Killing the Goose

[TheGreenhouseEffect]

http://www.wvgazettemail.com/sports/20160513/mitch-vingle-not-being-silent-on-knight-commission

In a time when many college graduates are graduating deep in debt I find these moves , these posturing ideas, created by ATTORNEYS to start the money rolling so that later they may inject themselves into the process to take their fees, disgusting.

When an unbiased journalist that bleeds Michigan blue and WVu NEW gold is making statements about his schools over paid coaches and the money grab that has followed the Big 12 fodder move, things are taking a turn for the worse.

I too am convinced we are headed in a bad direction. The most hilarious part of the article is the pimping out by Kuger asking openly "what is our athletes' time worth to you"? Does anyone remember paying 50.00 an hour to paint a factory cost us almost a decade of competitiveness and how many, 6 full scholarships by the NCAA ?!?!??! Now, he's asking $1000.00 and hour, I call that serious wage inflation!!!!? Heck we're going to need a union and bargaining rights on the payor side of the fence. Oh if it benefits programs with dinero, i.e. Pee 5 lets DO IT anyways!!!!! Get dat monies a comin!

So here's an interesting thought, a counter posture to the collegiate greed culture. What IF the Gee 5 doesn't allow pay outs? What if the Gee 5 all banded together and said, we aren't pimping out,,we are staying in the old model, you play, your get a scholarship and a chance for a degree worth $100,000.00 when your done. We actually advertise this on ESPN Fox 1 and CBSC to counter the Pee 5s greed and tout ourselves as college football, not pro. Honestly I've got Pro football and a1.4 BILLION dollar stadium 15 minutes from my house, and I could care less. We (The Gee 5) keep the game pure for what it is supposed to be, an amature game, played for the fun of the game? Crazy? Maybe. Still the model we are headed towards is a mini Pro model , thus the acronym P5 , P standing for pro certainly fits.

You watch, we are now slowly killing the goose that laid only the best of eggs, pure college football.

 

[A Cousin From Richmond]

So you're proposing that a group of schools, including Marshall, band together and not offer "pay" to their student athletes? All the while most other schools move forward with the idea?

Would you expect 18 year old kids to actually choose to attend these schools?

 

[GreenDuke]

If MU had anything special to offer the student in student/athlete it would work with recruits/ families of a certain mindset. 95% of the current roster would not fit this model.

 

[TheGreenhouseEffect]

Would

Hate to answer your question with a question but.....

1. Do you think the NFL is going to watch this money pay out and NOT start scheduling Saturday games prime time on all major TV outlets? Remember your now professional, your PAYING for performance.

2. Do you not think the offering of a free education, worth easily $100,000.00 isn't enough for many talented student athletes out there that won't get picked by the Pee Pro 5 to come play ball at a Marshall, or Fresno State or Boise ?

3. Finally where do the payouts end? Once that genie is out of the bottle, and Tejas , Tejas AM , Alabama Florida Ahia State all begin to collude on payout skeds , and can your precious couch burning institute afford to keep up with stadiums that sell out 95,000 plus when your current attendance is declining?

 

[A Cousin From Richmond]

1. Do you think the NFL is going to watch this money pay out and NOT start scheduling Saturday games prime time on all major TV outlets? Remember your now professional, your PAYING for performance.

The NFL already does this on a limited basis and it hasn't affected the popularity of college football one bit. However, the NFL is the most popular sport in the country, by far, even compared to college football, so I fail to see what it has to do with college football "pay"

2. Do you not think the offering of a free education, worth easily $100,000.00 isn't enough for many talented student athletes out there that won't get picked by the Pee Pro 5 to come play ball at a Marshall, or Fresno State or Boise ?

Why go to Marshall for a free scholarship when you can go to another school for a free scholarship plus additional cost of living expenses? These schools won't be eliminating scholarships when they begin giving additional pay. That's why your proposal of some kind of boycott by a group of schools doesn't make sense.

3. Finally where do the payouts end? Once that genie is out of the bottle, and Tejas , Tejas AM , Alabama Florida Ahia State all begin to collude on payout skeds , and can your precious couch burning institute afford to keep up with stadiums that sell out 95,000 plus when your current attendance is declining?

I don't think any WVU fans pretend we have the resources of Alabama, Ohio State, etc. I'm not sure what that has to do with your original point, though. I'd be more worried about fielding a team if you take the non-stipend approach you want to take than what WVU is doing.

 

[The Real SamC]

Vingleberry: WVU shill.

Gag-zette: 100% anti-Marshall paper. Not just in sports, editorial policy is opposed to the University's existence.

WVU: Loses money at sports, as does 95% of colleges at all levels.

Paying the players: The most idiotic idea in decades.

IF they start paying the players: The rich get richer. WVU ain't among the rich.

Bottom line: If a free education isn't enough for you, step on over to the med school (an easy walk up at Holeland) and talk to the other students working towards high (or not so high) paying jobs by spending multiple years (10 for a MD specialist) working for an (this one actually profitable) element of a college to earn their credentials to go pro).

Poor little football players. Have to give 3 years to go pro. Boo hoo. Bet the boys at Iwo Jima would have really thought that was unfair.

 

[TheGreenhouseEffect]

Oh , please understand I'm NOT about boycott. I'm about creating a NEW BRAND from the existing brand.

College Football Scholarship ONLY league. The league would be all G5 schools wanting to save college football from becoming a pro sport. Moreover we would publish annually the payouts given to players to endorsing media outlets to reaffirm we aren't selling out to the attorneys chomping at the bit to get the new pro college model approved.

Thus the P5 would be the Pro 5

And the G5 would be the SO5 Scholarship Only 5

Thus the brand we would only market is the current brand today. No agents , no attorneys , no contracts.

Straight scholly homie, as someone one said...

 

[A Cousin From Richmond]

Oh , please understand I'm NOT about boycott. I'm about creating a NEW BRAND from the existing brand.

College Football Scholarship ONLY league. The league would be all G5 schools wanting to save college football from becoming a pro sport. Moreover we would publish annually the payouts given to players to endorsing media outlets to reaffirm we aren't selling out to the attorneys chomping at the bit to get the new pro college model approved.

Thus the P5 would be the Pro 5

And the G5 would be the SO5 Scholarship Only 5

Thus the brand we would only market is the current brand today. No agents , no attorneys , no contracts.

Straight scholly homie, as someone one said...

And you expect recruits to sign with SO5 schools?

 

[-Olen-]

http://www.wvgazettemail.com/sports/20160513/mitch-vingle-not-being-silent-on-knight-commission

In a time when many college graduates are graduating deep in debt I find these moves , these posturing ideas, created by ATTORNEYS to start the money rolling so that later they may inject themselves into the process to take their fees, disgusting.

When an unbiased journalist that bleeds Michigan blue and WVu NEW gold is making statements about his schools over paid coaches and the money grab that has followed the Big 12 fodder move, things are taking a turn for the worse.

I too am convinced we are headed in a bad direction. The most hilarious part of the article is the pimping out by Kuger asking openly "what is our athletes' time worth to you"? Does anyone remember paying 50.00 an hour to paint a factory cost us almost a decade of competitiveness and how many, 6 full scholarships by the NCAA ?!?!??! Now, he's asking $1000.00 and hour, I call that serious wage inflation!!!!? Heck we're going to need a union and bargaining rights on the payor side of the fence. Oh if it benefits programs with dinero, i.e. Pee 5 lets DO IT anyways!!!!! Get dat monies a comin!

So here's an interesting thought, a counter posture to the collegiate greed culture. What IF the Gee 5 doesn't allow pay outs? What if the Gee 5 all banded together and said, we aren't pimping out,,we are staying in the old model, you play, your get a scholarship and a chance for a degree worth $100,000.00 when your done. We actually advertise this on ESPN Fox 1 and CBSC to counter the Pee 5s greed and tout ourselves as college football, not pro. Honestly I've got Pro football and a1.4 BILLION dollar stadium 15 minutes from my house, and I could care less. We (The Gee 5) keep the game pure for what it is supposed to be, an amature game, played for the fun of the game? Crazy? Maybe. Still the model we are headed towards is a mini Pro model , thus the acronym P5 , P standing for pro certainly fits.

You watch, we are now slowly killing the goose that laid only the best of eggs, pure college football.

I'm not going to go into the weeds on what you've proposed - and I'm going to try to not get to far into the weeds on the legal issues. But I do want to put a bit of Vingle's article into context.

The reference to Lon Krueger's question about college athletes appearing in advertising and being paid is a very specific issue in the broader realm of should/how of compensating college athletes. Krueger's specific question about athletes regards the selling of one's name/image/likeness (NIL), which is a right everyone enjoys as part of one's right of privacy / right of publicity. No one can use your NIL (without your permission) for profit; any profit from such unauthorized use is actionable violation of one's right of publicity.

The Sam Keller case resulted in the disgorgement of profits from EA Sports, the Collegiate Licensing Co., and the NCAA for the unauthorized use of athletes' NIL: (EA Sports profiting from sales, the CLC having brokered the license between the NCAA and EA Sports, and the NCAA for "controlling" the NIL's of its athletes). The O'Bannon case resulted in a ruling that the NCAA violated the Sherman Anti-Trust Act by preventing athletes from separately or collectively negotiating their NIL licenses and prohibiting the athletes from profiting from those licenses. That case is on appeal (with a petition before the US Supreme Court) - with the anti-trust ruling still in place but the payment scheme authorized by the district court judge in question.

There is no legally justifiable way to prevent an athlete from profiting from his/her NIL - and all prior attempts were illegal. This is something I realized when I first noticed EA Sport's NCAA Football game while in law school (and studying IP); I'm a bit peeved that I didn't get on this gravy train sooner (I kid).

The broader question about paying athletes beyond the traditional scholarship method, through full-cost of attendance or something different is a slightly different debate. However, if the NCAA can tame its own greed (as a 501(c)(3) or (c)(4) no less), it can cover these costs through the fees negotiated for the NCAA tourney. Look for the NCAA's greed to latch onto more control of football to capture revenue from that stream.

 

[TheGreenhouseEffect]

And you expect recruits to sign with SO5 schools?

For a college education worth up to $100,000.00 , I do. Don't they now?

I know I certainly would. Sounds like a good deal to the PharmD that just graduated with a $125,000.00 in college tuition fees , starting out making $50,000.00 at BEST.

If you so strongly feel that all athletes worthy of playing need to be paid, then why not just become a fan of ANY NFL team? They pay, you watch, it's pay for performance , which is what YOU feel is the best path. Why ruin college football because you feel your schools drunken brawl couch burning should be subsidized?

Why not just stay college? It's fun. I can be at the Falcons new 1.4 BILLION dollar stadium in 15 minutes , but I could care less about pro football.

Let's keep College , college!

 

[TheGreenhouseEffect]

The reference to Lon Krueger's question about college athletes appearing in advertising and being paid is a very specific issue in the broader realm of should/how of compensating college athletes. Krueger's specific question about athletes regards the selling of one's name/image/likeness (NIL), which is a right everyone enjoys as part of one's right of privacy / right of publicity. No one can use your NIL (without your permission) for profit; any profit from such unauthorized use is actionable violation of one's right of publicity.

The Sam Keller case resulted in the disgorgement of profits from EA Sports, the Collegiate Licensing Co., and the NCAA for the unauthorized use of athletes' NIL: (EA Sports profiting from sales, the CLC having brokered the license between the NCAA and EA Sports, and the NCAA for "controlling" the NIL's of its athletes). The O'Bannon case resulted in a ruling that the NCAA violated the Sherman Anti-Trust Act by preventing athletes from separately or collectively negotiating their NIL licenses and prohibiting the athletes from profiting from those licenses. That case is on appeal (with a petition before the US Supreme Court) - with the anti-trust ruling still in place but the payment scheme authorized by the district court judge in question.

There is no legally justifiable way to prevent an athlete from profiting from his/her NIL - and all prior attempts were illegal. This is something I realized when I first noticed EA Sport's NCAA Football game while in law school (and studying IP); I'm a bit peeved that I didn't get on this gravy train sooner (I kid).

The broader question about paying athletes beyond the traditional scholarship method, through full-cost of attendance or something different is a slightly different debate. However, if the NCAA can tame its own greed (as a 501(c)(3) or (c)(4) no less), it can cover these costs through the fees negotiated for the NCAA tourney. Look for the NCAA's greed to latch onto more control of football to capture revenue from that stream.

This reply is obviously a well thought out brilliant LEGAL response. Which is EXACTLY what I hope College Football DOESNT become.

Let's keep College Football, college!

 

[bigoherd2]

With all due respect Greenhouse, a kid can walk out of pharmacy school and make WAY more than $50,000 with any major chain drug store in the U.S. A PharmD, (Doctor of pharmacy), would command Way, WAY more than that!

 

[oldeherd]

This reply is obviously a well thought out brilliant LEGAL response. Which is EXACTLY what I hope College Football DOESNT become.

Let's keep College Football, college!

Well, I'm just waiting for some of the recently passed "cost of attendance" abuses to start piling up before jumping on the bandwagon for more $$$ going to these "student athletes". Just wonder what all this coa money goes for. If it includes money to pay for transportation, lodging, food, etc., for an athlete's family to go to his team's games, then just what is included. Say MU has 11 games a year, does a player get coa money for his parent or parents to attend ALL 11 games? Are other family members included? Many athletes come from large families where, sad to sad, they have siblings from multiple parents/ usually fathers. So a player has 5 or 6 step brothers/sisters, and those have one mother and 3-4 fathers involved. Just how many of those people are included on the athlete's coa money to make a trip, on MU's dime, to Huntington 6 or 7 times a year? 2? 4/ 10? A whole damn posse? Just think that the genie is out of the bottle and more and more items, meaning $$$$, is going to be added to the cost of attendance pot. Meaning that the power 5 teams will have a lot easier time ponying up those additional funds, while the MUs of the world will be unable to sustain such ever increasing athlete largesse, and will, subsequently, fall farther and farther behind!!

 

[TheGreenhouseEffect]

Yup Bigo a pharmD does make at an average of 100k to start off with,,but it is a 3 year degree on TOP of the undergraduate degree. Most graduate with huge amounts of debt. I was wondering if cuz was going to catch that?

I guess the point I'm trying to make to our inbred cousin from Morgantown is there IS significant value in getting a college degree paid for and the system has worked well. Now, all of a sudden we realign, we form conferences based on nothing but money payouts by TV rather than logistical common sense and we need to start PAYING too. Hate to be the spoiler here cuz but doesn't that sound like what my Atlanta Falcons do? Pro ?

We fly all over the country forcing players across time zones routinely when before that was a rarity.

So my question is, why not just become a Pro 5 conference. Drop any education given. Let each P5 school pay what they want to pay and become another NFL, i.e. The PFL, and let's keep the G5 non pay, collegiate football where you get a college degree for playing. People would navigate to a G5 model too, while Alabama and Ahia State would too keep their same fans and pummel lower rung P5s in the name of money payouts.

The G5 kids would graduate with a degree and get a shot at the NFL and the P5 players would get their money and a shot at the NFL. Equity and fairness, and the ability to choose ones path.

 

[herdalicious]

The NBA used to let kids in right out of high school. What happened was that too many teams, in a bidding war for top talent, blew tens of millions of dollars on Kevin Garnetts that wound up being Sebastian Telfairs. It was killing the small market teams and damaging the league, so they added the one-year stipulation, so the players would have to be vetted in the NCAA for at least a season before anyone could spend a dime on them.

What folks want to live in denial of is the fact that P5 schools have long-since adopted this risk economy in bidding over highly-touted recruits. Because of NCAA regulation, that economy has been limited by the fact that its under the table, and can be equally damaging to both athlete and school if its revealed. What the P5s are trying to do is bring this process above board, and ultimately, bring public money into it. The proliferation is going to be wild, because there's nothing that builds up a bidding war like using the public's chips.

Unless you're a giant land-grant with a stack of blank state checks, get out of the game now while you still can. What's going to be equal parts funny and sad is seeing whether the increase in WVU's athletic budget over the next five years will meet or exceed the decrease in the state's overall educational budget. Haw haw haw priorities, amirite?

 

[A Cousin From Richmond]

Yup Bigo a pharmD does make at an average of 100k to start off with,,but it is a 3 year degree on TOP of the undergraduate degree. Most graduate with huge amounts of debt. I was wondering if cuz was going to catch that

My brother-in-law is a pharmacist so I knew you were wrong. However, what's the point of highlighting that single mistake when about everything else you've said in this thread alone has been insanely idiotic?

 

[The Real SamC]

There is no legally justifiable way to prevent an athlete from profiting from his/her NIL - and all prior attempts were illegal.

Of course there is. You just put language in the scholarship document to cover the issue. That is where EA and others messed up. "I understand that my NIL may be used by the university and my signing it over is a part of receiving a scholarship."

Unwilling to sign? Don't let the screendoor hit ya where the Good Lord split ya.

 

[andy4theherd]

 

[-Olen-]

Of course there is. You just put language in the scholarship document to cover the issue. That is where EA and others messed up. "I understand that my NIL may be used by the university and my signing it over is a part of receiving a scholarship."

Unwilling to sign? Don't let the screendoor hit ya where the Good Lord split ya.

Prior to O'Bannon, the National Letter of Intent signed by scholarship athletes had a consent waiver that forced each athlete to give up rights to their NIL (thereby allowing the NCAA and member institutions to commercially exploit such NILs without interference). In O'Bannon, the district court judge (and the 9th Circuit) declared this action a violation of the Sherman Anti-trust Act. Continuing to use this type of clause (or re-incorporating this clause in a new/different way) in an institution's National Letter of Intent agreement is plowing old, and legally-deficient ground.

Given the US Supreme Court's holding in NCAA v. Board of Regents (1984), which declared the NCAA in violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act for implementing a television plan controlling the total number of games per season and the number of times an institution could appear on tv in a season, and with the development of interactive media and simulated video games, the O'Bannon (and Keller) decision(s) is an inevitability.

 

[CarolinaHerdZilla22]

If MU had anything special to offer the student in student/athlete it would work with recruits/ families of a certain mindset. 95% of the current roster would not fit this model.

How can you make this statement? Marshall's football & basketball teams both had 3.00 or better GPAs last year. Our basketball team has two pre-med student/athletes on its roster. Marshall is in the best academic position EVER....for ALL her students. Our University is graduating student/athletes with great success. That is SPECIAL OFFERINGS in my eyes!

I do NOT support all the "extra money" that schools (including Marshall) are giving athletes now---when the average student is leaving campus in DEBT because of student loans. Athletes have a FREE venue (packed stadiums or arenas) to "showcase" their talents to Pro scouts. Take Auburn for example...they are giving their athletes/students about $900 extra per month. I bet there are a lot of BMWs on their campus now! No college kid needs to be "handed $900/month" in addition to FREE scholarships (No Student Debt) and FREE Room & Board. I call Bullshit Auburn......in my mind it (extra $900) is illegal recruiting on the Tigers part!

HerdZilla22 (Sweeney) in Charlotte

 

[BleedsGreen33]

1. Do you think the NFL is going to watch this money pay out and NOT start scheduling Saturday games prime time on all major TV outlets? Remember your now professional, your PAYING for performance.

Guess I'm confused on why the NFL would care if college athletes are paid or not. It doesn't cause any amount of harm to their league. It isn't going to pull viewership or effect their talent pool. After 3-4 seasons a college players still has to move on from college football one way or another.