Question for Keep

[ThunderCat98]

A colleague and I have an ongoing discussion re: Calvanism (in the context of absolute predestination) and Arminianism (as in complete "free will"). I found this site and thought it was a pretty good read on the issue. I was curious as to your thoughts on this article.

http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/special_topics/arminianism_vs_calvinism.html

 

[GK4Herd]

Not Keep, but absolute predestination is a troublesome concept for me.

 

[ThunderCat98]

Bump. I really am interested in hearing your thoughts on this, Keep.

 

[murox]

Not Keep, but absolute predestination is a troublesome concept for me.

I'm not sure how it's possible to believe in an omnipotent god without believing in absolute predestination.

 

[sistersville]

God knows everything but man has free will.

 

[banker6796]

The two do not have to be, or are they, mutually exclusive. Let's say you have a kid (or a dog so Rox feels included). You sit two bowls in front of them, one has ice cream and the other has brocolli. The child/dog is free to choose either bowl to eat. I do nothing to influence their decision, but knowing my child/dog I already know what their decision will be.

 

[CockyHerd]

God knows everything but man has free will.

God already knows what happens but what happens isn't predetermined.......Ok...Got it.

And if you pray really hard, he or she might change their mind.

 

[Walden Pond]

I already know what their decision will be.

Yeah, the one that sends them to hell. The fattening, rot your teeth out ice cream over the healthy broccoli. This is a good lesson in needing to be scared into making the right decisions in life.

What you want and what you have to do are two different things. The older you get and the more you figure that out, the less enjoyable life becomes. Thus, the need for the great reward to come after life is over.

Whoever came up with this one is the all time best salesman.

 

[extragreen]

God already knows what happens but what happens isn't predetermined.......Ok...Got it.

Correct.
_____________________

And if you pray really hard, he or she might change their mind.

God would already know if you were going to pray real hard. Doesn't mean he made you pray really hard, doesn't mean
he prevented you from praying really hard.

 

[CockyHerd]

God would already know if you were going to pray real hard. Doesn't mean he made you pray really hard, doesn't mean
he prevented you from praying really hard.

But did/would praying really hard make God change his mind about what already happened? Or does God know he already changed his mind?

So, is there really any power in prayer?

God already knows how things worked out in Garland, Texas and he knew how things were going to work out in Aurora.......So, we shouldn't blame or credit God for either, right?

 

[GK4Herd]

The two do not have to be, or are they, mutually exclusive. Let's say you have a kid (or a dog so Rox feels included). You sit two bowls in front of them, one has ice cream and the other has brocolli. The child/dog is free to choose either bowl to eat. I do nothing to influence their decision, but knowing my child/dog I already know what their decision will be.

I know their decision already as well....broccoli sucks. Which brings up another angle. Why would God put a bowl of ice cream in front of you and expect you to eat broccoli? Of course I'm speaking metaphorically here.

 

[extragreen]

But did/would praying really hard make God change his mind about what already happened? Or does God know he already changed his mind?

So, is there really any power in prayer?

God already knows how things worked out in Garland, Texas and he knew how things were going to work out in Aurora.......So, we shouldn't blame or credit God for either, right?

Nothing has "already happened". God would already know IF you were going to pray really hard, or not. God's knowing in advance changes nothing. Power in prayer? God said there was. " The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." His words.

God is not the author of confusion, or malice, or such things. When good things happen, I give God credit, whether or not I know he had a hand in it. And when bad things happen, I don't blame him, because I believe Him when he says he is good, righteous, truth, life, light, etc. And because I believe him, then it is considered faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God. And yes, there's more to it than simply having faith, faith without works is dead.

 

[extragreen]

I know their decision already as well....broccoli sucks. Which brings up another angle. Why would God put a bowl of ice cream in front of you and expect you to eat broccoli? Of course I'm speaking metaphorically here.

What do you consider ice cream, and what do you consider broccoli? Literally.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

If there is a God, ice cream would be as healthy as broccoli.

 

[murox]

The two do not have to be, or are they, mutually exclusive. Let's say you have a kid (or a dog so Rox feels included). You sit two bowls in front of them, one has ice cream and the other has brocolli. The child/dog is free to choose either bowl to eat. I do nothing to influence their decision, but knowing my child/dog I already know what their decision will be.

Kind of a shitty comparison, seeing as you can't see the future like an omnipotent god could.

Here's a better comparison. If you had god's abilities concerning your own child, would you give her free will to play in traffic if she chose to as a toddler?

 

[murox]

I know their decision already as well....broccoli sucks. Which brings up another angle. Why would God put a bowl of ice cream in front of you and expect you to eat broccoli? Of course I'm speaking metaphorically here.

Paraphrasing Bill Burr: "You made me! This is your fvck up. You give me freedom of choice, make me suck at math, you make whores . . . and you don't expect me to fail?"

 

[banker6796]

Is it a bad analogy because it properly supports my point, one with which you don't agree?

Toddlers don't have free will, they are under the care and guidance of their parents. They don't chose to play in traffic because they are incapable of understanding the ramifications of their actions. I parent could chose to neglect their responsibilities and allow their child to wander in to traffic. That's the free will in that equation.

 

[extragreen]

Kind of a shitty comparison, seeing as you can't see the future like an omnipotent god could.

Here's a better comparison. If you had god's abilities concerning your own child, would you give her free will to play in traffic if she chose to as a toddler?

Children don't know better, adults should understand the consequences.

 

[HerdandHokies]

If there is a God, ice cream would be as healthy as broccoli.

For the vast majority of human history it would have been.

Ok, fine, for the vast majority of human history we were all lactose intolerant, but "healthy versus unhealthy" is only a thing because we run calorie surpluses as opposed to the calorie deficits that were common. That's why we like ice cream so much, and highly caloric foods in general.

 

[ThunderCat98]

Bump. I would still like to hear your perspective on this, Keep. And, no, I am not trying to be an ass or start an argument. I really am looking for answers/understanding on this topic.

 

[i am herdman]

Maybe it was predestined that he was not going to respond.

 

[GK4Herd]

Maybe it was predestined that he was not going to respond.

Naw...it's free will. Very, very intelligent free will not to enter into this discussion.

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

I have no idea how I missed this thread. The new format makes it easy to miss things. Even on a computer it seems like you are reading it on a tablet.

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

Here is a quick Q/A on the subject that you may find helpful.

http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=229

But a Scripture verse to leave you with (I'll have more time later).

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. -- John 1:12-13

Q) Who received Him and were given the right to become children of God?

A) Those who were born of God, by His decree

Not those "born of blood" (i.e. - Physical descendants of Abraham).

Not those who "by the will of the flesh" (Romans 3:11, "There is none who seeks after God.")

Not those who "by the will of man" (i.e. - by baptism).

And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." -- John 6:65

 

[extragreen]

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1 Timothy 2:
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[i am herdman]

Here we go again.

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

Leave it to EG to post random verses out of context without any logical order and do nothing to actually answer my post.

Basically EG believes in universalism.

(Hint: All doesn't mean every person ever).

 

[extragreen]

Leave it up to Keep to not understand the scripture he posted.

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

I should have listened to GK.

 

[extragreen]

Yep.

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." -- Proverbs 26:4

 

[extragreen]

Understandest thou what thou readest?
Acts 8:30

 

[raleighherdfan]

Bump. I would still like to hear your perspective on this, Keep. And, no, I am not trying to be an ass or start an argument. I really am looking for answers/understanding on this topic.

What does your "doctrine" tell you about the subject?

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

The problem with Arminianism is that it puts the cart before the horse. A man can no more respond to the gospel without the preparatory work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration than could the bones put on their own flesh listening to Ezekiel's preaching.

 

[extragreen]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any (just the predestined) should perish, but that all (just the predestined) should come to repentance.

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all (just the predestined), to be testified in due time.

 

[ThunderCat98]

What does your "doctrine" tell you about the subject?

"I" don't have a "doctrine." That is why I asked the question. I am still studying and reading - trying to figure out the Biblical answer.