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We should take Zuckerberg, Musk and a few other out-of-their-minds billionaires . . .

murox

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May 29, 2001
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And give them each 500 people for whom they provide a universal basic income as a test run. These guys are so disengaged from the real world that they believe this would actually work in any capacity other than giving pieces of sh!t even more resources to pursue piece of sh!t activities and burden society.

We could even make it a reality show, so the entire world can laugh as Zuckerberg's heroin addicts fall further into addition, while Musk's leeches find new ways to pair mountain dew with slim jims.
 
We'll get the chance to observe if this is a bad idea or not because the Netherlands and Finland are rolling it out in a limited capacity. And while I share your sentiment that there will be a segment of society that uses this to promote their "piece of sh!t" lifestyle I disagree with your sweeping generalization. Although hard nosed rhetoric promotes the chorus of high fives (in this case likes) from the usual suspects, I think you need to ask yourself are your feelings a concern that people would abuse it or is it more a way of trumpeting your own success? I've been guilty of the same rhetoric when I was younger. When you work your tail off and experience a little success financially and you see those who don't put out the same effort and live off the fruits of government and our tax money it gives you a moral soapbox to stand upon and preach.

But what I realized as I got older was that I wasn't denouncing the lazy and degenerate of society as much as I was elevating my own experience. And while I deplore those who don't work or try, I also understand that generational poverty is a tough cycle to break. For every rags to riches story there's a hundred people trapped in the cycle that won't escape. And as much as we feel good about our own success, it doesn't change the fact that those born into poverty are indoctrinated into a mindset that is different than what most of us experienced. I had very little when I was a kid, but I had intelligent caring parents who put me on the track to college and success. But most born into generational poverty come from uneducated parents with problems such as addiction who indoctrinate them into a mindset that's almost impossible to shake.

When you're born into generational poverty you aren't instilled with the expectations of successful careers or high income. You don't have the support at home necessary to raise the bar of expectations for your success in school. Even those who aspire to more aren't privileged to the resources necessary to pull them out of the cycle. Their circle of associations are other low income, uneducated people. They've never had the opportunity to observe successful people. They never experienced a model of success of any kind.

So I tend to agree that universal basic income as proposed is flawed, but I disagree with your characterization of the heroin addicted, Mountain Dew and Slim Jim eating group. They exist...sure. But so do the countless people stuck in low wage jobs not because they were lazy or less ambitious than you or I, but because they weren't afforded the same opportunity. And the divide is going to get worse. As jobs continue to be exported, technology will take its toll as well. Autonomous vehicles are just around the corner. Trucking companies are already applying for use of the technology. Hundreds of thousands of jobs of hardworking people are going to be lost. The divide between the haves and have nots is going to widen.

How are we going to deal as a society with a widening economic gap? Do you and I revel in the fact that we got ours, f*** everybody else? Do we fool ourselves into believing that we are special and continue to use the addicted and poor as a pedestal to elevate our own experience and feel good about ourselves?

Look...I get up at 5:30 and go to work every day. I also run a business with two locations and 12 employees on top of that. I work very hard. My income is good and I came from a low income upbringing. I hate sloth and non working able bodied people as much as the next. But I'm not fooling myself into believing that every person who hasn't reached my perceived elevated heights was because they somehow didn't try as hard as I did. (I say perceived because in the grand scheme I've done nothing special.)

It just isn't as simple as we make it sometimes. But when we view the world through ideological lenses (here I go again), we tend to believe that the case examples we use to extol our worldview are the norm. They aren't. The element you describe exists and should be criticized. But there are countless hard working, low income people who are fighting from week to week to make ends meet who are in that position because of the lot they were born into. Like I said...not that simple.
 
The problem is of course that a UBI is not going to inculcate those values to those who need it. A government hand out only encourages that kind of lifestyle.

The vast majority of that group are growing up in homes with a rolling list of sperm-donors named "dad" and until our culture deals with the actual problem instead of just tossing money at things then you could make the UBI $100,000 a year and it would have zero effect in fixing the kinds of things you note GK.
 
The problem is of course that a UBI is not going to inculcate those values to those who need it. A government hand out only encourages that kind of lifestyle.

The vast majority of that group are growing up in homes with a rolling list of sperm-donors named "dad" and until our culture deals with the actual problem instead of just tossing money at things then you could make the UBI $100,000 a year and it would have zero effect in fixing the kinds of things you note GK.

I don't necessarily disagree. I'm not endorsing it because I don't think it can be paid for. At least I haven't adequately been explained how it will be paid for, But the characterization that this is another slush fund for the addicted and lazy is a false representation. That element certainly exists, but it would go to everyone as I understand it.

So for every drug addicted sloth that Rox characterized there's also going to be the guys and gals that go to work in low income jobs....jobs that need to be done by someone...who struggle to pay the rent, utilities, and buy food that will benefit as well.

And as I pointed out, the split between the poor and rich is going to increase. Industrial jobs of the past are just that...of the past. Our jobs are being exported and technology will also eliminate jobs. Good paying middle class jobs have been disappearing since the 70s and the gap will continue to widen. This is going to create an expanding group of willing workers with little options for a decent income and livable wages. The days of graduating from high school one week, and going to work at the local factory at a decent wage and working to retirement is a thing of the past for the most part.

Again...Im not supporting UBI right now because I don't think we can pay for it. I'd have to see how it goes in other places and learn more. It would have to replace our existing welfare system and incorporate that funding I would think. Of course my entertaining it for the sake of discussion will be vilified by those who can't separate the fact that open mindedness should be exercised while you're learning about it. But I'm sure the onslaught of conservatives haven't really hit this thread yet and will roundly read past my non endorsement and rush to call me a liberal because I correctly stated that the abusers of the system don't represent the whole.
 
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I can't believe this is actually being discussed. I have far more objections to this other than who is going to pay for it, because that answer is obvious.
 
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Other than a ubi, there are only 2 other options that I know of.
1. A high top marginal tax rate that forces the wealthy to spend money or
2. Become a 3rd world country with no middle class.
 
I probably fall somewhere between murox and GK on this one.

One big subset of people that support this (or at least do on reddit) I disagree with is the middle to upper class white "adults" that just don't get that their pursuit of art or history or women's studies won't pay the bills...and they think they're entitled to pursue these things in spite of the fact they don't generate income.

At some point your hobbies have to take a back seat to paying the bills.

It's undeniable that the rich have the freedom to pursue more art or whatever due to a built in financial safety net... call me a pessimist but I don't think the world will become a better place if we just give away free money so more hipsters can start their organic soap company or whatever other crappy art or business persuit. I know this is hyperbole but I just don't think the next big breakthrough comes because of Universal basic income and I think the cons of it (further advancing entitlement, abuse , increase in taxes that may lead to less charitable giving, etc).

I'm not sure exactly where the balance is, but that fear of poverty keeps people working hard (and may potentially curb drug use or unhealthy habits) but it certainly keeps people from seeking other more engaging endeavors while they spin their wheels in a dead end job in relative poverty. Like murox says though, it's kind of utopian and maybe unrealistic to think that universal income will lead to people to have freedom to pursue other things that will benefit society and not just eliminate that fear of poverty so people use the freedom to just be more lazy or addicted.
 
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Also, agree with Keep that arguably the #1 problem guaranteeing generational poverty is the exponential increase in single parent households. I don't see how UBI helps this and may worsen it.

I'm not well versed on this though, but if you have UBI do you then get rid of food stamps? It seems again utopian to think people would spend their UBI correctly...so you'd probably end up with UBI in addition to food stamps and the government growth /dependence just continues on and on in a huge spiral.
 
Glanced at that Friedman stuff. Seems good in theory, but...

it just seems very counter intuitive to me to think a government that does UBI will just give you X dollars and then just leave you be with all that personal responsibility to fend for your own if you spend it incorrectly. I thought the reality would be UBI on top of everything else, and that just seems like a net zero or negative.

If it really worked like Friedman proposes I'd be on board. The pragmatism in me says it won't look like that. Too many agendas and the government never shrinks. Ever.
 
I think all Federal spending should be sent in block grants to the States.

The State should then decide how to spend the x Billion dollars it receives.
 
I think all Federal spending should be sent in block grants to the States.
The State should then decide how to spend the x Billion dollars it receives.

I could agree with this too. Would be especially good because poverty/problems in California look very different than that in Vermont or WV.

We're just so far from this it's hard to imagine.
 
This whole UBI thing is something I've just started to read about. The truth of the matter is that my initial instinct was to default into a reaction similar to Rox's. But after looking into the issue I discover that it isn't something new (Thomas Payne supported it) and it isn't a cut and dry liberal agenda either.

My point in my first reply to Rox was NOT an endorsement of UBI but an observation on how the conservative response is automatically "just more money for drug addicted bums" at the expense of everyone else that's working their tail off. That is a conservative default and doesn't accurately depict the concept of UBI. Everyone receives it. Again... fairly assessing what it is isn't an endorsement. But it certainly isn't what I thought it was when I looked into it with an open mind.
 
technology will take its toll as well. Autonomous vehicles are just around the corner. Trucking companies are already applying for use of the technology. Hundreds of thousands of jobs of hardworking people are going to be lost. The divide between the haves and have nots is going to widen.

I am glad someone here has realized this. If you are willing to work hard and never be home, a trucking job can pay $80k a year after a couple years. And it's a goddamn stressful job. Autonomous trucking is going to fvck a lot of good people.
 
Will those that have built a career over years of hard work and now enjoy a good salary be eligible for the same UBI benefits as those that have not applied themselves in the same manner?

If so, sign me up. If not, I'd rather not get penalized for years of hard work and stress.
 
Will those that have built a career over years of hard work and now enjoy a good salary be eligible for the same UBI benefits as those that have not applied themselves in the same manner?

If so, sign me up. If not, I'd rather not get penalized for years of hard work and stress.

Everyone gets UBI and the amount is the same without regard to income.
 
Sorry, but this whole idea is crap. If you make $20,000 a year you are in the top 5% of wage earners on the planet. The problem with America these days is that people have absolutely no concept of what poor really is.

Giving people a guaranteed level of income simply eliminates the need for personal responsibility and financial management. "Poor people" in this country have smart phones with data plans, cable TV, high speed internet for their tablets, get their nails done, get tattoos, buy designer clothes and shoes for their kids, have a car and a roof over their heads.

The concept of wants versus needs has vanished for Americans over the last 30 or so years. Nothing but first world problems like having to have an IPhone 5 when the 7s are already out. I see it with my wife being a third grade teacher. Almost every kid has a smart phone, but they don't pay their book fees and are on free lunch. However, they do have new Nike shoes, 9 year old girls getting their nails done every week, they spend 100s on tumbling and gymnastics.

So what do you do, throw an extra $25,000 or $50,000 a year at these folks so they can make two trips a year to Disney instead on one? Give them money so they can upgrade their phones and iPads? Or now maybe that family that only makes $30,000 a year can go ahead and have that 4th and 5th kid they've been wanting since they have extra cash.
 
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Sorry, but this whole idea is crap. If you make $20,000 a year you are in the top 5% of wage earners on the planet. The problem with America these days is that people have absolutely no concept of what poor really is.

Giving people a guaranteed level of income simply eliminates the need for personal responsibility and financial management. "Poor people" in this country have smart phones with data plans, cable TV, high speed internet for their tablets, get their nails done, get tattoos, buy designer clothes and shoes for their kids, have a car and a roof over their heads.

The concept of wants versus needs has vanished for Americans over the last 30 or so years. Nothing but first world problems like having to have an IPhone 5 when the 7s are already out. I see it with my wife being a third grade teacher. Almost every kid has a smart phone, but they don't pay their book fees and are on free lunch. However, they do have new Nike shoes, 9 year old girls getting their nails done every week, they spend 100s on tumbling and gymnastics.

So what do you do, throw an extra $25,000 or $50,000 a year at these folks so they can make two trips a year to Disney instead on one? Give them money so they can upgrade their phones and iPads? Or now maybe that family that only makes $30,000 a year can go ahead and have that 4th and 5th kid they've been wanting since they have extra cash.


Are you building your case by using the example of $20,000 income and its spending power in the US and comparing it to where it stands in the world? Come on.

Although I share your sentiment that society has come to accept certain luxuries (cable, cell phones, electronics, etc.) as necessities in today's world, you really don't think that living comfortably on an income of $20,000 dollars in this country is a matter of prudent financial choices do you? An income of $20,000 is equivalent to a bring home of around $1300-$1400 per month. Assuming housing/rent ($600) and car ($300)... this leaves you $400 to $500 per month to buy food, pay utilities, gasoline, clothing, emergencies, etc. You don't really believe that people who struggle do so just because they make poor choices do you? None of that covers the issue of the cost of healthcare either, because a person making that income is likely not receiving benefits from their employer.

And if you really think that UBI as presented is going to be a guaranteed lifestyle of luxury and Disney trips you don't have a grasp on the concept. This is from an article in the conservative National Review by a conservative writer who is leaning toward believing that UBI might be a good thing...


  • First, restructuring the welfare state bureaucracy to give everyone the same entitlement would almost certainly not give people enough money to shirk work. It would avoid people starving on the streets, but it wouldn’t enable them to do much more. The truly indolent would not be able to “benefit shop” to collect the levels of income that really annoy people (see the UK’s Benefits Street for a great example of how this is a western world problem). Anyone who wants some creature comforts, which most of poor do (see The Road to Wigan Pier, for example) would be encouraged to work rather than the reverse.
  • Secondly, the evidence I’ve seen from unconditional cash transfer payments suggests that the worries about them being squandered are not realized. Most people will use money to make their lives better. Indeed, there is some evidence that most poor people suddenly presented with what amounts to capital will become capitalists. This is surely a good thing.



This doesn't really have anything to do with UBI, but I think one of the biggest reasons I've gone from an ultra conservative person (I was a Limbaugh listening, Fox News watching conservative) to one who makes a concerted effort to filter politics from issues is the constant need for ideologues to express outrage. It's like they go through life looking for reasons to be p***ed off at people that don't approach the world the same as they do.

As much as we like to think our accomplishments are special and our success a byproduct of our worldview, that isn't always the case. Studies show that college graduates from affluent families are much likelier to enjoy higher income than their middle class counterparts with college degrees.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/soci...-degree-is-worth-less-if-you-are-raised-poor/



It isn't always about prudent choices and hard work. It helps and certainly increases your chances in life, but it doesn't negate the fact that the majority of people born into wealth will remain wealthy and the majority of people born into poverty will remain poor. As much as we want to believe any success we glean out of life is on the backs of our amazing work ethics and prudent choices, evidence suggests that the situation we're born into plays the largest role.
 
Everyone gets UBI and the amount is the same without regard to income.

So what's the catch? The money has to come from somewhere. If it's funded via higher taxes (it would be) that would ultimately decrease my earning power (it would) and penalize me for "bettering" myself (yep) then it's probably not a fair system.

I'd have to see the math. If I get $20k a year in UBI benefits and my taxes increase by $15k then it's worth it. However, if it's a net loss then I'm out. Working in healthcare I see plenty of abuse of the greater good by people everyday and I've become pretty jaded to the cause of some of these "less fortunate" individuals.
 
Just like every other socialist utopian experiment throughout history....it will cost more than predicted, while the outcomes that are promised will be a bust.
Yet another program that will be celebrated as a good feeling attempt to "help" while the reasons for the failed results will be ignored. Continuing the cycle to create some "new" social program that will "fix" society....again.
 
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