SB Nation Wants to Merge C-USA and the Sun Belt
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The SB Nation article and this writer for the Tidewater paper (who seems to write something about ODU or CUSA every couple of days, I cannot imagine that even 1% of people in the paper's service area care) have different ideas but the whole thing seems to be "just put CUSA and the SBC, along with some I-AAs, in a box and sort them out along better geographical lines".
It is not the worst idea in the world. Why should Louisiana Tech and UL-L play at fundamentally the same level but one be in a league with teams in west Texas and south Florida and the other in one with teams in Myrtle Beach and the mountains of North Carolina, and not each with each other? Same question for lots of schools.
The whole concept must be predicated upon the idea that CUSA and the SBC are on the same level. I don't buy into that 100%, but OK, let's roll with it.
First the easy ones to pick off from the ideas. Liberty has been wanting to be "the protestant Notre Dame" for 40 years. In academics, it darn near is. Very good school, although it cheapens itself with an online division 5 times the size of the real school. But in sports, it has never gotten close to being a school the evangelicals root for even thought they never went there, the way UND or BYU are for their religions. It plays before students, parents, and professors. JMU is a nice school, very Marshall-like, but it has never made a peep about going I-A. Until it does forget about it. Same for Sam Houston State or whoever you want to mention.
So, you come up with what is, in effect, two or three conferences, playing some cross-over games, sharing administrative resources and marketing TV together.
It is not a bad idea. IF you assume that CUSA and SBC are equal and IF you assume that every single ex- I-AA at the bottom of both conferences is not going to go running back home.
Two very big assumptions.
It is not the worst idea in the world. Why should Louisiana Tech and UL-L play at fundamentally the same level but one be in a league with teams in west Texas and south Florida and the other in one with teams in Myrtle Beach and the mountains of North Carolina, and not each with each other? Same question for lots of schools.
The whole concept must be predicated upon the idea that CUSA and the SBC are on the same level. I don't buy into that 100%, but OK, let's roll with it.
First the easy ones to pick off from the ideas. Liberty has been wanting to be "the protestant Notre Dame" for 40 years. In academics, it darn near is. Very good school, although it cheapens itself with an online division 5 times the size of the real school. But in sports, it has never gotten close to being a school the evangelicals root for even thought they never went there, the way UND or BYU are for their religions. It plays before students, parents, and professors. JMU is a nice school, very Marshall-like, but it has never made a peep about going I-A. Until it does forget about it. Same for Sam Houston State or whoever you want to mention.
So, you come up with what is, in effect, two or three conferences, playing some cross-over games, sharing administrative resources and marketing TV together.
It is not a bad idea. IF you assume that CUSA and SBC are equal and IF you assume that every single ex- I-AA at the bottom of both conferences is not going to go running back home.
Two very big assumptions.
It's a terrible Idea.
CUSA made the mistake going after Markets instead of Programs.
ODU, MTSU, WKU, and LT was great pickups. I have confidence that UTSA will start getting the football ball rolling. But imagine if CUSA went with this lineup.
EAST
Marshall, WKU, MTSU, ODU, Georgia Southern, Appy State, FAU, FIU
West
Southern Miss, UAB, LT, Rice, UTSA, Arkansas State, ULL, UTEP
I would be happy with that lineup. And if UTEP and UTSA, was ever to leave for the MW, you could easily replace them with Troy and South Alabama in the West.
They suggest this every year since the last realignment. It's nonsense and a slap in the face to the schools that has paid their dues over the years, including us. Piss on what they think. We didn't strive to move forward just to waste it and take a step backwards. I am sure USM and similar schools feel the exact same way. We aren't bad off geographically right now, I am not sure what their argument is.
beefcake you don't have to worry about the MAC. They won't take us back for a third time and really don't need us. However, geographically for fan travel much better than CUSA. JMO
Well at this point, to former SB teams are dominating the league in football (WKU) and B'ball (MT).
They are at this point in time but was that the case when they first got here. Football was dominated by us, ECU, LT and Rice. Basketball was UAB and UTEP. As to bb, maybe they would allow us back, maybe not, but I think they would consider it if we pushed hard enough. This is all conjecture and doesn't matter at this point though.
They didn't rule the conference then though, that was my point. MTSU went 7-5 or 6-6, lost their bowl. WKY went 7-5 in 2014, was on the upswing with Brohm finishing what Petrino started. We should know that it doesn't matter sometimes the conference you are in as to how good you are, but sometimes that is the case too or it used to be that way. Last realignment muddied the waters quite a bit and honestly who knows what conference is higher in the pecking order. All we know is its 1. AAC, 2. MWC. 3 MAC has an edge. 4. who cares at this point. Its not the fact that we pulled up Sunbelt teams, its who we pulled up. If we would have raided them of their more solid performers (which we did with MTSU and WKY, but left out Ark St., ULL, etc for the sake of adding Charlotte, FIU, FAU, etc), CUSA would have held the advantage going forward, but that's not what we did as a whole. Bringing in Division 1 newbies hurt more than anything, and division 1 wannabe's (FIU stands out here, bad facilities, no fans, that's two strikes) for the sake of the ignorant market plan, knocked us down to sunbelt level...............cause that's what that conference was for, breeding ground for newbies. Old Dominion will prove to be a good add IMO, UTSA has potential, but the initial kick in the nuts is there regardless from adding them. Had we done what was traditional in the conference ranks, there would not be an argument as to what conference is at what number in the pecking order.
IMHO,
Like I said, it is a huge assumption to think that the SBC and CUSA are composed of equal teams. You can fault find with about any school/program/market in either league, but I don't see a heck of a lot of potential in much of the SBC. Most of the league plays in the huge shadow of the SEC. The big football programs of the SEC. Most were losing money in I-AA (because that is what you do in I-AA, you lose money) and saw a way to get TV money and went for it. The TV world has changed and I do not think all of the SBCers will hang in I-A when the TV money completly dries up.
Same, really can be said for much of the bottom of CUSA.
The schools I like in the SBC really are Coastal (wealthy growing area, filling with retirees who have nothing else better to do) and Appy State. ULL and Georgia Southern have some potential. The rest are crap.
As to CUSA, I agree 100% about all this "markets" stuff. There is a difference between being in a market and mattering in a market. Most CUSAers just don't matter in their own home towns. WKU and MTSU can find a niche, and USM already has. UAB is worthless unless it gets a stadium. The two directional Floridas will never have any fans. LTU is OK, but Louisiana has like 15 schools in I-A or I-AA and LSU sucks up 99.9% of the available fandom. UNCC is nothing and never will be. UNT will never matter except to its alumni, but it has 37K students. ODU has yet to show that anybody much cares. UTSA is 80 miles of drive however fast you damn well please roads to the real UT. Never be much. UTEP is closer to LA than the Texas-Louisiana state line and should go to the MWC.
As to the MAC, nah. The MAC has half of its schools that want to continue to play pretend they are I-A, and half that are listening to their students and cutting costs. When the TV contract runs out, it will break up.
Like I said, it is a huge assumption to think that the SBC and CUSA are composed of equal teams. You can fault find with about any school/program/market in either league, but I don't see a heck of a lot of potential in much of the SBC. Most of the league plays in the huge shadow of the SEC. The big football programs of the SEC. Most were losing money in I-AA (because that is what you do in I-AA, you lose money) and saw a way to get TV money and went for it. The TV world has changed and I do not think all of the SBCers will hang in I-A when the TV money completly dries up.
Same, really can be said for much of the bottom of CUSA.
The schools I like in the SBC really are Coastal (wealthy growing area, filling with retirees who have nothing else better to do) and Appy State. ULL and Georgia Southern have some potential. The rest are crap.
As to CUSA, I agree 100% about all this "markets" stuff. There is a difference between being in a market and mattering in a market. Most CUSAers just don't matter in their own home towns. WKU and MTSU can find a niche, and USM already has. UAB is worthless unless it gets a stadium. The two directional Floridas will never have any fans. LTU is OK, but Louisiana has like 15 schools in I-A or I-AA and LSU sucks up 99.9% of the available fandom. UNCC is nothing and never will be. UNT will never matter except to its alumni, but it has 37K students. ODU has yet to show that anybody much cares. UTSA is 80 miles of drive however fast you damn well please roads to the real UT. Never be much. UTEP is closer to LA than the Texas-Louisiana state line and should go to the MWC.
As to the MAC, nah. The MAC has half of its schools that want to continue to play pretend they are I-A, and half that are listening to their students and cutting costs. When the TV contract runs out, it will break up.
I guess you haven't seen what Arkansas State and Troy have been doing lately.
The fact you think Marshall should lower themselves more by being in the same conference as Coastal Carolina is hilarious to me.
The fact you think Marshall should lower themselves more by being in the same conference as Coastal Carolina is hilarious to me.
I can see UTEP, New Mexico State, UTSA, and Rice in the MW real soon. If that happens, I can see CUSA plucking ULL, Arkansas State, Troy, Georgia Southern and South Alabama.
EAST
Marshall, WKU, MTSU, FIU, FAU, ODU, UNCC, Georgia Southern
WEST
UAB, Troy, Southern Miss, ULL, Arkansas State, LT, North Texas, South Alabama.
That's a conference I would be fine with. I wish I could swap UNCC for Appy State.
EAST
Marshall, WKU, MTSU, FIU, FAU, ODU, UNCC, Georgia Southern
WEST
UAB, Troy, Southern Miss, ULL, Arkansas State, LT, North Texas, South Alabama.
That's a conference I would be fine with. I wish I could swap UNCC for Appy State.
Didn't see where it said SB Nation wanted to see the merger. It suggested a merger, but thats all. Please correct me if I overlooked something.
Losing money and drawing middle school sized crowds?
Fans build programs. You can get a hot coach, maybe cut some corners with the NCAA, maybe take some chances on questionable kids, and win for a while. And then the coach will move on and there you are. The shadow cast by the Greatest Conference over schools like that is so huge that there just is no fandom left. And, in the post TV money era that is coming soon, you have to boosters to pay the bills.
Arkansas State is losing money? Now your just talking out of your ass.
Arkansas State annual budget dwarfs our budget and have put a real effort to improve All of their facilities and have raised all of their coaches salaries. Plus their Marketing and Alumni money drives makes our plan look very kindergarten.
Arkansas State would have been a great addition to CUSA
Arkansas State annual budget dwarfs our budget and have put a real effort to improve All of their facilities and have raised all of their coaches salaries. Plus their Marketing and Alumni money drives makes our plan look very kindergarten.
Arkansas State would have been a great addition to CUSA
USATODAY has a database on these things.
ASU budget is $13.3M of which 58% is subsidy. MU budget is $27.4M of which only 45% is subsidy.
ASU football coach makes $700K with the only actually might happen bonuses being $25K for a bowl and $50K for a conference championship. Top assistant makes $210K. Basketball coach makes $350K.
Probably should not accuse people of talking out of their ass, when you are talking out of your ass.
ASU budget is $13.3M of which 58% is subsidy. MU budget is $27.4M of which only 45% is subsidy.
ASU football coach makes $700K with the only actually might happen bonuses being $25K for a bowl and $50K for a conference championship. Top assistant makes $210K. Basketball coach makes $350K.
Probably should not accuse people of talking out of their ass, when you are talking out of your ass.
http://m.arkansasonline.com/newsl2017/feb/12/asu-riding-wave-of-record-fiscal-16-201/
This article was from Feburary.
This article was from Feburary.
Wow - what a thing to do to the Sun Belt conference old or new news , fake or real news....dragging it down with the likes of CUSA...lol.
The way I see it, with all the additions, subtractions over the last little bit, we are beginning to look more and more like 1AA league. The handful of left overs just isn't enough to raise the profile for the entire league. Now if we go and do what SB suggests, we might as well give up and move back down. I am still old fashioned in the way I see all this. When this alignment stuff was beginning the last go around, there were few options to really consider for good adds. I know some of you advocate G. Southern and Appy, but mind you they were 1AA during that time, we already gave the green light to ODU and UNCC, now imagine what the perception of the league had we gone ahead with 4 1A completely newbie programs in transition.........
Now it brings up what should have been done. While I do think ODU had merit then and tons of potential, they are limited to facilities outside of basketball, a sport we desperately needed them to do well in with Memphis gone, hasn't quite panned out that way though. If they get their stadium built, albeit undersized IMHO, I feel they will have become a legit 1A program. UNCC, see the above ODU comment. On the other hand, if football pays the bills and we wanted to pull up two 1AA teams, we should have bypassed UNCC and ODU with all the market hoopla and went after Appy and GSU, they had the facilities in place, competitive history that was needed, the same as we did when entering the MAC in 97. The best adds out of all the teams we brought in have been WKU, MT, LT, and I thought UTSA was starting something good, then they fizzled. UNT came into the league on fire, fizzled. Had the path continued without fizzling, we might not even be talking about all this right now. So the plan failed and it would make it even worse if something like SB suggested happened. Its up to our current programs to grow, seems FIU is willing to take a bunch of chances to do that even if I don't agree with their method. If Lambert at UNCC can't get them going this year, they need to go a different direction, a new program that is already stagnant. ODU had a 9-3 season, not too bad, get the stadium built and they are onto something. The rest needs no explanation, they are proven they can do ok. LT pretty much came in and took over the west division, cuddos to them. We really should have stuck with 12 teams, that is just my take. Would it have mattered all that much, probably not, a nose dive in perception was inevitable, as I was saying, the 5 hold overs just wasn't enough to keep the profile of the league. Now if Marshall, USM, Rice, UTEP, get back to consistently being what they were in the old CUSA, that can change. The general public needs to see names they recognize in championship games, not the WKU of the last two years. They are accomplished but still gaining recognition, even though we know how good they are, the average tv viewer has no clue. A Marshall vs. USM champ game would gain more viewers, two names they know. Again this is all just my opinion.
Now it brings up what should have been done. While I do think ODU had merit then and tons of potential, they are limited to facilities outside of basketball, a sport we desperately needed them to do well in with Memphis gone, hasn't quite panned out that way though. If they get their stadium built, albeit undersized IMHO, I feel they will have become a legit 1A program. UNCC, see the above ODU comment. On the other hand, if football pays the bills and we wanted to pull up two 1AA teams, we should have bypassed UNCC and ODU with all the market hoopla and went after Appy and GSU, they had the facilities in place, competitive history that was needed, the same as we did when entering the MAC in 97. The best adds out of all the teams we brought in have been WKU, MT, LT, and I thought UTSA was starting something good, then they fizzled. UNT came into the league on fire, fizzled. Had the path continued without fizzling, we might not even be talking about all this right now. So the plan failed and it would make it even worse if something like SB suggested happened. Its up to our current programs to grow, seems FIU is willing to take a bunch of chances to do that even if I don't agree with their method. If Lambert at UNCC can't get them going this year, they need to go a different direction, a new program that is already stagnant. ODU had a 9-3 season, not too bad, get the stadium built and they are onto something. The rest needs no explanation, they are proven they can do ok. LT pretty much came in and took over the west division, cuddos to them. We really should have stuck with 12 teams, that is just my take. Would it have mattered all that much, probably not, a nose dive in perception was inevitable, as I was saying, the 5 hold overs just wasn't enough to keep the profile of the league. Now if Marshall, USM, Rice, UTEP, get back to consistently being what they were in the old CUSA, that can change. The general public needs to see names they recognize in championship games, not the WKU of the last two years. They are accomplished but still gaining recognition, even though we know how good they are, the average tv viewer has no clue. A Marshall vs. USM champ game would gain more viewers, two names they know. Again this is all just my opinion.
Please note that ODU has a fan base in the area that is similar in size to ours and they are going to be building a new football stadium. They have a fan base that cares and they are everywhere in Hampton Roads when it comes to advertising and being involved in the community. You know, kind of like MU in Cabell County, except the population of Hampton Roads is similar to the entire population of West Virginia. They are also very competitive in most sports in CUSA and have a bigger budget than MU so I wouldn't knock them as they will be one of our core conference members looking to the future.
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You do realize that those coaching salaries pretty much match what we pay our coaches?
What ever happened to the CUSA/Mountain West agreement? I thought there was a deal a few years back for scheduling "trading" or some such thing. Did anything ever come of it?
I decided to look myself too. Here is an article from ESPN on the very topic. (from 2012) But, like I said, nothing seemed to come of it.
I decided to look myself too. Here is an article from ESPN on the very topic. (from 2012) But, like I said, nothing seemed to come of it.
That's absurd. They went 4-8 in their first or second full year in FBS. That's ahead of schedule. They also lost three games by a combined nine points (two games by one point).
They very easily could have been bowl eligible already last year.
Please no. I know this current alignment isn't all that exciting but no no no! Look the whole tv contract stuff is imploding as we speak. In a few years this C-USA will look better.Schools who have joined will push hard to raise the bar and IMO things will look better.
And how many total years of recruiting to the FBS has passed? hint, more than the number of years they have actually been FBS. It takes 3-4 years to build your team to compete at your level. This will be year 4 of FBS recruiting and a measuring stick of where they are. That's my point.
Losing automatic births in the NCAA tourney and losing past credits had a lot to do with that deal not going forward.
I'm tired of all this "potential" talk. It seems borne of two things. This school is so big. Or the town this school is in is so big.
You can have 50K students who don't care a drop about football. And you can be in the middle of a huge city, where 99.9% of people ignore your program.
It does not matter.
You can have 50K students who don't care a drop about football. And you can be in the middle of a huge city, where 99.9% of people ignore your program.
It does not matter.
Don't disagree at all Sam. I always said the biggest loss to conference was ECU for that very reason. Had they stayed, the core group of the conference would have been more attractive as far as program support. The only school I can see that can grow is ODU, but they gotta get moving on the stadium, but limiting it to 22K seating is subpar in my opinion. If they still max that out, it still tells us nothing of what they can support over their current farse of a stadium.
I believe that was a Senior laden team last year who played a ton of football and still only mustered 4 wins.
except that article is including one time costs in facility upgrades, not a sustainable long term budget. it'd be like us saying our budget was $50m in 2015 because of the vision campaign facilities we built.
ECU: Don't disagree at all. I get why ECU did what it did, and given the chance we would have as well (thanks KO) but ECU really does not fit in with the AAC teams. The thing I have against ECU is that its fans have the world's worst case of "little brother". They are not going to be happy until ECU is in the ACC, and that means they are never going to be happy.
As to ODU, I will take other's word for it on all this potential. My perception is that ODU is really over-shadowed by UVa and VPI, despite their distance from the Tidewater. Willing to be shown wrong, but they have not shown me anything yet.
Recruiting to the FBS? You think anyone is able to recruit quality FBS players by saying "well, you will be playing an FCS schedule your first few years, and you won't even be able to play in the FCS playoffs during some of that time, but by the time you are a senior, you will be able to play an FBS schedule?"
You can't recruit FBS players under that situation. If you were, schools who transition to FBS would be expected to be competitive within their first couple of years. No school which has recently transitioned is that foolish.
It was a team of mostly FCS players who won 4 games, lost 2 by just 1 point, and lost another by 7. Those seniors weren't recruited as FBS players. No legitimate FBS player with other offers at that level would accept playing an FCS schedule for 2-3 years (and not even being playoff eligible) just to play 1 or 2 years at the FBS level.
Winning four games (again, with two losses by just 1 point) is a huge accomplishment for a new program.
Well the RB and the DL they had was legit FBS players.
But I will say Charlotte will be lucky to match what they did last year. IMO they are nothing more than an FCS program masquerading as an FBS program. CUSA made a huge mistake bringing them into the conference. Appy State was and still in the better option. And if I had the choice, I would give Charlotte the boot and bring in Appy, ULL, and Arkansas State.
But I will say Charlotte will be lucky to match what they did last year. IMO they are nothing more than an FCS program masquerading as an FBS program. CUSA made a huge mistake bringing them into the conference. Appy State was and still in the better option. And if I had the choice, I would give Charlotte the boot and bring in Appy, ULL, and Arkansas State.
The only thing you're looking at is success on the field. That isn't the only requirement conferences use to expand.
You can't compare the two. Charlotte has been playing football for four years, only two of which were FBS. Appy State has been playing D1 for decades and FBS for three years.
Give Charlotte just a decade of playing at the same level and it will be far closer.
You can't compare the two. Charlotte has been playing football for four years, only two of which were FBS. Appy State has been playing D1 for decades and FBS for three years.
Give Charlotte just a decade of playing at the same level and it will be far closer.
I agree, I really think UNCC has great potential.I lived in Charlotte for 7 years and it is a wonderful city. App State( Boone) is in the equivalent of Oxford or Athens.That will appeal to some but Charlotte is a bigger draw. Believe me their are many people in the Queen City who would love to root for someone other than UNC
Don't disagree, ohio herd. I would almost bet that overall UNCC's sports programs, excluding football, are as good or better than Appy State's. The 49ers traditionally have had a competitive basketball program, certainly better than ASU's.
