a Ohio law enforcement official who was around at the time and he did say things were about to get out of out hand, like really bad at Kent State. Hence the governor calling in the National Guard as prescribed by state and federal authority.This thing was not a peaceful protest of folks singing Peter, Paul, and Mary songs while in a semi-circle. There was a state of emergency issued.

The troops should have not shot, nor been ordered to shoot and should not have obeyed the order. However, not having walked in those shoes I am not going to cast stones. The National Guard troops lost their composure and their chain of command should have never allowed for live fire of weapons. They could have employed riot gear and taken charge. Remember, the "kids" protesting were too pussy to go to in the military so they would have folded like a cheap tent. Terrible command decision.

That being said, I have little or no respect for the war protesters and spoiled brat hippies that were protesting wars, burning draft cards, and acting like imbeciles during that period while their fellow countrymen were wearing the uniform on their county thousands a miles away in a rice paddy get their ass shot off.

You start burning state and federal property and you are asking for trouble. You want a peaceful protest then have it as your American rights say so. You start burning shi* down then you have crossed the line. You start hurling rocks, Molotov cocktails and police and military personnel, then you have an issue.

All in all a bad and terrible dark day and situation that in retrospect could have been avoided.

 

[i am herdman]

Oh and remember these infested hippies are now the ones in charge and have raised children who have turned out to be screwed up as well. No you know why the country is going down the shitter.

That being said they didn't deserve to get shot and killed.

 

[GK4Herd]

That being said they didn't deserve to get shot and killed.

You use the word "they" like the ones who were killed were the personification and embodiment of everything you find repulsive in that era. It's like you don't have the ability to hone in on a single issue. This is really simple. These kids were exercising their constitutional right to assemble and protest. Read the story on the Krause girl. She was by all accounts a great kid that was involved in her church and community. She worked with handicapped kids. She was walking to class when she was gunned down. She disagreed with the war, but so what. Do you deserve being gunned down by your own government for that? You might try digging a little deeper and try seeing things for the truth in them even if what you find out goes against your own held beliefs and vision of those dirty hippies.

Everything isn't "damn dirty commies...and vaginafication of America". That's just something that you can latch onto without really offering anything significant to the conversation. I must say though, you neither surprise nor disappoint.

 

[extragreen]

The area that the kids were shot in was and is a parking lot. I parked right beside of one of the memorials and didn't realize it till I was taking the tour. The parking lot is fully functional and two of these markers have parking spaces on both sides of them. The museum was very well done and there are better done memorials in the area. These just basically mark the spot where the kids died. People place rocks on top of the posts. I have no clue the significance of that other than maybe making a statement these kids died because rocks were thrown. No clue if that's correct or not.

Would loved to have seen the better done memorials.

 

[extragreen]

" Remember, the "kids" protesting were too pussy to go to in the military so they would have folded like a cheap tent"

You will never understand that the protesters were protesting the fact that their military brothers were being killed in rice fields for NO PRACTICAL REASON. One of the four was a girl walking to class, another was shot in the back. Furthermore, the Ohio governor flew to Kent and at a press conference, he issued a provocative statement calling campus protestors the worst type of people in America and stating that every force of law would be used to deal with them. Of the nine wounded, 2 were 60 feet away, one was 100 feet away, one was 225 feet away, one was 300 feet away, one at 330 feet, one at 375 feet, one at 500 feet, and one at 750 feet.

Maybe it was the national guard folding like a tent.

 

[GK4Herd]

" Remember, the "kids" protesting were too pussy to go to in the military so they would have folded like a cheap tent"

Once again you are combining all of your preconceived notions that embody your rant and conveniently use this as though you are arguing specifics. Try to follow along. These kids were NOT draft dodgers. (You know...the kids we are arguing about.) Two of them were girls for crying out loud and exempt from the draft to begin with. Try to follow the discussion. Sometimes that actually involves learning the facts and judging them independently even if it goes against your previously held ideology.

Talk about vaginafication. Vaginafication to me is when a person wraps fuzzy and distorted information that protects their own point of view around an argument in order to prevent themselves from actually having to deal with information that just might shake the foundations of their belief system. I'd hate to be such a wuss that I was afraid to argue on an actuall intellectually honest level in fear that I could not protect the simplistic image I have of the world. I use to believe exactly like you. But then I decided to look at the facts honestly. Rather than ignoring and distorting, I changed my point of view. That takes a whole lot more courage then to spout the talking points of a political view that you can blindly follow because you wrap it around a distorted world view that lacks any real accountability to truth.

These are the dirty hippies that lost their lives that day...

Man...those are some real worthless looking individuals. Lol

 

[i am herdman]

Good Lord, I said they didn't deserve to die. I mean that. What more can I say.

But, I would request that you all dig deeper into what was going on at Kent Ohio.

The town was being overrun by hoodlems, biker gangs, militants, etc. Read up on it and I know from a law enforcement official at the time in Ohio. The local police, sheriff, and Highway Patrol could not handle it alone. Hence, the governor calling in the National Guard. Furthermore, when the US Army Reserve Officer Training Corps building went up in flames by the "peaceful" protesters it was about to become a federal problem and get much bigger.

These kids did not deserve to die, but you have to look at the bigger picture of what was going on. Businesses were being ransacked, Kent, Ohio was going looking like Ferguson, MO.

It was necessarily the peaceful protesters causing the problems. They were being used as pawns similiar to what is going on in Ferguson. Outside thugs were tearing the town and school to shi*.

Nixon was about to send in the 82nd Airborne. Look it up. The governor of Ohio had no choice but to try to clean this up before it spread further into other cities and other campuses in his state.

The mistake, tragically, were the killing of innocent people. There were reports of sniper fire and that is when things really took a turn for the worst.

Look at the events of what lead up to this.

 

[i am herdman]

Unfortunately these young people were killed as I stated by a terrible command decision.

Maybe you all should read what I wrote instead of assuming things. That is the way things end up most of the time, someone innocent getting killed.

 

[i am herdman]

 

[i am herdman]

 

[i am herdman]

 

[GK4Herd]

I have looked into it herdman. The people that burned down the ROTC building were brought to trial. Many were convicted and served time...rightfully so. Many were acquitted. None of them were the kids shot and killed or maimed. You cannot justify the decision at Kent State to spray bullets into a crowd for the turbulence you abhor that was happening in our country at the time.

 

[extragreen]

No one is assuming things, other than you. For one, you assume the burning of a rotc building is some big loss of property when the building had already been boarded up by the university and was going to be torn down. You assume the students set the building on fire, while this is altogether unknown. You assume the protesters are dirty hippies, while they were attending college. You assume they were spoiled brat dirty hippies that were draft dodgers, while you are unaware that the National Guard was the chief safe haven for those attempting to avoid being sent to Viet Nam.

 

[GK4Herd]

By the way...good to see you here herdman.

 

[i am herdman]

I have looked into it herdman. The people that burned down the ROTC building were brought to trial. Many were convicted and served time...rightfully so. Many were acquitted. None of them were the kids shot and killed or maimed. You cannot justify the decision at Kent State to spray bullets into a crowd for the turbulence you abhor that was happening in our country at the time.

I was not trying to justify the shooting of the students. If you would read what I wrote and get past the emotion of it I said terrible mistakes were made. I was out lining the history of it and what happened.

 

[i am herdman]

No one is assuming things, other than you. For one, you assume the burning of a rotc building is some big loss of property when the building had already been boarded up by the university and was going to be torn down. You assume the students set the building on fire, while this is altogether unknown. You assume the protesters are dirty hippies, while they were attending college. You assume they were spoiled brat dirty hippies that were draft dodgers, while you are unaware that the National Guard was the chief safe haven for those attempting to avoid being sent to Viet Nam.

Look at what happened to the tow, suppossed gun fire and attacks on law enforcement. Kent OH was a powder keg. There were others protesting and raising heck other than students. That being said the students should have never been shot. I think we all agree it should have been an avoidable tragedy.

 

[extragreen]

Look at what happened to the tow, suppossed gun fire and attacks on law enforcement. Kent OH was a powder keg. There were others protesting and raising heck other than students. That being said the students should have never been shot.

What's a tow? And yet again, "supposed" gunfire. Still making assumptions.

 

[Herd Fever]

Whenever I go to Marshall games with my family I try to take in the local museums, historical sites, etc. Visiting the Lorraine Hotel in Memphis and the School Book Depository in Dallas are examples. Yesterday before the game I took my family to the May 4th Museum on the Kent campus. This is a museum that highlights the May 4th, 1970 Ohio National Guard shooting of the Kent State students. I walked the common area and took the walking tour that recreated the events. There was a memorial set up on the spot where each kid died. Some of the pictures from that event are iconic and it's kind of a strange feeling to stand in the spot that they took place. I enjoyed my visit and found the museum excellent in depicting the turbulence of that era.

I think I know where most stand from your posting history, but I'm curious about your thoughts. I've been known to be somewhat fiscally conservative, but I can't stand with a conservative viewpoint on this. The National Guards putting bullets into those kids was an amazingly poor decision. It rests on the shoulders of the Ohio Governor.

The night before the ROTC building was destroyed and burned to the ground. Of course the destruction of property is wrong and I would fully support the full prosecution of those found guilty. But does the arson and destruction of that building give the right to shoot bullets into a crowd of kids who are doing nothing but exercising their constitutional right to assemble and protest the invasion of Cambodia? Some kids threw rocks at the NG. Again...wrong. But spray the crowd for the acts of a few?

I think it was a sad time in our history. Hopefully we've learned. But where do you stand?

My Health teacher in HS was in that crowd and has a plate in his leg because of it

 

[i am herdman]

What's a tow? And yet again, "supposed" gunfire. Still making assumptions.

"town"

I said alleged gunfire. He said she said.

What would you have done if you were the governor. Set and let them destroy a campus and hurl rocks and other objects at police, firemen, etc?

Oh yehh, they cut the firehouses when the firemen were trying to put fires out. Hurled rocks and objects at a National Guard general as he tried to disperse the crowd the day before.

Again, I agree with you these young people should not have been shot to death.

But as Nixon said, when peaceful protest turns violent it leads to tragedy.

 

[i am herdman]

My Health teacher in HS was in that crowd and has a plate in his leg because of it

I bet he was at wood stock as well. LOL

 

[i am herdman]

I have looked into it herdman. The people that burned down the ROTC building were brought to trial. Many were convicted and served time...rightfully so. Many were acquitted. None of them were the kids shot and killed or maimed. You cannot justify the decision at Kent State to spray bullets into a crowd for the turbulence you abhor that was happening in our country at the time.

GK, I am not disagreeing with you.

 

[Herd Fever]

Facts and I am Herdman is like Water and Oil. It just don't mix

 

[Herd Fever]

I bet he was at wood stock as well. LOL

Probably, but who cares though. Fact of the matter is, he was there going to school at Kent State when he was shot in the leg. He wasn't even protesting but just walking to class and got hit from a sniper

 

[i am herdman]

Probably, but who cares though. Fact of the matter is, he was there going to school at Kent State when he was shot in the leg. He wasn't even protesting but just walking to class and got hit from a sniper

I am sure he did. What was his name. It is available on the public records.

 

[Herd Fever]

To be honest with you, I don't remember its been 15 years since I had his class. I just remember him talking about it in class on the anniversary

 

[i am herdman]

To be honest with you, I don't remember its been 15 years since I had his class. I just remember him talking about it in class on the anniversary

So you can't remember a teacher's name that was shot at Kent State and share his story with you in high school? WTF, man?

Hell, I can remember my kindergarten teacher's name.

Here are the list of those wounded

Wounded (and approximate distance from the National Guard):

• Joseph Lewis Jr.; 71 ft (22 m); hit twice in the right abdomen and left lower leg
• John R. Cleary; 110 ft (34 m); upper left chest wound
• Thomas Mark Grace; 225 ft (69 m); struck in left ankle
• Alan Michael Canfora; 225 ft (69 m); hit in his right wrist
• Dean R. Kahler; 300 ft (91 m); back wound fracturing the vertebrae, permanently paralyzed from the chest down
• Douglas Alan Wrentmore; 329 ft (100 m); hit in his right knee
• James Dennis Russell; 375 ft (114 m); hit in his right thigh from a bullet and in the right forehead by birdshot, both wounds minor
• Robert Follis Stamps; 495 ft (151 m); hit in his right buttock
• Donald Scott MacKenzie; 750 ft (230 m); neck wound

 

[Herd Fever]

So you can't remember a teacher's name that was shot at Kent State and share his story with you in high school? WTF, man?

Hell, I can remember my kindergarten teacher's name.

Here are the list of those wounded

Wounded (and approximate distance from the National Guard):

• Joseph Lewis Jr.; 71 ft (22 m); hit twice in the right abdomen and left lower leg
• John R. Cleary; 110 ft (34 m); upper left chest wound
• Thomas Mark Grace; 225 ft (69 m); struck in left ankle
• Alan Michael Canfora; 225 ft (69 m); hit in his right wrist
• Dean R. Kahler; 300 ft (91 m); back wound fracturing the vertebrae, permanently paralyzed from the chest down
• Douglas Alan Wrentmore; 329 ft (100 m); hit in his right knee
• James Dennis Russell; 375 ft (114 m); hit in his right thigh from a bullet and in the right forehead by birdshot, both wounds minor
• Robert Follis Stamps; 495 ft (151 m); hit in his right buttock
• Donald Scott MacKenzie; 750 ft (230 m); neck wound

Great you can remember your kindergarten Teacher. Someone applaud this man

 

[i am herdman]

Great you can remember your kindergarten Teacher. Someone applaud this man

So look at the names above and I am sure you could narrow it down. It is an interesting piece of history.

Narrow it down to males with leg wounds and surely we can figure this thing out.

 

[i am herdman]

Oh in 2010 a 40 year old audio tape was analyzed with modern techniques. It says that before the troops started firing a handgun, consistent with audio tones of a 38 revolver were fired.

 

[extragreen]

The guard carried hand guns.