So How Great Was Spieth's Masters Win?

[wisemaniac]

Even though Spieth just put on the green jacket a few hours ago, I wonder how history will view his performance over the last four days.

Spieth managed to do something that hasn't been done in almost 40 years - lead all four days - he's only the fifth player ever to accomplish the feat. And according to ESPN, only one other Masters champion (Craig Wood in '41) has never let anyone closer to him than three shots the entire way. And he also accomplished the following:
First player to reach 19 under par at the MastersSet the record for number of birdies for the week - 28His two day total of 14 under par broke a 39 year old recordHis three day total of 16 under was also an Augusta recordIs now tied for the best score ever at the MastersLowest opening round by a champion at 64Youngest player to lead after the opening round

 

[GreenDuke]

It was a virtuoso performance and by the numbers historic. Spieth is really likable and certainly seems like a genuine guy. But to be clear the course was to lush and green and most of the speed of the fairways, chipping areas and greens was not there. I've been there and watched the tournament on tv since Arnie was winning in black and white and I have never seen the ball stop rolling on the banks and sides of greens and the edges of fairways. The conditions took the drama out of Sunday as off line and miss hit shots still stayed on fairways and greens. All that said everybody played the same track and JS deserves all the praise he is getting.

 

[GK4Herd]

I started paying attention to Spieth last year. I thought then that he had the right stuff to be the next big name. Yesterday's performance was great, as GD states, regardless of the mild conditions of the course. Coast to coast victories don't come often in golf. He seems like a genuinely good guy as well.

I've never been a Phil fan because I just could never buy into his nice guy act. When Sergio came on the scene I tried to like him but he turned into such a snot that I rooted against him. There was such a core of hatred toward Tiger that I pulled for him even as his chinks were revealed. But Jordan Spieth seems like someone I could get behind that's a nice guy with the ability to finish on the course. Hopefully he can maintain this level of play.

 

[CockyHerd]

Very excited to have a young American with that kind of talent and competitive fire.

He's not the best at any one thing but he's really good at everything. No real weaknesses. He's particularly strong mentally and he has a great caddy. He should contend in majors for a long time to come.

Very excited about the American youth movement in golf.

 

[i am herdman]

It was a great performance.

That being said, the runners up were at -14 as well. The course played about as easy as Augusta National can play. Why? The greens were slow, even by some regular tournament standards. Guys could fire at pins and not fear the normal at Augusta. It played more like the John Deere Classic than the Masters. The course was rather disappointing and majors should not have guys shooting 14 under and getting second place. Reminded me of Rory's win at Congressional in the US Open when it played easier than the AT&T event on the same course in the same year.

That doesn't take away from his wire to wire win and performance. He is the next young gun. A tremendous solid player that doesn't make a lot of mistakes and is very mature for his age.


This post was edited on 4/13 11:16 AM by i am herdman

 

[banker6796]

He obviously had a great tournament, but it's not in the same ballpark of what Tiger did in 1997. As pointed out, that was not the typical Masters, course was much more forgiving. Tiger clearing the field by 12 strokes in 1997 clearly shows that he, and only he, had the skill to destroy the course.

The only thing more impressive than that was what he did in the Open in 2000.

 

[i am herdman]

I follow some golf message boards and the Masters is taking a beating over the tournament. Most folks are not taking away from what Spieth did, but the course was just too easy. I believe only 26 guys out of 55 who made the cut finished EVEN or ABOVE par. That is more like the Pheonix Open. They made the Greenbrier tougher than Augusta National was this year. The staggering things is they have the most advanced sub-air system in the world and they didn't dry the greens out, even on the weekend.

Spieth went low but so did a bunch of other guys.

The problem is nobody is going to tell those old stubborn rich white bastards what to do.

What's next? Jordan proofing the course. Wait, Mr Green Jackets, he is not known as a long ball hitter. Pull your head out of a**es.

This post was edited on 4/13 1:43 PM by i am herdman

 

[GreenDuke]

Originally posted by i am herdman:
I follow some golf message boards and the Masters is taking a beating over the tournament. Most folks are not taking away from what Spieth did, but the course was just too easy. I believe only 26 guys out of 55 who made the cut finished EVEN or ABOVE par. That is more like the Pheonix Open. They made the Greenbrier tougher than Augusta National was this year. The staggering things is they have the most advanced sub-air system in the world and they didn't dry the greens out, even on the weekend.

Spieth went low but so did a bunch of other guys.

The problem is nobody is going to tell those old stubborn rich white bastards what to do.

What's next? Jordan proofing the course. Wait, Mr Green Jackets, he is not known as a long ball hitter. Pull your head out of a**es.


This post was edited on 4/13 1:43 PM by i am herdman

I thought you liked old stubborn rich white bastards, you kind of seem like one yourself.

 

[CockyHerd]

That's one of the reasons I love the Masters. They don't get too caught up in the winning score. It's the best players in the world playing the same golf course.

The USGA goes over board with "identifying the best player"......Michael Campbell, Lucas Glover, Geoff Ogilvy.....Really?

The weather dictated the course conditions Thursday & Friday......Then they decided to give the players an opportunity to close the gap Saturday and Sunday.

I much prefer The Masters because weather and conditions rarely decides the winner, the players do!

 

[GreenDuke]

Originally posted by CockyHerd:
That's one of the reasons I love the Masters. They don't get too caught up in the winning score. It's the best players in the world playing the same golf course.

The USGA goes over board with "identifying the best player"......Michael Campbell, Lucas Glover, Geoff Ogilvy.....Really?

The weather dictated the course conditions Thursday & Friday......Then they decided to give the players an opportunity to close the gap Saturday and Sunday.

I much prefer The Masters because weather and conditions rarely decides the winner, the players do!

^^^ Spot on, they could have sucked the moisture out of the greens but that's not what the conditions were. They let the course and the conditions play out, the right course of action.

 

[i am herdman]

That and they wanted someone to have a chance to go low to catch spieth.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[MARSHALL77]

Just wish the kid would have made the par saving putt at 18.

What a Masters for sure and was a lot of fun to watch this young man do what had not been accomplished since Ray Floyd went wire to wire in 1976.

Keep an eye on Mr. Spieth..this will not be his last win regarding the majors especially at Augusta.

 

[GK4Herd]

Originally posted by GreenDuke:


Originally posted by CockyHerd:
That's one of the reasons I love the Masters. They don't get too caught up in the winning score. It's the best players in the world playing the same golf course.

USGA goes over board with "identifying the best player"......Michael Campbell, Lucas Glover, Geoff Ogilvy.....Really?

The weather dictated the course conditions Thursday & Friday......Then they decided to give the players an opportunity to close the gap Saturday and Sunday.

I much prefer The Masters because weather and conditions rarely decides the winner, the players do!
__________________________________________________________________________________________

^^^ Spot on, they could have sucked the moisture out of the greens but that's not what the conditions were. They let the course and the conditions play out, the right course of action.



_________________________________________________________________________________

I disagree. They haven't always been happy with the course playing out. And Cocky....they have gotten caught up in the golf course. Tiger played the same course as everyone else in 1997. That day only 16 players were under par with Tom Kite 12 strokes behind at -6. Compare that to yesterday's Masters that saw 32 people under par and 20 golfers below (better) the score that Kite got a second place finish with.

The powers that be at the Masters immediately lengthened the entire course (Tiger-proofed it). That just doesn't sound like a group that's not a little embarrassed when someone wrecks the course.

This post was edited on 4/13 8:23 PM by GK4Herd

 

[GK4Herd]

Originally posted by MARSHALL77:
Just wish the kid would have made the par saving putt at 18.

His winning wasn't enough? You needed Tiger's record to be bested to completely validate the amazing week Spieth had? I apologize in advance if there's another reason his dominant win was in need of that final putt.

 

[i am herdman]

Originally posted by GK4Herd:
Originally posted by GreenDuke:


Originally posted by CockyHerd:
That's one of the reasons I love the Masters. They don't get too caught up in the winning score. It's the best players in the world playing the same golf course.

USGA goes over board with "identifying the best player"......Michael Campbell, Lucas Glover, Geoff Ogilvy.....Really?

The weather dictated the course conditions Thursday & Friday......Then they decided to give the players an opportunity to close the gap Saturday and Sunday.

I much prefer The Masters because weather and conditions rarely decides the winner, the players do!
__________________________________________________________________________________________

^^^ Spot on, they could have sucked the moisture out of the greens but that's not what the conditions were. They let the course and the conditions play out, the right course of action.



_________________________________________________________________________________

I disagree. They haven't always been happy with the course playing out. And Cocky....they have gotten caught up in the golf course. Tiger played the same course as everyone else in 1997. That day only 16 players were under par with Tom Kite 12 strokes behind at -6. Compare that to yesterday's Masters that saw 32 people under par and 20 golfers below (better) the score that Kite got a second place finish with.

The powers that be at the Masters immediately lengthened the entire course (Tiger-proofed it). That just doesn't sound like a group that's not a little embarrassed when someone wrecks the course.

This post was edited on 4/13 8:23 PM by GK4Herd

The entire field wrecked the course. It was average by PGA standards(in terms of difficulty) and nobody wants to say it. The thing that typically separates Augusta National are the greens and their speed, matched with contours. The greens were not fast and the course was not protected.

And, don't give me the stuff about playing the course as it is. Augusta changed as many as 8 tee boxes since 1997. Lengthened the course to nearly 7500 yards and introduced a one of a kind sub air system to control green speeds. Oh, they introduced rough or as they like to call it the second cut.

Augusta, to protect the course, either has to make the greens lightning fast or they will have to introduce deeper rough and narrow fairways. As a guy said today, if Tiger would have had this particular course in 1997 he would have shot 27 to 30 under par in 97.

I think what happened is they let the course play as it was on Friday and Saturday. Then, as time went on they wanted to leave the greens receptive so guys could try to catch Spieth on Sunday. What happened is they turned the Masters into the John Deere Classic.

 

[GreenDuke]

Originally posted by i am herdman:

Originally posted by GK4Herd:
Originally posted by GreenDuke:


Originally posted by CockyHerd:
That's one of the reasons I love the Masters. They don't get too caught up in the winning score. It's the best players in the world playing the same golf course.

USGA goes over board with "identifying the best player"......Michael Campbell, Lucas Glover, Geoff Ogilvy.....Really?

The weather dictated the course conditions Thursday & Friday......Then they decided to give the players an opportunity to close the gap Saturday and Sunday.

I much prefer The Masters because weather and conditions rarely decides the winner, the players do!
__________________________________________________________________________________________

^^^ Spot on, they could have sucked the moisture out of the greens but that's not what the conditions were. They let the course and the conditions play out, the right course of action.



_________________________________________________________________________________

I disagree. They haven't always been happy with the course playing out. And Cocky....they have gotten caught up in the golf course. Tiger played the same course as everyone else in 1997. That day only 16 players were under par with Tom Kite 12 strokes behind at -6. Compare that to yesterday's Masters that saw 32 people under par and 20 golfers below (better) the score that Kite got a second place finish with.

The powers that be at the Masters immediately lengthened the entire course (Tiger-proofed it). That just doesn't sound like a group that's not a little embarrassed when someone wrecks the course.


This post was edited on 4/13 8:23 PM by GK4Herd

The entire field wrecked the course. It was average by PGA standards(in terms of difficulty) and nobody wants to say it. The thing that typically separates Augusta National are the greens and their speed, matched with contours. The greens were not fast and the course was not protected.

And, don't give me the stuff about playing the course as it is. Augusta changed as many as 8 tee boxes since 1997. Lengthened the course to nearly 7500 yards and introduced a one of a kind sub air system to control green speeds. Oh, they introduced rough or as they like to call it the second cut.

Augusta, to protect the course, either has to make the greens lightning fast or they will have to introduce deeper rough and narrow fairways. As a guy said today, if Tiger would have had this particular course in 1997 he would have shot 27 to 30 under par in 97.

I think what happened is they let the course play as it was on Friday and Saturday. Then, as time went on they wanted to leave the greens receptive so guys could try to catch Spieth on Sunday. What happened is they turned the Masters into the John Deere Classic.

You're confusing playing conditions with design changes made to the course between tournaments. They didn't attempt to alter the course condition by artificially removing moisture, moisture that wasn't impeding play. Obviously they were ok with the low scoring, the Masters has never been about protecting par, they want a good tv show and they usually get it. I think we pretty much agree, its just semantics.

 

[GK4Herd]

I understand your point in differentiating between course design and course conditions. I just disagree with the premise that the conditions aren't manipulated because they don't care about the score (Cocky's assertion) AND the course redesign since '97 wasn't in response to keeping scores down. The SubAir system that is in place at the Masters is the ultimate manipulation of course conditions in order to maintain a degree of difficulty that is expected from a major venue. And I can't believe that anyone could honestly believe that the lengthening of the course wasn't in response to how Tiger and others were beginning to make a mockery of the course by overpowering it. Both the SubAir system and the course lengthening were both designed to maintain a level of integrity of the course. Both of those events seem to contradict, in my opinion, Cocky's assertion and your validation of his opinion. Herdman is spot on here.

 

[i am herdman]

Originally posted by GreenDuke:

Originally posted by i am herdman:

Originally posted by GK4Herd:
Originally posted by GreenDuke:


Originally posted by CockyHerd:
That's one of the reasons I love the Masters. They don't get too caught up in the winning score. It's the best players in the world playing the same golf course.

USGA goes over board with "identifying the best player"......Michael Campbell, Lucas Glover, Geoff Ogilvy.....Really?

The weather dictated the course conditions Thursday & Friday......Then they decided to give the players an opportunity to close the gap Saturday and Sunday.

I much prefer The Masters because weather and conditions rarely decides the winner, the players do!
__________________________________________________________________________________________

^^^ Spot on, they could have sucked the moisture out of the greens but that's not what the conditions were. They let the course and the conditions play out, the right course of action.



_________________________________________________________________________________

I disagree. They haven't always been happy with the course playing out. And Cocky....they have gotten caught up in the golf course. Tiger played the same course as everyone else in 1997. That day only 16 players were under par with Tom Kite 12 strokes behind at -6. Compare that to yesterday's Masters that saw 32 people under par and 20 golfers below (better) the score that Kite got a second place finish with.

The powers that be at the Masters immediately lengthened the entire course (Tiger-proofed it). That just doesn't sound like a group that's not a little embarrassed when someone wrecks the course.


This post was edited on 4/13 8:23 PM by GK4Herd

The entire field wrecked the course. It was average by PGA standards(in terms of difficulty) and nobody wants to say it. The thing that typically separates Augusta National are the greens and their speed, matched with contours. The greens were not fast and the course was not protected.

And, don't give me the stuff about playing the course as it is. Augusta changed as many as 8 tee boxes since 1997. Lengthened the course to nearly 7500 yards and introduced a one of a kind sub air system to control green speeds. Oh, they introduced rough or as they like to call it the second cut.

Augusta, to protect the course, either has to make the greens lightning fast or they will have to introduce deeper rough and narrow fairways. As a guy said today, if Tiger would have had this particular course in 1997 he would have shot 27 to 30 under par in 97.

I think what happened is they let the course play as it was on Friday and Saturday. Then, as time went on they wanted to leave the greens receptive so guys could try to catch Spieth on Sunday. What happened is they turned the Masters into the John Deere Classic.

You're confusing playing conditions with design changes made to the course between tournaments. They didn't attempt to alter the course condition by artificially removing moisture, moisture that wasn't impeding play. Obviously they were ok with the low scoring, the Masters has never been about protecting par, they want a good tv show and they usually get it. I think we pretty much agree, its just semantics.

Never protecting par? OK, maybe not par. That is generally tabbed to the USGA in reference to the US Open.

But, you cannot deny that Augusta National and its membership has tried to protect the course previously. There was even a term applied to that: Tiger Proofing. Again, lengthened the course, added rough, changed tee boxes, and narrowed fairways. They did this right after he blistered the course and the field.

Why do they have a sub air system in the greens? If they want things to play out then why not just let nature take its course? Oh, wait they do that to speed the greens up in many cases? Why? The thing that protects Augusta National from low scores are the greens.

 

[-Olen-]

Originally posted by i am herdman:

Never protecting par? OK, maybe not par. That is generally tabbed to the USGA in reference to the US Open.

But, you cannot deny that Augusta National and its membership has tried to protect the course previously. There was even a term applied to that: Tiger Proofing. Again, lengthened the course, added rough, changed tee boxes, and narrowed fairways. They did this right after he blistered the course and the field.

Why do they have a sub air system in the greens? If they want things to play out then why not just let nature take its course? Oh, wait they do that to speed the greens up in many cases? Why? The thing that protects Augusta National from low scores are the greens.

Tiger blistered Augusta in 1997 (just like Floyd in 1976 at 17 under and winning by 8, and Nicklaus in 1965 at 17 under and winning by 9) -- the course was not lengthened until 2002.

The Sub-Air system is is a pump connected to existing drainage pipes in the greens to facilitate removal of standing water more quickly, since it occasionally rains in Augusta, GA in early April. Similar systems are used in sports stadiums around the country for use after heavy rains. If the superintendent is going to the trouble of drying out the greens to make them quicker, the most efficient and effective way is using a fan (an industrial/mine fan or something of comparable size).

This post was edited on 4/15 9:23 AM by -Olen-

 

[GreenDuke]

Originally posted by i am herdman:

Originally posted by GreenDuke:

Originally posted by i am herdman:

Originally posted by GK4Herd:
Originally posted by GreenDuke:


Originally posted by CockyHerd:
That's one of the reasons I love the Masters. They don't get too caught up in the winning score. It's the best players in the world playing the same golf course.

USGA goes over board with "identifying the best player"......Michael Campbell, Lucas Glover, Geoff Ogilvy.....Really?

The weather dictated the course conditions Thursday & Friday......Then they decided to give the players an opportunity to close the gap Saturday and Sunday.

I much prefer The Masters because weather and conditions rarely decides the winner, the players do!
__________________________________________________________________________________________

^^^ Spot on, they could have sucked the moisture out of the greens but that's not what the conditions were. They let the course and the conditions play out, the right course of action.



_________________________________________________________________________________

I disagree. They haven't always been happy with the course playing out. And Cocky....they have gotten caught up in the golf course. Tiger played the same course as everyone else in 1997. That day only 16 players were under par with Tom Kite 12 strokes behind at -6. Compare that to yesterday's Masters that saw 32 people under par and 20 golfers below (better) the score that Kite got a second place finish with.

The powers that be at the Masters immediately lengthened the entire course (Tiger-proofed it). That just doesn't sound like a group that's not a little embarrassed when someone wrecks the course.



This post was edited on 4/13 8:23 PM by GK4Herd

The entire field wrecked the course. It was average by PGA standards(in terms of difficulty) and nobody wants to say it. The thing that typically separates Augusta National are the greens and their speed, matched with contours. The greens were not fast and the course was not protected.

And, don't give me the stuff about playing the course as it is. Augusta changed as many as 8 tee boxes since 1997. Lengthened the course to nearly 7500 yards and introduced a one of a kind sub air system to control green speeds. Oh, they introduced rough or as they like to call it the second cut.

Augusta, to protect the course, either has to make the greens lightning fast or they will have to introduce deeper rough and narrow fairways. As a guy said today, if Tiger would have had this particular course in 1997 he would have shot 27 to 30 under par in 97.

I think what happened is they let the course play as it was on Friday and Saturday. Then, as time went on they wanted to leave the greens receptive so guys could try to catch Spieth on Sunday. What happened is they turned the Masters into the John Deere Classic.

You're confusing playing conditions with design changes made to the course between tournaments. They didn't attempt to alter the course condition by artificially removing moisture, moisture that wasn't impeding play. Obviously they were ok with the low scoring, the Masters has never been about protecting par, they want a good tv show and they usually get it. I think we pretty much agree, its just semantics.

Never protecting par? OK, maybe not par. That is generally tabbed to the USGA in reference to the US Open.

But, you cannot deny that Augusta National and its membership has tried to protect the course previously. There was even a term applied to that: Tiger Proofing. Again, lengthened the course, added rough, changed tee boxes, and narrowed fairways. They did this right after he blistered the course and the field.

Why do they have a sub air system in the greens? If they want things to play out then why not just let nature take its course? Oh, wait they do that to speed the greens up in many cases? Why? The thing that protects Augusta National from low scores are the greens.

Your still confusing off season changes to the course and playing conditions during the competition.

 

[CockyHerd]

Originally posted by GK4Herd:
I understand your point in differentiating between course design and course conditions. I just disagree with the premise that the conditions aren't manipulated because they don't care about the score (Cocky's assertion) AND the course redesign since '97 wasn't in response to keeping scores down. The SubAir system that is in place at the Masters is the ultimate manipulation of course conditions in order to maintain a degree of difficulty that is expected from a major venue. And I can't believe that anyone could honestly believe that the lengthening of the course wasn't in response to how Tiger and others were beginning to make a mockery of the course by overpowering it. Both the SubAir system and the course lengthening were both designed to maintain a level of integrity of the course. Both of those events seem to contradict, in my opinion, Cocky's assertion and your validation of his opinion. Herdman is spot on here.

I never said they don't care about the score! I said "they don't get too caught up in the score". Unlike the USGA and their claim of protecting par.

The Masters puts a premium on drama and a competitive tournament.

 

[i am herdman]

Then, why did they add rough, move tee boxes, lengthen the course, etc.

No course wants people to destroy it. You don't want a regular tour event being harder than a major.

Here is what happened. Spieth got out to a lead and the committee was thinking the only way to have a closer event or have someone catch him is to leave the greens soft.

What happened was a birdie fest. I am ok with that, but let' s put the win in perspective. The guys tied for second were at -14 and that wins 72 Masters events in history. Last year Bubba Watson won with -8 under and only 5 guys were under par.

 

[CockyHerd]

Originally posted by i am herdman:
Then, why did they add rough, move tee boxes, lengthen the course, etc.

No course wants people to destroy it. You don't want a regular tour event being harder than a major.

Here is what happened. Spieth got out to a lead and the committee was thinking the only way to have a closer event or have someone catch him is to leave the greens soft.

What happened was a birdie fest. I am ok with that, but let' s put the win in perspective. The guys tied for second were at -14 and that wins 72 Masters events in history. Last year Bubba Watson won with -8 under and only 5 guys were under par.

Question #1......Technology. The ball goes 15% farther and clubs allow you to spin the ball out of most lies unless you add a little rough.

Question #2.......No kidding. Especially the Private Clubs that host US Opens. Just ask the members at Congressional. They lost their minds in 2011. But the weather and Rory going off had a lot to do with that.

Question/Statement #3........Absolutely and as I said.....That's what I love about The Masters.

Question/Statement #4.......It happens. These guys are good. Phil went -16 in 2010......Anthony Kim shot 65 on Sunday. Hell, the year before, AK made 11 birdies in one round. Every so many years players go off at the Masters. Usually do to the weather.

If you played the course in mid Summer (which you can't, it's closed) they could make the course unplayable.

I just personally prefer The Masters & The PGA......They don't try to trick the course up just for the sake of "protecting" par. The Open Championship is cool but I don't like that the weather alone can have such an impact on the tournament.

I have no problem with "birdie fests"......Within reason. It's not like the average golfer (even scratch) would have gone out there and approached par.......The best amateurs in the world didn't even make the cut this year.

 

[i am herdman]

I like the Masters as well, typically my favorite major. But, I am not going to deny what happens. I have no doubt they changed the courses to protect it.

 

[CockyHerd]

Courses had to be lengthened to protect the game. To keep it at least somewhat in line with the past due to technology.

No one averaged over 300 yards off the tee until 1997.....It topped out at 321 in 2003. The USGA then began limiting the MOI of drivers. Now the best is 315 but 20 players average more than 300.

Then manufacturers upgraded the ball........Now it's the irons. Tour players are hitting 4 irons 250 yards in the air.

Economics and ecology are eventually going to demand that they get a handle on the ball and irons.

Imagine if MLB allowed the use of aluminum bats. Heck, even little league had to start restricting bats.

Tennis has limits on the racket and the balls.