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now i understand why con pols love to quote jefferson

dherd

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Feb 23, 2007
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http://app.nytimes.com/


No one denied that Jefferson was a brilliant writer, a wide reader and a cultured talker. But his contemporaries also found him “a man of sublimated and paradoxical imagination” and “one of the most artful, intriguing, industrious and double-faced politicians in all America.”

GETTYSBURG, Pa. — “Lincoln hated Thomas Jefferson.” That is not exactly what we expect to hear about the president who spoke of “malice toward none,” referring to the president who wrote that “all men are created equal.”

Presidents have never been immune from criticism by other presidents. But Jefferson and Lincoln? These two stare down at us from Mount Rushmore as heroic, stainless and serene, and any suggestion of disharmony seems somehow a criticism of America itself. Still, Lincoln seems not to have gotten that message.

“Mr. Lincoln hated Thomas Jefferson as a man,” wrote William Henry Herndon, Lincoln’s law partner of 14 years — and “as a politician.” Especially after Lincoln read Theodore F. Dwight’s sensational, slash-all biography of Jefferson in 1839, Herndon believed “Mr. Lincoln never liked Jefferson’s moral character after that reading.”

True enough, Thomas Jefferson had not been easy to love, even in his own time. No one denied that Jefferson was a brilliant writer, a wide reader and a cultured talker. But his contemporaries also found him “a man of sublimated and paradoxical imagination” and “one of the most artful, intriguing, industrious and double-faced politicians in all America.”

Lincoln, who was born less than a month before Jefferson left the presidency in 1809, had his own reasons for loathing Jefferson “as a man.” Lincoln was well aware of Jefferson’s “repulsive” liaison with his slave, Sally Hemings, while “continually puling about liberty, equality and the degrading curse of slavery.” But he was just as disenchanted with Jefferson’s economic policies.

Jefferson believed that the only real wealth was land and that the only true occupation of virtuous and independent citizens in a republic was farming. “Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God, if ever he had a chosen people,” Jefferson wrote. He despised “the selfish spirit of commerce” for feeling “no passion or principle but that of gain.” And he regarded banks with special suspicion as the source of all commercial evil. “Banks may be considered as the primary source” of “paper speculation,” and only foster “the spirit of gambling in paper, in lands, in canal schemes, town lot schemes, manufacturing schemes and whatever could hit the madness of the day.”

Lincoln, who actually grew up on a backwoods farm, saw little there but drunkenness, rowdyism and endless, mind-numbing labor under the rule of his loutish and illiterate father. He made his escape from the farm as soon as he turned 21, opened a store (which failed) and finally went into law, that great enforcer of commercial contract. “I was once a slave,” he remarked, “but now I am so free that they let me practice law.”

As an Illinois state legislator, Lincoln promoted a state banking system and public funding for canals and bridges. As a lawyer, according to colleagues, Lincoln was never “unwilling to appear in behalf of a great soulless corporation” — especially railroads — and had no compunction about recommending the eviction of squatters who farmed railroad-owned land.

As president, he put into place a national banking system, protective tariffs for American manufacturing and government guarantees for building a transcontinental railroad. Lincoln was Jefferson’s nightmare.

But Jefferson also held out a second example to Lincoln, as the man who, for all his limitations and fixations, still managed to articulate certain universal truths about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Lincoln understood that Jefferson’s words — if not his practice — formed “the definitions and axioms of free society.” When he was urged during the Civil War to ignore the Constitution’s restraints on presidential power, he echoed Jefferson’s warning against taking “possession of a boundless field of power” by asking: “Would I not thus give up all footing upon constitution or law? Would I not thus be in the boundless field of absolutism?”

And so, Lincoln concluded, “All honor to Jefferson,” who “had the coolness, forecast, and capacity” to fix in the Declaration of Independence the “abstract truth” that all men are created equal, so that it would “be a rebuke and a stumbling block” to anyone who planned to reintroduce “tyranny and oppression.”

This was Lincoln’s other Jefferson, the man who wrote better than he knew, the enemy of “classification” and “caste.”

History is neither a political fable in which all the brothers are valiant and all the sisters virtuous, nor is it a tabloid exposé, full of crimes and follies, signifying nothing but victimization. There is, I admit, a caustic delight in unveiling the frailties of our Jeffersons (and our Lincolns). But the delight turns malevolent when it serves only to strip the American past of anything remarkable or exceptional, or when it demeans or discourages civic engagement and confidence.

Patriotism without criticism has no head; criticism without patriotism has no heart. Lincoln was capable of understanding both the greatness and the limits of Thomas Jefferson and the founders and still come out at the end embracing the American experiment for “giving liberty, not alone to the people of this country, but hope to the world for all future time.” And so should we.

Allen C. Guelzo is a professor of the Civil War era at Gettysburg College and the author, most recently, of “Gettysburg: The Last Invasion.”
 
Spoke like a true liberal(communist). We have seen this in recent times.

To control people and purge the populace, erase their history and start over.

How do we do that? Demonize their history and start over. This is going on America. Brainwash the children.

Rewrite history then you take over. No, I am not joking. It is textbook on how to do this.
 
Yeah, cause everyone has less access to information than at any time in the history of the world.
 
Spoke like a true liberal(communist). We have seen this in recent times.

To control people and purge the populace, erase their history and start over.

How do we do that? Demonize their history and start over. This is going on America. Brainwash the children.

Rewrite history then you take over. No, I am not joking. It is textbook on how to do this.

What history is being erased??
 
So lets see about the history you want to hold onto. First off was you raised in a former Confederate state? Secondly you want to hold on to a History of Slavery, oppression, traitors, legalized lynchings, Jim Crow laws, Segregation, The KKK, Church bombings and suicides, attacks by Police and Civilians together against peaceful Marchers and protestors, racist propaganda, cross burnings, etc. Is that the History you want to uphold. I mean look up what the creator of the Confederate Flag said what the purpose of the flag was in 1863. Stop being ignorant
 
Yes Fever, we should hang on to every bit of that. It's a very important piece of what has shaped our nation into what it is. Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

I think herdman is speaking to the revisionist history that has been building for decades. The liberal rewrite that is meant to create doubt and shame for everything the US has accomplished or gone through.
 
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I guess Germany should uphold their Nazi history also Banker. Its not about being revisionist, its about tearing down the history that has developed into the race divide of today. People on here are saying Obama is dividing the Nation but Southern Whites that want to hold onto the Stars and Bars and claiming it is their heritage is actually dividing the nation. Why would you hold onto a dark and disgusting past with such pride. That clearly shows that white supremacy and racism is still alive and well
 
That clearly shows that white supremacy and racism is still alive and well

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Todays Black Panther group is ignorant and has strayed far away the messages of Huey P. Newton
 
The new black panthers are nothing more then a black Supremacist group who does nothing to uplift the black communities. Only wants to come around to intimidate and demand their views on white people. That is NOT what the Original panthers was about and honestly they make matter worst.
 
Yes, Germany should hold on to their Nazi past. What do you propose they do, deny it ever happened or discount it as mostly myth (which is actually occurring now)?

I'm not talking about building new statues of Robert E Lee, but trying to erase him from history is not correct either. US Grant, the hero of the Union Army, was a slave owner. Robert E Lee was not a strong proponent of the Confereracy, but served the cause out of a sense of duty. He abhorred the war.

That's the thing about history. It has to be taken in the context of the time it was occurring. You can't rewrite it every 50 years based on modern day sensibilities and thought process. What a person did at a specific time, given the specific beliefs, traditions, and social norms of the time is how one should be judged in a historical context.

I'm not going to judge a person who lived in 1845 on the fact of whether or not they owned slaves. The ownership of slaves was an accepted norm in 1845, not only here, but across much of the planet. I would judge a person dealing in human trafficking much different in 2015. Both doing the same thing, but you have to put it in context of time.
 
Ok how about he fact that South Carolina didn't raise the flag until 1961 as a way to FU to the federal government and laws about desegregation. The confederate flag is nothing more then a traitors flag. A traitor that promoted racism and bigotry
 
Ok how about he fact that South Carolina didn't raise the flag until 1961 as a way to FU to the federal government and laws about desegregation. The confederate flag is nothing more then a traitors flag. A traitor that promoted racism and bigotry
What occurred 100 years prior to 1961?
 
Well, so do we deny the war happened? Or, what? What will be next? Take down the American flag because of what happened to the Indians? How about the Mexican Americans? After the war the southern part of the country merged pretty well back into the rest of the nation again and it has been overall peaceful. Was it always great? No. But, it hasn't been the Gaza strip either. The monuments, tombstones, and yes even the rebel flag to a large degree help keep that peace. As ruthless as Lincoln was he did not seek revenge after it was over. Revenge would have only let to further animosity and eventual discourse.

Oh, there is always a silver lining. If slavery had not existed just think of where you might be right now? :)
 
There's been an overreaction on the flag thing. That usually happens when there's a big shift that's built for a while. It should go back to a happier medium where we A) Aren't flying an insurrection's flag over government buildings and B) Apple isn't pulling down Civil War apps that have the confederate flag in them.

Hopefully soon.
 
The backlash against the General Lee is pure insanity. You know how much more offensive shit has been put on television than a car with a rebel flag on top of it? Maybe the left's problem with it is that the Dukes weren't going around burning down black churches, dragging minorities behind the car or jumping the Lee through gay wedding ceremonies. At least that way they could point to the show as an example of stupid Southerners acting exactly like the cliches in their head.
 
I haven't seen Dukes of Hazard but it was my understanding that it WAS stupid southerners acting like cliches.

The General Lee thing is a good example of the harm that can be done by the attitude of "it's cool to be offended."
 
Actually, the Duke boys were portrayed as country smart who always stood up for the little guy and did the morally right thing. The stereotypical southern, old, fat white guy in a white suit (think old Ole Miss mascot) was the bad guy.
 
One of the heroes on the show was a black sherrif of a neighboring county. There were far more black actors and actresses on Dukes than on Friends or Seinfeld.
 
I haven't seen Dukes of Hazard but it was my understanding that it WAS stupid southerners acting like cliches.

The General Lee thing is a good example of the harm that can be done by the attitude of "it's cool to be offended."

So you really don't have an understanding of the show..............
 
One of the heroes on the show was a black sherrif of a neighboring county. There were far more black actors and actresses on Dukes than on Friends or Seinfeld.

This is when white people say "Im not racist, I have A black friend"
 
I'm disappointed that blacks are all about this whining and pity business. I always thought they were tough. Maybe physically, but not mentally if this is what they're reduced to. "Waaahhhh, you're not my friend. Republicans don't like me."

Friends? What is this friends shit anyway? Seems like something for kids, women and queers.
 
I'm disappointed that blacks are all about this whining and pity business. I always thought they were tough. Maybe physically, but not mentally if this is what they're reduced to. "Waaahhhh, you're not my friend. Republicans don't like me."

Friends? What is this friends shit anyway? Seems like something for kids, women and queers.

I agree. Too much whining and the man is down on me.

I give the Mexicans one thing. They come here and work their asses off and make it.

And that is the thing with the homos, they want everybody to like them and if not they want you to be forced to like them.

Whites are more mentally tough. Blacks more physically gifted.
 
And that is the thing with the homos, they want everybody to like them and if not they want you to be forced to like them.

They want all men to be feminized so they can sashay around and not feel intimidated by the way we look at them.

We like spitting, baseball, cussing and muddy shoes. We look like pissed off Maytag repair men. They can't stand it. They know what we think when we see them, and they don't like it.

Try as they might, it's way too damn late for me to ever change on this one. They're either gonna have to move to San Francisco or just deal with it.
 
I agree. Too much whining and the man is down on me.

I give the Mexicans one thing. They come here and work their asses off and make it.

And that is the thing with the homos, they want everybody to like them and if not they want you to be forced to like them.

Whites are more mentally tough. Blacks more physically gifted.

That is why white people suicide rates are so much higher then black people right?? Look I get what your saying about the whining but they is usually black people looking for a handout. I never got a handout a day in my life. I have worked for everything I own
 
Suicide. You've got to be smart and tough to go through with it. Smart enough to know it's all over for you and tough enough to paint the wall with your brains or shatter your innards jumping off the Golden Gate.

It's certainly not for pansies like me.
 
Nothing is more pansy then taking your own life
Yeah, screw those folks who are diagnosed with horribly painful diseases & don't want to be a burden on their families. 'bout time someone knocked them down a peg.
 
Maybe it is kind of pansy, but it seems dumb to wait around to die. Seems like a ripoff, too. I'm getting ripped off.

My life will be pretty good the rest of the way probably, but not better than when I was 18-22. Even though I was fat, broke and stupid, that was the prime. Physically and mentally. This is just like being old, weak and retired compared to that. And it's only gonna get worse.

But I feel obligated to stick around now. And I'm too big of a coward to risk failing an attempt.
 
Yeah, screw those folks who are diagnosed with horribly painful diseases & don't want to be a burden on their families. 'bout time someone knocked them down a peg.

Atleast they don't continue to be a drain on the healthcare system and turn into prescription pill junkies
 
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