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My challenge to anyone still behind Doc

Bankerreturns

Silver Buffalo
Jul 14, 2017
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It's my contention that you can either be a head coach or not. Much like Doc likes to talk about with QBs, it's the intangibles - how do you handle pressure, the media, fans and boosters. Are you able to adapt on the move, do you have a vision and can you communicate it and get everyone on board with it. There are just certain things you can learn and certain things you just have to already have.

So here's my challenge, give me some examples of head coaches that have shown improvement after 8 years on the job. Give me some examples of coaches who started slow, went on a good run, dropped back to disappointing results and then turned it back around. Granted, it will be difficult because most schools don't give anyone that much time, but you could even look for examples spanning different jobs at different schools.

You can find a lot of examples of guys who started slow then figured it out and went on to great careers. You can find a lot of guys that started strong and then faded. I can't think of any that started slow, figured it out, lost it and then figured it out again.
 
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I'll give this a shot. However, criteria for certain programs is different from others, even in the P5.

I think the bigger challenge is finding a coach who has been head coach at the same spot for 8 years, lol.

Bill Snyder, and his coaching record is very up and down.

Les Miles at LSU, had a very strong start, then sorta went up and down up and down, fired by their standards, not good enough.

I'd also say Philip Fulmer despite his 1st season, did well, and then would have weird seasons to follow, then went and won again.

Brian Kelly at Notre Dame has had some strange seasons sandwiched into 10 win ones. 8-5 in his first season was a step up from 6-6 previously. He's been there 7 years but right now, doing well.
 
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The ebb and flow of success in Doc's career is a direct result of the level of competition and the blessing of having a good QB.

He's never been good at being a head coach. His job was easier for a period of time and now he has to figure things out when the players aren't naturally developing on their own and it's exposing some major flaws.
 
Dabo at Clemson - flipped the program in 8 years from an also ran ACC program to the National Title. Obviously and unfortunately there is a major difference $$ in Clemson and Marshall but the point is Dabo Sweeney took Clemson all the way to the top and is poised to do the same thing this season..so its very possible.
 
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Dabo at Clemson - flipped the program in 8 years from an also ran ACC program to the National Title. Obviously and unfortunately there is a major difference $$ in Clemson and Marshall but the point is Dabo Sweeney took Clemson all the way to the top and is poised to do the same thing this season..so its very possible.

Exactly. I don't expect us to be a national power, not many will EVER say that. I would however like to be .600 in CUSA on a DOWN year, and easily win it on a good year. It's not saying much to merely compete in a shit conference.
 
All I would ask for is we go 8-4 or 9-3 every year. Have a year like 2014 every 3-4 years and win the league every 3 years or so. I don't think that is an unrealistic expectation considering our facilities and the revenue generated by the fans compared to our conference mates.
But it does seem like most are passing us by, at the least looking like most are certainly being more proactive with facilities, coaching moves, or both.
 
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heck that's easy, off the top of my head Frank Beamer, Joe Paterno, a guy named Bear Bryant, at Alabama, started off weak, had a good run, went 6-5, 6-5 in 1969,70, and then started another run. I sure I can find more. I just did Kirk Ferentz
 
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It's my contention that you can either be a head coach or not. Much like Doc likes to talk about with QBs, it's the intangibles - how do you handle pressure, the media, fans and boosters. Are you able to adapt on the move, do you have a vision and can you communicate it and get everyone on board with it. There are just certain things you can learn and certain things you just have to already have.

So here's my challenge, give me some examples of head coaches that have shown improvement after 8 years on the job. Give me some examples of coaches who started slow, went on a good run, dropped back to disappointing results and then turned it back around. Granted, it will be difficult because most schools don't give anyone that much time, but you could even look for examples spanning different jobs at different schools.

You can find a lot of examples of guys who started slow then figured it out and went on to great careers. You can find a lot of guys that started strong and then faded. I can't think of any that started slow, figured it out, lost it and then figured it out again.

Im going to be honest! I think Doc is a good sales guy when it comes to recruiting but not sure he understands how big a part character plays a role(good attitude kids that will work hard and develop not drug dealing problem kids). I also think he has a bias against WV kids. I live in the Eastern Panhandle, and Martinsburg High is loaded with talent. Doc needs to be camped out at Dave Walker's office, and the simple fact he is not looking at Tyson Bagent as a QB is shocking to me. This kid can flat out play. He has a 4.6 gpa and is a true top character kid. If he was from Florida Doc would bring him in. So, to answer your question, watching Doc and how he is recruiting and who he is bringing in tells me all I need to know. I don't think the school has the money to buy him out but he is not the answer(I have been defending him but cant any longer).

Bottom line, I just don't think he knows what he is doing to win on a consistent basis. He is winning by having more talent then everyone else, and he has to because he is getting out coached during games.
 
I honestly think we'd be rolling where people would hope we'd be if the team hadn't collapsed in 2016. We came off the conference title in 2015 looking like we were going to be right back in the mix for it again the following year, but then 2016 just 2016'd all over us.

The big question is WTF actually happened last year, and can it happen again? Looking at the roster right now, Marshall is poised to have another two-year run at the top of the league, but how much does that roster matter until we get to September of next year? What happens if we lose another 3-4 players we expected to start the next two seasons because they're out helping heroin dealers move product? Or getting booted from the team for sassing a coach on Twitter?

I think Doc survived 2016, but he didn't survive it intact, as far as the fans are concerned, and that's why people are so meh about the program. We might pop up and do something special next year, or we could collapse into abject embarrassment. That doesn't really sell season tickets.
 
I'll give this a shot. However, criteria for certain programs is different from others, even in the P5.

I think the bigger challenge is finding a coach who has been head coach at the same spot for 8 years, lol.

Bill Snyder, and his coaching record is very up and down.

Les Miles at LSU, had a very strong start, then sorta went up and down up and down, fired by their standards, not good enough.

I'd also say Philip Fulmer despite his 1st season, did well, and then would have weird seasons to follow, then went and won again.

Brian Kelly at Notre Dame has had some strange seasons sandwiched into 10 win ones. 8-5 in his first season was a step up from 6-6 previously. He's been there 7 years but right now, doing well.

These plus Frank Beamer and then some
 
These plus Frank Beamer and then some

I'm not sure that would describe Frank Beamer. VT was pretty average when he showed up in the late 87. It took a couple 6-win seasons and one rough year in 1992. After that he didn't have another losing season and actually won at least 7 games every year. The last time he only had 7 wins he decided to retire. He had 13 years with double digit wins. Once he figured it out, I think it's safe to say he didn't lose it for about 25 years. Once he lost it, he stepped away.

Les Miles had 7 seasons with double digit wins in the toughest conference in the country. His worst season at LSU he had an 8-5 record. At Oklahoma State he wasn't even there long enough to recruit all of his own players. He had a losing season his first year but after that he won at least 7 games. Again, hard to compare him to Doc in any way.

The closest is probably Bill Snyder.
 
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Im going to be honest! I think Doc is a good sales guy when it comes to recruiting but not sure he understands how big a part character plays a role(good attitude kids that will work hard and develop not drug dealing problem kids). I also think he has a bias against WV kids. I live in the Eastern Panhandle, and Martinsburg High is loaded with talent. Doc needs to be camped out at Dave Walker's office, and the simple fact he is not looking at Tyson Bagent as a QB is shocking to me. This kid can flat out play. He has a 4.6 gpa and is a true top character kid. If he was from Florida Doc would bring him in. So, to answer your question, watching Doc and how he is recruiting and who he is bringing in tells me all I need to know. I don't think the school has the money to buy him out but he is not the answer(I have been defending him but cant any longer).

Bottom line, I just don't think he knows what he is doing to win on a consistent basis. He is winning by having more talent then everyone else, and he has to because he is getting out coached during games.

If you look at the 10 early commits Marshall has for 2018 none are from the state of Florida. 3 are from West Virginia and 4 are from Kentucky. That doesn't mean Florida kids are bad, but in the past it seems recruits from the sunshine state have found their fair share of trouble once they've arrived on campus. So maybe Doc is rethinking his evaluation process of talent over character?

https://marshall.rivals.com/commitments/football/2018
 
How many LEGIT offers does the kid have?
The offers are about to come in a big way but that is not the point(coach wants to wait until the season is over). There are about 5 kids on Martinsburgs team and for that matter Capitals team as 4 or 5 kids that can flat out play. I saw Capital on Saturday and someone said the middle linebacker may go to Ohio University to play football.

After watching doc recruit now for 8 years I just don't like it and with all the turnover in recruiting classes it just proves he really does not understand what he is doing and how to build a roster for long-term success. You do that by building the core of your team around good character and work ethic kids then you can bring some of the troubled background kids after your core team has been put in place. When your entire team are kids with troubled pasts then that's what your team is on the field. Bagent is 4.6 student that is going to be 28-0 the last two years if they beat Spring Valley on Saturday. He is a great kid with a great work ethic and has never even thought about being in trouble. A type of kid you biuld a program around. If he does not work out at QB move him to linebacker.
 
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X 2 Alleers6! Also Capital HS 50 minutes away.
yep see my post below

Tyson Bagant went off Saturday. I could be wrong but Capital is the second best team in the state(Spring Valley may have something to say about that), and with all do respect Bagant lit Capital up for 18-21, 372 yards, and 4 TD's. So for those that say he is not at least a non P5 D1 QB your crazy. The kid has proved on the field (and off of it for that matter).
 
If you look at the 10 early commits Marshall has for 2018 none are from the state of Florida. 3 are from West Virginia and 4 are from Kentucky. That doesn't mean Florida kids are bad, but in the past it seems recruits from the sunshine state have found their fair share of trouble once they've arrived on campus. So maybe Doc is rethinking his evaluation process of talent over character?

https://marshall.rivals.com/commitments/football/2018
He has changed and yes its noticed but why did it take him to like year 8? He is an experienced coach that should know how to build a roster.
 
Tyson Bagant went off Saturday. I could be wrong but Capital is the second best team in the state(Spring Valley may have something to say about that), and with all do respect Bagant lit Capital up for 18-21, 372 yards, and 4 TD's. So for those that say he is not at least a non P5 D1 QB your crazy. The kid has proved on the field (and off of it for that matter).

It's not crazy to say a kid who has zero D1 offers isn't a D1 QB.

In fact, it's completely sane and rational.
 
He has changed and yes its noticed but why did it take him to like year 8? He is an experienced coach that should know how to build a roster.

I honestly don't have a bona fide answer other than maybe like most of us, the older you get the less BS you tend to put up with, and you begin to weigh the rewards vs risks. Also, most every college program has begun over recruiting Florida and Georgia, so maybe he's looking at other lesser know areas for talent. I think it's great, and allows family to come see their kids play more then once or twice a year.
 
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It's not crazy to say a kid who has zero D1 offers isn't a D1 QB.

In fact, it's completely sane and rational.
The offers are coming, but even a person like me seeing Bagent playing against one of the best and most athletic teams in the state and could tell he was the kind of kid you want in your program.
 
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Im going to be honest! I think Doc is a good sales guy when it comes to recruiting but not sure he understands how big a part character plays a role(good attitude kids that will work hard and develop not drug dealing problem kids). I also think he has a bias against WV kids. I live in the Eastern Panhandle, and Martinsburg High is loaded with talent. Doc needs to be camped out at Dave Walker's office, and the simple fact he is not looking at Tyson Bagent as a QB is shocking to me. This kid can flat out play. He has a 4.6 gpa and is a true top character kid. If he was from Florida Doc would bring him in. So, to answer your question, watching Doc and how he is recruiting and who he is bringing in tells me all I need to know. I don't think the school has the money to buy him out but he is not the answer(I have been defending him but cant any longer).

Bottom line, I just don't think he knows what he is doing to win on a consistent basis. He is winning by having more talent then everyone else, and he has to because he is getting out coached during games.
You are so dead on about Doc being biased against the 304 kids. We don't scout them and don't show any interest in them until they start getting interest & offers from other teams. I don't think we ever recruit kids from Martinsburg (though it is W.Va.'s nearest thing to being a football factory) or the rest of the Northern part of the state. We got Beckley's Van Horn (all-conference) and our present LB Chase Hancock (a probable all-conference) as walk-ons.

I totally agree that Doc needs to scoop up some of your kids on an annual basis...if Dave Walker does it with smoke & mirrors, then Doc needs to learn how.
 
You do that by building the core of your team around good character and work ethic kids

You kids like Ryan Yurachek, Ryan Bee, Blake Keller, Chocolate Wilson, Chase Hancock, etc...?

After watching doc recruit now for 8 years I just don't like it and with all the turnover in recruiting classes it just proves he really does not understand what he is doing and how to build a roster for long-term success.

The guy is one of the most respected recruiters in the country.
 
You are so dead on about Doc being biased against the 304 kids. We don't scout them and don't show any interest in them until they start getting interest & offers from other teams. I don't think we ever recruit kids from Martinsburg (though it is W.Va.'s nearest thing to being a football factory) or the rest of the Northern part of the state. We got Beckley's Van Horn (all-conference) and our present LB Chase Hancock (a probable all-conference) as walk-ons.

I totally agree that Doc needs to scoop up some of your kids on an annual basis...if Dave Walker does it with smoke & mirrors, then Doc needs to learn how.
Martinsburg has two dlineman right now I love. One is 6-1, 265 lbs and plays DE end. Kids name is Jalen Hessen. The other is Trey Henry, 601, 320 lbs, and plays the nose. He ran a fumble back last year in the state title game 50 years for a TD so you know he can run. Guess what? both have good grades and are good kids.
 
It's not crazy to say a kid who has zero D1 offers isn't a D1 QB.

In fact, it's completely sane and rational.

Exactly! I’m not saying the kid isn’t a quality QB. I’m just saying there should be red flags involved with QB’s that possess a 4.6 gpa, HUGE stats, play for winning program and don’t have any offers after the regular of his senior season ends.
 
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You are so dead on about Doc being biased against the 304 kids. We don't scout them and don't show any interest in them until they start getting interest & offers from other teams. I don't think we ever recruit kids from Martinsburg (though it is W.Va.'s nearest thing to being a football factory) or the rest of the Northern part of the state. We got Beckley's Van Horn (all-conference) and our present LB Chase Hancock (a probable all-conference) as walk-ons.

I totally agree that Doc needs to scoop up some of your kids on an annual basis...if Dave Walker does it with smoke & mirrors, then Doc needs to learn how.

We're Jacob Cassidy's only FBS offer. Same with Owen Porter and Isaiah Duncan.

We have a 2019 QB from WV already committed.

We offered Tavis Lee (from Martinsburg) LONG before WVU did.

We offered Cross Wilkinson from Wheelling Park.

Nazeh Johnson and Eli Gates are both former W/Os from Martinsburg now on scholarship.

But other than that you're correct.
 
You kids like Ryan Yurachek, Ryan Bee, Blake Keller, Chocolate Wilson, Chase Hancock, etc...?



The guy is one of the most respected recruiters in the country.
I don't care, look at the roster and all the turnover and problem kids. He is a great recruiter but you cant have roster full of problems(I heard recently when he left WVU in the 90's there were problems with his florida kids). Shoot, Litton even has a background. Its even harder to build a team around a QB that has character issues
 
We're Jacob Cassidy's only FBS offer. Same with Owen Porter and Isaiah Duncan.

We offered Tavis Lee (from Martinsburg) LONG before WVU did.

We offered Cross Wilkinson from Wheelling Park.

Nazeh Johnson and Eli Gates are both former W/Os from Martinsburg now on scholarship.

But other than that you're correct.
So your proving my point. You don't need other offers to recruit a kid. Keep in mind this is the first year Doc has gone local.

also, totally different with walkons.

Doc needs to be camping at Capital Highs front door step. They have players. What about the Collier kid from Beckley? Doc in touch with him yet? What about Wes Ours son at Keyser? Doc call him yet?
 
So your proving my point. You don't need other offers to recruit a kid. Keep in mind this is the first year Doc has gone local.

That was your point? Come on, man. Stop moving the needle and making these strawman arguments. I'm getting tired of re-hashing the same stuff over and over with you.

And FYI: You're incorrect about this being the first time Doc has gone local. We offered six kids from WV in 2017.
 
You are so dead on about Doc being biased against the 304 kids. We don't scout them and don't show any interest in them until they start getting interest & offers from other teams. I don't think we ever recruit kids from Martinsburg (though it is W.Va.'s nearest thing to being a football factory) or the rest of the Northern part of the state. We got Beckley's Van Horn (all-conference) and our present LB Chase Hancock (a probable all-conference) as walk-ons.

I totally agree that Doc needs to scoop up some of your kids on an annual basis...if Dave Walker does it with smoke & mirrors, then Doc needs to learn how.
Go back to when Doc was at WVU the last time. Doc took a kid from florida named Ivan McCartney over a kid named Aaron Dobson from Charleston. Ivan is back in Florida coaching and Aaron in the show. True story! There was a strong Safety at Jefferson High School that had interest in WVU when Doc was there the last time. They would not even return phone calls. The kid goes to Fairmont and he is in the NFL. True story!
 
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Go back to when Doc was at WVU the last time. Doc took a kid from florida named Ivan McCartney over a kid named Aaron Dobson from Charleston. Ivan is back in Florida coaching and Aaron in the show. True story! There was a strong Safety at Jefferson High School that had interest in WVU when Doc was there the last time. They would not even return phone calls. The kid goes to Fairmont and he is in the NFL. True story!

McCartney was a consensus top 50 recruit in the entire COUNTRY - in 2010.

Dobson was a 2009 recruit.
 
That was your point? Come on, man. Stop moving the needle and making these strawman arguments. I'm getting tired of re-hashing the same stuff over and over with you.

And FYI: You're incorrect about this being the first time Doc has gone local. We offered six kids from WV in 2017.
Go look at the commitment lists, we are taking more local kids this yr then about all the last 5 together. Its not all about local but knowing how to build a roster to win long-term with good character. Doc cant keep turning over his roster with problem kids
 
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