The Current State of Men's Basketball
- Thread starter BleedsGreen33
- Start date
We've dropped 7 out of the last 8. This is what I get for looking forward to basketball this year.
That’s a guy at wits end. He’s right, the team has a very small margin of error. There are two pretty good Div 1 athletes and two or three more who are good players despite average athleticism. That’s about it and when they don’t close out defensively, rebound passionately, and don’t value the ball in crunch time, it’s not going to end well. I feel really bad for the whole squad and the coaches they looked completely beat down after tonights game.
The issue there is that he is responsible for those deficiencies. He recruited the roster. One guy leaving isn’t the issue here anymore.
Sash19 you hit the nail on the head. DD and staff have got to find and recruit a really good “big” man to have any success. We have none that can help. Time now to look forward as we continue to struggle. Without a true Big next year will be no better and who really knows if Bennett will be a player or not. We have more questions than answers.
Our bigs may be the most unathletic collection of inside players in D1. The Serbs can't jump over a piece of notebook paper. Williams tries but he's slow off the floor as well.The beatdown we took on glass last night makes me think it's a miracle we've won as many this year as we have!
Yep. The Peneva excuse has sailed. We needed better recruiting in the post. Bennett, we knew would be tough since his weight ballooned. The staff should have looked for a big guy way before Penava bolted. We've had a whole season to adjust from his loss and we have gotten worse.
DD certainly has done well up until this year, thus no need to jump off the ledge but next year will be a year of adjusting. Teams now know how to defend our scheme, the staff will have to plan accordingly. 20-21 we could be damn good IF everyone stays and DD can get a big guy in the middle to compliment Bennett - IF he can the weight off and improve.
So without being mean towards the kid but speaking from someone who has watched and been around college basketball my whole life-Bennett is going to be a redshirt sophomore next year. That will be his 3rd year on campus. Thus far, what has he provided the program? A redshirt year and now 5 points per game and 130 minutes spread over 10 games of a season that is 26 games in. At some point, reality sets in and his "ability" is outweighed by his "inability." Take "inability" to mean whatever you want, but it isnt a positive word by definition. Dan needs to recruit better big men but ones that fit his style. His style is not one that an old school big man who plays with their back to the basket and doesnt have to get out on the break will ever succeed in. He needs bigs that can run and that are active. Hell, recruit a bunch of 6'9" 4's that can run and shoot and let them rotate at center. To use former Marshall players as examples, go get a Rodney Holden type center that can move, run and jump. Its the CUSA not the 1980's Big East.....
Only outrebounded by 2 last night. Shooting % about the same. We just had tooooo many stuuuupid turnovers. Missed lobs. Poor passes. Never seen DD this ticked.
The turnovers were key but the rebounding numbers are misleading.
Marshall lost the contest(conTEST not CONtest) battle on the boards, in other words UAB earned their board advantage albeit a slim margin.
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You have described probably a 4 or 5 star player conveted by major conferences. I guess the key for MU’s staff is identifying these players as early as possible and building a relationship with them so they can get a young man of this caliber to take a chance on Marshall.
We have a couple on the roster in Williams and Beyers but they just haven't developed quickly enough - especially Beyers. I'm still a believer in Williams and think he will be a star by the time he leaves MU.
Dajour Rucker isn't 6'9" but he plays very similarly to Ryan Taylor - which is something this team needs. Hopefully he can step in and play meaningful minutes right way next year.
That is in no way what I was describing. You dont get many high 4/5 stars at many CUSA schools unless they are legacy or $$$. You can however find 3 star guys that are athletic but need a little help harnessing their ability. There are alot of guys out there that fit that mold that would come to Marshall. For example, I am a Xavier grad and we signed a kid for next year from the Northern KY area. He goes to a smaller school named Walton Verona. He is young for his grade and 6'11" and very raw. We came in very late and got him to sign with us over schools like Morehead State, NKU and WKU. Since then his on court play and strength have gotten his ranking up to being a top 250 kid in the country. If Dan cant recruit and win some battles against NKU or Morehead State then their is no hope.
Obviously it isnt all on the coaches when it comes to development but what do you attribute the lack of development Chris? And ask yourself-what is the likelyhood they can develop? Might be too early to tell but also might be "writing on the wall", I dont know.....more for conversation sake.
Raw rebounding #s are worthless to look at. There's so much that goes into them. You have to pick them apart.
1) You have to look at "reboundable shots", meaning missed shots.
1a) You also have to look at missed FTs. There wasn't much disparity there last night, but missed FTs on live ball shots (front end of a 1-and-1 or the last allotted FT attempt). Both teams can miss 5 FTs, but if one team's misses are on reboundable shots and the other team's isn't, there 5 easy rebounds for one team over the other.
2) The offensive rebounding numbers are also not equal. If you give up a long rebound, the offense has to reset, and your defense is set, it's just another possession. However, when you give up an offensive rebound and your opponent can go right back up and score it without a chance to defend a 2nd (or 3rd/4th attempt) attempt, those are back breakers.
3) Rebounding from guards/break starters is also huge. When a big man gets a rebound, he's usually holding it, waiting for a guard (sometimes the opposition shows some cheap denial to make the guard go get it). This allows the defense to set up. But when you have a guard get a rebound, he can start your early offense and this makes the defense sprint back. Last season when we had Penava, he would pull down a rebound and start the break himself. Elmore & Burks would run out and spot up on the wings while the other two guys ran to the corner. The opposing big had to stop Penava (usually took help) and we would have a wide open 3 in the first 5-8 seconds of the possession.
We've never been good at 1-3 under Dantoni. But our offense was good enough with Taylor, Loop, Browning, Burks, & Elmore to compensate for our losses there. Last season we were better at 1 & 2, but was really good at 3 and even though the rebounding #s were not in our favor, that #3 aspect made it a positive. Right now, we're just a big pile of shit across the board. We're small & when Watson, Williams, Beyers, Kinsey, or whoever gets a rebound, it's not a sprint to put pressure on the opposition. It's slow, lazy ass offense to accompany our unathletic defense. The ball (as Dantoni talks about) is as unathletic as our team.
1) You have to look at "reboundable shots", meaning missed shots.
UAB shot 28/69 from the field--missing 41 shots.
Marshall shot 23/57 from the field--missing 34 shots.
So, Marshall had 7 more rebound opportunities from FGs than UAB had.
Marshall shot 23/57 from the field--missing 34 shots.
So, Marshall had 7 more rebound opportunities from FGs than UAB had.
1a) You also have to look at missed FTs. There wasn't much disparity there last night, but missed FTs on live ball shots (front end of a 1-and-1 or the last allotted FT attempt). Both teams can miss 5 FTs, but if one team's misses are on reboundable shots and the other team's isn't, there 5 easy rebounds for one team over the other.
2) The offensive rebounding numbers are also not equal. If you give up a long rebound, the offense has to reset, and your defense is set, it's just another possession. However, when you give up an offensive rebound and your opponent can go right back up and score it without a chance to defend a 2nd (or 3rd/4th attempt) attempt, those are back breakers.
3) Rebounding from guards/break starters is also huge. When a big man gets a rebound, he's usually holding it, waiting for a guard (sometimes the opposition shows some cheap denial to make the guard go get it). This allows the defense to set up. But when you have a guard get a rebound, he can start your early offense and this makes the defense sprint back. Last season when we had Penava, he would pull down a rebound and start the break himself. Elmore & Burks would run out and spot up on the wings while the other two guys ran to the corner. The opposing big had to stop Penava (usually took help) and we would have a wide open 3 in the first 5-8 seconds of the possession.
We've never been good at 1-3 under Dantoni. But our offense was good enough with Taylor, Loop, Browning, Burks, & Elmore to compensate for our losses there. Last season we were better at 1 & 2, but was really good at 3 and even though the rebounding #s were not in our favor, that #3 aspect made it a positive. Right now, we're just a big pile of shit across the board. We're small & when Watson, Williams, Beyers, Kinsey, or whoever gets a rebound, it's not a sprint to put pressure on the opposition. It's slow, lazy ass offense to accompany our unathletic defense. The ball (as Dantoni talks about) is as unathletic as our team.
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Usually Williams and Beyers are playing out of their natural position. They aren't 5 guys. Mostly 3-4. Better find a true 5 or we'll be talking about this same stuff this time next year. The new kids will have to adjust and that will take a better part of the OOC to do that; if not longer. We put too much damn hope on the new kids coming in. Just like Bennett.
Very few three star or lower players can run, jump, and shoot from the perimeter in the manner DD wants.
Most guys have a hole in their game, the aforementioned RH’s reliable shooting range was five feet. I suppose the key is putting the puzzle together to hide and compliment each players plusses and minuses.
Most guys have a hole in their game, the aforementioned RH’s reliable shooting range was five feet. I suppose the key is putting the puzzle together to hide and compliment each players plusses and minuses.
I just don't know how anyone can say this with any confidence.
We lose Elmore and Burks. While they have had less than a stellar year that's a lot of production and leadership that we are losing. I mean we lost just one player from last season and we all thought with everyone else coming back we were going great this year.
There are just way too many unknowns going into next year. Who runs point? There isn't a player on this roster or coming in that we know can push this offense to the same levels that Elmore could when he was clicking. I don't know much about the new guy we're bringing in, but he is unproven. Kinsey is an amazing talent, but most of his reputation to this point is playing off the ball. West is a good player, but can he command the offense the same.
Once we figure that out then you have to have a #2 that is going to produce the way Burks could.
We still don't have an answer to the BIG man question. I just don't see it with Bennett right now. As someone else pointed out he's been year over 2 years and he still has weight issues and struggles to keep pace and he can be clumsy at times. I will tell you this. I don't care who we bring in. I assume Cline is still coaching the bigs. I may be wrong about that. If we don't get someone different to do that job it doesn't matter.
I know that Elmore and Burks have really fallen off in second half of the season, but this is one of the best back courts in program history. Elmore is knocking on the door of being the all-time scorer. That is asking a lot for someone to just step into next season. Right now everyone else on this team is a role player.
I doubt we finish .500 next year.
Thats part of a coaches job....recruit pieces to fit your puzzle and when you cant/didnt, scheme to hide it as much as possible until you fix it.
Bleeds, I said 20-21, not next year. Next year will be a challenge and agree, .500 would be about right.
My bad.
I even worry about the season after. Unless Dan strikes big on the next recruiting class. I really like a lot of the players we currently have, but I do not see any stars on this team outside of Kinsey and his game may suffer if we don't get a sufficient replacement for Elmore.
Dan has been a very good coach, but the thing that changed this program was when Elmore took over.
I still scratch my head over how Dan couldn't parlay last year's conference championship and NCAA Tournament win into higher quality recruits.
Don't we really not need one but 2 big men and a big man coach? Further we are not an NBA team so can this crab of having a man in the corner and make this man flow in the game. Another thing we have never had a big man coach. Show or tell me when was the last time we have had a big man dominate the center of the lane. It's time for Danny to make some changes. And for no other reason use a time out when the momentum has switched to the team before we get down 20 points.
We need to start George and Williams and play them together to have a chance on the boards.
Basketball 2018-19 = Football 2016
GOOD POINTS....It's difficult to replace 40 points/game. HOWEVER, perhaps the new guys will be FASTER? Jon is not a speed merchant by any means...this is one of the reasons he will play pro ball outside the NBA. Burks is a mystery man.....one game he shows up---the next game he is AWOL. Dan & the staff are puzzled why the team is not clicking and have "no heart" to win, since the losing streak started after being 5-0 in CUSA play. I predict MTSU beats The HERD at 2:00 PM Saturday...Marshall is relegated to the 3rd POD...goes to Fricso, Texas...and departs quickly! NO MIRACLES THIS YEAR.
Watching Charlotte Christian (27-1) hoops @ 2:00 PM in a quarter final game on their way to a State Championship.....Good Luck HERD without me tuning in on Face Book.
HerdZilla22 in Charlotte
After watching today's win over MTSU, I believe a guy like the Raiders' Scurry, a 6'7", 230# banger, who also has an effective inside game, would do wonders for the Herd. He went up all game long, it seemed, surrounded by Herd players, for offensive rebounds, put backs, etc. He and MTSU's junior guard, Green, who hit something like 7 threes today, both had career scoring highs today.
A Scurry would hopefully allow Williams to stay outside more on offense, giving him more opportunities for his 3 pt. spot up shot, which, in turn, would make defenses to have to send one of their front line guys to go out on Jannson if he gets hot. That would leave less defenders available to clog the lane when an Elmore, Burks, etc., drive inside.
A Scurry would hopefully allow Williams to stay outside more on offense, giving him more opportunities for his 3 pt. spot up shot, which, in turn, would make defenses to have to send one of their front line guys to go out on Jannson if he gets hot. That would leave less defenders available to clog the lane when an Elmore, Burks, etc., drive inside.
X signed a guy over those programs? You don't say....
Not exactly sure your point given I was saying he is the type of player Marshall should/could target long term and land versus teams like X or Louisville who both came in late.
My point is if someone is good enough for that level of program and gets an offer it is really hard to turn that down. We are not going to compete with those level of programs. And we cannot compete with getting an Xavier education either.
I had the pleasure to watch JUSTICE AJOGBOR (Nigeria) play for Christ School of Arden, NC [school where the 3 Plumlee brothers played before heading to Duke) Saturday against Charlotte Christian (you know that pvt HS that produced Stef Curry). Ajogbor is 6'10", a junior that has over 25 D-1 offers [according to an assistant coach that played hoops with Jon Elmore {perhaps Matt Cioce or Isaac Rankin}. Ajogbor has offers from Harvard, Yale, and other top academic colleges/universities, in addition to SEC, ACC and Big 12 schools. I bet Huggy Bear has an eye on him!!! Ajogbor is a very powerful player, rebounder, shot blocker, SCORER, handles the ball like a guard. I watched him & thought...."if he was only at Marshall---RIGHT NOW!" Their point guard, senior, KOJACK THOMPSON (headed to Roanoke College due to his Muggsy Bogues size).....has major quickness, DRIBBLES the ball like a magician (27-2 Christian could not defend nor contain him)---could fit in well at Marshall. I once asked Mark Cline----"do you recruit the Charlotte area?" His reply...."we know well the top 10 Charlotte area guys are going to play in the ACC, SEC, Appy State, even Charlotte------we believe our top WV talent are equal in ability to Charlotte players that rank higher than Top 10." I am not so sure sure about that!
Question? Is West Virginia producing any players NOW that mirror, Elmore, Burks, Yates? If not--- our recruiters need to come to North Carolina and look at some gifted players at schools in the Queen City. BTW...Coach Ron Sanchez (UNCC) just plucked two Charlotte area top players that had committed to the ACC to join the 49ers next season to compliment a 6'11' guy from Yugoslavia and a point guard from DeMatha Catholic HS, Hyattsville, MD. The 49ers are BUILDING a program since Sanchez (asst @ UVA) took over this season [3-11; 6-19] with the players that had been recruited by terminated, Mark Price (Ga Tech & the NBA--Cleveland Cavs---head coach at Charlotte for 3 years) . You do recall The HERD beat the 49ers----85-84, Jan 5..... and Charlotte had a chance to win until Mikel Beyers swatted a Jon Davis jump shot out of bounds as time expired! Davis torched the HERD for 37 points {9/20 FG & 14/16 FT}.
HerdZilla22 In Rainy Charlotte
Question? Is West Virginia producing any players NOW that mirror, Elmore, Burks, Yates? If not--- our recruiters need to come to North Carolina and look at some gifted players at schools in the Queen City. BTW...Coach Ron Sanchez (UNCC) just plucked two Charlotte area top players that had committed to the ACC to join the 49ers next season to compliment a 6'11' guy from Yugoslavia and a point guard from DeMatha Catholic HS, Hyattsville, MD. The 49ers are BUILDING a program since Sanchez (asst @ UVA) took over this season [3-11; 6-19] with the players that had been recruited by terminated, Mark Price (Ga Tech & the NBA--Cleveland Cavs---head coach at Charlotte for 3 years) . You do recall The HERD beat the 49ers----85-84, Jan 5..... and Charlotte had a chance to win until Mikel Beyers swatted a Jon Davis jump shot out of bounds as time expired! Davis torched the HERD for 37 points {9/20 FG & 14/16 FT}.
HerdZilla22 In Rainy Charlotte
I agree, those types of player will be hard to get over the power conference schools. We could try to build relationships earlier, but we could just do what WKU does and hire the daddy, momma, or uncle of the 4-5 star player they want to the staff. That supposedly isn't a violation, but it feels dirty.
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It is too early to give up on Bennett. Peneva was even worse than Bennett as a RS-FR and he turned out alright. A fit and healthy Bennett could make a big difference for us next season.
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That may be true but Dan needs to plan like he won’t be in the shape needed. And not put all the eggs in one basket.
If IB is in shape and plays well next year, that would be gravy.
Sometimes this recruiting stuff goes in cycles. In the past, we've had some success recruiting up in the Pittsburgh area (Malik Hightower, D'Andre Kane, IIRC). In the past MU has gotten some good recruits from the greater DC area. Donnie Jones recruited heavily from the Florida area. Shaq Johnson for one. Yes, Damier Pitts and Whiteside both from the Charlotte area. MU has historically done well in KY, Redd, Stone, Noll, Brannen, etc. Somewhat similar results in Ohio due to our long history in the MAC. Apparently, Danny and staff are finding success in Central Ohio with the likes of Kinsey and Brooks-Harris. Both Danny and Greg White heavily recruited WV and there's no problem with that.
Good another positive report from practice. I was wondering when we’d see one. I’m sure this time it will translate on to the court during games
