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Why are Marshall fans entitled?

BleedsGreen33

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Jan 25, 2010
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In recent years we have seen a push back or tempering of expectations from Mike Hamrick, Doug Smock, mods on this board, and on others. We’re being told we shouldn’t expect to dominate CUSA. We shouldn’t have the bar set to championship or failure every season. We should realize that Marshall is doing what it can with what it has. In other words we should be happy with Beef O’ Brady bowls and 7-9 wins seasons with no hardware. It’s just not realistic.



So why do our fans behave like this. I’ll admit it. I’m one of them. While I can take a down or fluke type season. I hate them, but it happens. I can take a rebuilding season. Though we have had too many. That being said I like most of this fan base expect to at the very least be playing for the conference title at season’s end. I am not in the group that demands an Access Bowl every year as I realize that takes too many factors out of our control in order to do that year in and year out. However we should be one of the teams in that discussion. We should be winning the East more consistently and more often than not hoisting the CUSA Championship Trophy.



So am I just a fool in this belief? Am I entitled. Are fans like myself entitled. I don’t think so. Even if we are entitled there is a good reason for it.



First off the University and Athletic Dept has been selling the football program to fans, recruits, and players based on the motto, “We Play for Championships.” Not just going to bowls. Winning titles. That is the reason we play. We didn’t coin that motto. The Athletic Dept did. Heck Kroger used to have a banner hung on their store celebrating it.



Alright so it’s a motto. Lot’s of schools aspire and several expect to be conference champs. Well that’s true. However Marshall fans have been accustomed to winning. This isn’t wishful or even myopic thinking on our part. I know most of you know our history, but let’s check it out anyways.





From 1991 to 1996 Marshall played in 5 National Championship games (91,92,93,95,96) winning two (92,96).



From 1994 to 2002 Marshall won seven conference titles (SoCon 94,96 MAC 96,97,98,99,00,02) and played for another (Lost to Toledo in 01).



So in a 11 year span, in not so recent memory, Marshall won or played for a championship 12 out of those 12 seasons. In those years we didn’t win the SoCon we finished 2nd.



Over that 12 season span Marshall posted these records.



1991: 11-4

1992: 12-3

1993: 11-4

1994: 12-2

1995: 12-3

1996: 15-0

1997: 10-3

1998: 12-1

1999: 13-0

2000: 8-5

2001: 11-2

2002: 11-2



So 11 out of 12 seasons we posted 10 or more wins. For a record of 138-29 (.826)



So I guess that is why we are spoiled. In that time frame we were once ranked 10th FBS team in the nation. We also posted two other top25 rankings of 21st and 24th.



So what happened? Where did it come apart? Was our schedule just easier back then? We keep hearing how today’s CUSA is better than we think. Is it? Was the MAC opposition really not that great.



Here is the combined records of MAC teams we faced from 1997 to 2004 vs the CUSA teams we’ve played from 2013-2017. The reason I am using this time sample of CUSA is because that is where we are today. This is the CUSA iteration we’re being told is just as good if not better than the MAC. I think we all can agree if this were the CUSA we entered the league in or even Doc’s first couple of seasons of course it was stronger. However is today’s CUSA better?



From 1997-2004 the MAC teams we faced on our schedule were a combined 353-459 (.440) . If you look at just the championship seasons of 1997-2002 our faced opponents winning% is 274-339 (.447). Either sample you use the MAC teams appearing on our schedule were sub .500. Not really surprising.



Out of the 70 teams we faced only four finished the season with 10+ wins.

13 times we faced a team that finished with 8+ wins

31 of our opponents finished .500 or better at season’s end.

30 of those 31 were at least one game over .500.

We faced a ranked conference team one time. That was Little Miami who was #23 at the time and finished #12 in the Coaches and #10 in the AP.



Each season breaks down as follows.

1997: 44-56 (.440)

1998: 41-59 (.410)

1999: 44-57 (.436)

2000: 52-49 (.515)

2001: 48-53 (.475)

2002: 45-65 (.409)

2003: 44-54 (.449)

2004: 35-56 (.385)



From 2013-2017 the CUSA teams that we faced finished with a combined record of 249-279 (.472).



Of the 42 teams that we faced only six finished the season with 10+ wins

14 times we faced a team that finished with 8+ wins

23 of our opponents finished .500 or better at season’s end. 19 of those 23 finished over .500.

Not once did face a team that was ranked or finished ranked.



Each season breaks down as follows.

2013: 48-64 (.472)

2014: 53-59 (.473)

2015: 44-57 (.436)

2016: 52-50 (.510)

2017: 52-49 (.515)





So you compare the conferences and the argument could be made that they are comparable. Depending on which stat you look at either conference could be looked at as better, but only by the slightest of margins. I will say this. CUSA does appear to be trending up as the last two seasons our opponent’s winning% has been +.500 where that only happened once in the MAC (2000). Could that be a trend or is it the luck of the draw.



Now yes you could say this is a meaningless way to look at it because it doesn’t consider each conference on the totality of its teams. However that is not the point of this conversation or really the one that has been going on for the last several years. We didn’t play every team in conference. The questions has been who had the easiest road to win a title. The argument being made is that we’ve played better competition than we want to believe and out expectations should be tempered as a result. Fact is that isn’t true. The schedule faced as been comparable. One could make the argument that Doc has had the more talented roster to work with than Pruett did. Which is not a plus for Doc. It’s and indictment. Doc is brining in guys like JaQuan Yulee and has guys like AJ Leggett. Now Pruett did have Randy Moss, but only for one season of MAC play. Maybe Pruett was the better coach and developer of talent.



So why should we temper our expectations? CUSA is not better than the MAC. Not to the extent that we should no longer hold true to the standard of “We Play for Championships”. Our fans have good reason to hold this program to the standard they do. It was preached to us for nearly 20 years and the results overwhelmingly back it up. Then we look at 2013-2014. We’re 23-4 in that two year span with two title game appearances, a conference championship two bowl wins, and finished 2014 ranked #22 in the coaches and #23 in the AP with one win away from the Access Bowl. Now four seasons later we haven’t finished better than 3rd in our division.



Has the competition gotten better or has the leadership at Marshall declined? Is excellence no longer being demanded? Have we gone from being a flag bearer of the G5 to just happy to have a team, make a bowl, and hopefully peak every five seasons or so? I know some will say well we went from 2005-2012 being a terrible to at best average team. While that is true we were not being told to temper our expectations. Remember our AD going on TV holding up all the All-Time great football coaches that started out with terrible records trying to convince everyone to be patient with Snyder. Trying to draw parallels between Snyder and the likes of Lou Holtz, Frank Beamer, and I even think Tom Landry was on that list.



I don’t think it’s the fans that need to change their tune.
 
I don't feel entitled. I like a winner. Everybody likes a winner unless you are odd and not set in your American ways. Americans like a winner.

There is no arrogance or spoiled entitlement, but we want entertainment, excitement, and trophies. That is no different than any sports fan.

My lands, we have one title is what 16 years or so(I've lost track). That should be unacceptable to a team that dominated in the 90's and I believe won 5 conference titles in a row.

What are they trying to temper? We haven't won jack squat.

That's ridiculous. They are saying that because they are not performing at the level Marshall is capable of.
 
I don't feel entitled. I like a winner. Everybody likes a winner unless you are odd and not set in your American ways. Americans like a winner.

There is no arrogance or spoiled entitlement, but we want entertainment, excitement, and trophies. That is no different than any sports fan.

My lands, we have one title is what 16 years or so(I've lost track). That should be unacceptable to a team that dominated in the 90's and I believe won 5 conference titles in a row.

What are they trying to temper? We haven't won jack squat.

That's ridiculous. They are saying that because they are not performing at the level Marshall is capable of.

Agreed.
 
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I won't say I'm entitled, but I will say I'm a realist... Marshall had one of the great runs ever in terms of winning football games on their respective level from 1991-2002. I think all of us appreciate that era and we all remember it fondly.

That said, an era like that is going to end at some point. Sports is a cyclical business and it doesn't matter who you are. Alabama is the best football team on the planet in college terms right now and has been for a decade, but do you remember how they were going along before that? They were awful from 1998-2007 (with the exception of 1999).

Over the past 15 years we have had teams that have lived up to my expectations and others that did not. The unfortunate thing is that the underachieving teams are beginning to stack up.

As a college or high school football fan, it's important to take each season and judge it on its own merit. Kids graduate, transfer, coaching changes are made, etc. so going in every year with the mindset that we have to play for a CUSA title or the year is a failure is misguided. That said, last season was disappointing and this season looks like its headed that way as well.
 
Well, there's the "woe is me" fan, who goes around saying things like, "goersh fellas, when you think about it, we should consider ourselves lucky Marshall even has a team..." They also like to go on about how Doc doesn't make much money, and, as a program, how we can barely afford to buy cleats for our players to wear.

Then there's the fans who do not see Marshall as some poverty-stricken, destitute program. Also, they see CUSA as a crap conference, chock full of teams with fewer resources than Marshall, and so they hold the expectation for Marshall to at least be in the running for a conference title every few years.

If people want to hold Marshall to such low expectations, that's fine, but please get out of the way, and do not try to convince others to accept your contentment with mediocrity.
 
Frankly, I think we had better players and better coaches back in the day. We recruit athletes now and not football players. Our kids don’t seem to play with a chip on their shoulder like players past. They love to watch themselves on the scoreboard and celebrate even the most basic of plays.
I like Doc but I don’t think he is a good X’s and O’s guy. His career was built on recruiting, not coaching.

Our fans are no different than any other fan base who have seen success and then watched it fade.

Are we spoiled, maybe so from the past success, but I don’t think as a whole, we are unreasonable either.

I don’t expect titles every year and I sure as hell don’t expect the Access at any point. But I expect better than what we have seen in 16, 17 and so far, this year.
 
Well it depends how you view the 11 year period. Was it the norm or was it an aberration. Thru the prism of history it was an aberration, in 50 years hopefully it will be seen as the beginning of the norm.
 
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Our kids don’t seem to play with a chip on their shoulder like players past. They love to watch themselves on the scoreboard and celebrate even the most basic of plays.

Sadly this is a larger portion of today's player. Did you see where Clemson(I think) had abQB transfer because his feelings where hurt. Joey Galloway on ESPN defending him for it to.

Gone are the days of getting your facemask grabbed by your coach. Today we have to hug everyone and tell them how great they are no matter what.

Now we give them a jersey and put them up on the jumbotron when they are in for a visit.

We play to the egos of 18-22 year olds now. They dictate the atmosphere and it leaves little chance to mature.
 
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Sadly this is a larger portion of today's player. Did you see where Clemson(I think) had abQB transfer because his feelings where hurt. Joey Galloway on ESPN defending him for it to.

Gone are the days of getting your facemask grabbed by your coach. Today we have to hug everyone and tell them how great they are no matter what.

Now we give them a jersey and put them up on the jumbotron when they are in for a visit.

We play to the egos of 18-22 year olds now. They dictate the atmosphere and it leaves little chance to mature.
I would have been pissed too if I was Kelly Bryant. He was a returning starter that played very well in 2017 and lead his team to the national playoffs after waiting his turn behind Deshaun Watson. It wasn't as if he played bad to start the season either, and Lawrence could have waited his turn by redshirting in 2018. Hell, it is debatable whether Lawrence even outplayed him . My guess is the Clemson coaches were afraid they were going to lose Lawrence, they probably made promises to him, and were willing to sacrifice a guy who would be done at season's end for the guy that will be around for the next 3 years.
 
One reason the CUSA teams have a better record than the MAC teams is that we aren't handing out loses to them like we used to. We basically went 8-0 or 7-1 every year in conference, now we go 4-4. So if you drop those records by taking 3-4 out of the win column and increasing the loss column, not a lot different.
 
One reason the CUSA teams have a better record than the MAC teams is that we aren't handing out loses to them like we used to. We basically went 8-0 or 7-1 every year in conference, now we go 4-4. So if you drop those records by taking 3-4 out of the win column and increasing the loss column, not a lot different.

That's true.

I don't know. Maybe the number of bowls have made coaches and administrators complacent. If you go back to our early MAC days you only went bowling if you won the MAC. I'm not advocating for that, but maybe just the top 2 or even 3 teams go. Now you can lose as many games as you win and get post season play. We've even seen teams with losing records make a bowl.

There's no real urgency. You can sell the bowl game as proof you're building when in reality that's not the case.

I just don't get a since of urgency from Doc. Go back to the years prior to 2014. He was never happy about anything. He was harder on his players and position groups. Even going as far as to say a certain a position group makes him sick.

Now he heaps praise on this position group or that one.

I think the fire is gone. Complacency has set in.

Marshall should never lose to Charlotte or even be in a close game with them. Look at the last three games.

Marshall should be the flag bearer for CUSA year in and year out. Not an also ran.

The more I think about it the more this whole situation is just unacceptable.
 
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Here is my 2 cents on the subject Bleeds. From 91-96 we were certainly on a roll. We were a huge fish in a small pond (FCS).We were the program to beat for sure. When we made the leap from FCS to FBS we were well situated to succeed at the next level. Donnan had done an incredible job of bringing in talent. When you consider he took 3 of our players with him and 2 started and went on to play in the NFL that says a lot. BP rolls into town and with him Randy Moss. From 97 -2002 we continued our success but all was not well. The NCAA investigation did us no favors. I am of the view that this event really hurt our program more than many will ever care to acknowledge. The reduction in schollys etc took the wind out of our sails. Other MAC schools caught up some and closed the gap. By the time MS took over we were on the ropes. Some might argue that our success was predicated on the very things that got us in trouble with the NCAA. Can we do it again? I hope so. I doubt we can get there with Doc running the show. Can we do it without bending the rules? We better or next time we will be roasted by the NCAA.
 
Here is my 2 cents on the subject Bleeds. From 91-96 we were certainly on a roll. We were a huge fish in a small pond (FCS).We were the program to beat for sure. When we made the leap from FCS to FBS we were well situated to succeed at the next level. Donnan had done an incredible job of bringing in talent. When you consider he took 3 of our players with him and 2 started and went on to play in the NFL that says a lot. BP rolls into town and with him Randy Moss. From 97 -2002 we continued our success but all was not well. The NCAA investigation did us no favors. I am of the view that this event really hurt our program more than many will ever care to acknowledge. The reduction in schollys etc took the wind out of our sails. Other MAC schools caught up some and closed the gap. By the time MS took over we were on the ropes. Some might argue that our success was predicated on the very things that got us in trouble with the NCAA. Can we do it again? I hope so. I doubt we can get there with Doc running the show. Can we do it without bending the rules? We better or next time we will be roasted by the NCAA.

All good points
 
I think the success we enjoyed was due to a "perfect storm" of events. We were lucky to have quality coaches in Donnan and Pruett, players such as CP, BL,Moss, Doug Chapman, etc. Then, the perfect storm turned the other way. Snyder set the program back a good 10 years and with Marcum in the AD seat didn't help things either. Not since the BP years have we fielded teams with the killer instinct the finish off opponents week in and week out. I'm not sure what the answer to return to success is, but even tho Doc is doing "OK", I don't think he's the answer.
 
I think the success we enjoyed was due to a "perfect storm" of events. We were lucky to have quality coaches in Donnan and Pruett, players such as CP, BL,Moss, Doug Chapman, etc. Then, the perfect storm turned the other way. Snyder set the program back a good 10 years and with Marcum in the AD seat didn't help things either. Not since the BP years have we fielded teams with the killer instinct the finish off opponents week in and week out. I'm not sure what the answer to return to success is, but even tho Doc is doing "OK", I don't think he's the answer.

Snyder did not set back the program 10 years, Bob did by bringing the NCAA onto campus. Mark recruited much better players (look at NFL players if nothing else) then Doc,he just didnt have a good coaching staff plus was playing with one hand tied behind his back because of the sanctions. Look, I think very highly of Bob but he started this slide not Snyder. Then you replace him with Doc who from day 1 didnt seem to know how to coach just recruit. He surrounded himself with a few talented guys (coaches) over the years (Phil and JaJuan come to mind) but mainly "yes" men to help his ego. He brought guys onto campus that while were "ranked" highly in the eyes of Scout or Rivals or ESPN, were here for one reason most times-they couldnt get accepted into their top options for one of many reasons on quite a few ocassions (not all). These kids then did their thing and got kicked off or kicked out. That then caused a lost scholly that could have gone to someone who will be here 4/5 years and could help the culture. I dont know the stats but I would easily say Doc has had 15-20 kids come and go for many, many reasons (not always Doc to be fair).

If you want to make Marshall a championship program again, take a page from teams such as the Patriots, Steelers (makes me puke for saying it) or even teams like Green Bay. They build a roster of compatible players who play for each other and the name on the front of the uniform not the back. This wont be easy and wont be fast but anyone please answer me this-would you rather have a team that is sound and competitive (a strong chance for a title most years) and one that you as a fan or alum can easily cheer for or one that plays or is built like the current version of Herd football where many fans feel like "outsiders" and you have the same small fan base constantly arguing with each other about how bad they are or how its not Doc's fault?
 
Doc,he just didnt have a good coaching staff plus was playing with one hand tied behind his back because of the sanctions

I don't recall the specifics, but I was almost certain the sanctions had ended well before Snyder was given the boot.
 
Yeah, and a lot of the lethargic staleness that I currently feel in our program, I also felt in Pruett's last few years.


No question BP had it on cruise control his last two years. Maybe Marshall shouldn't have a coach stay longer than 5-6 years. Maybe everyone gets too comfy, things become stale, the fire goes out. That's what seems to be happening now. jmo.
 
Yeah, and a lot of the lethargic staleness that I currently feel in our program, I also felt in Pruett's last few years.

I agree on that point. There were alot of things working against the program at that time.
 
I agree on that point. There were alot of things working against the program at that time.
If you go back and look you will also see that at least 2 of the classes of recruits ( I think 2002/03) both went belly up. Smock wrote a great article on this several years ago and explained it well. Of course this point has been debated before. BP certainly left some talented players behind like Bradshaw and Legursky and Albert Mcllean for example. The difference in 2005 was we had no depth. The sanctions were over by 2005 but we had not closed the gap by the time BP left. Add to that we left the MAC which MS coaching philosophy was well suited for and entered C_USA which in 2005 was polar opposite of the MAC, A perfect storm for us to struggle. Finally, in that era of Herd football we played some of our hardest OOC games ever. Most years under BP we might play one P5. We did play 2 in 2000 and lost both of them. Several seasons under MS we played 3. I think we can be really good again but it will not be easy.
 
That doesnt mean the roster was full strength given that Bob left in 2005 with a depleted roster

My point in saying that was because we have all heard the sanctions excuse, along with being a really, really, super "young team," for far too long. The sanctions shouldn't have impacted Doc Holliday, but the fact that he inherited a roster full of someone else's players certainly did.

Perhaps I misunderstood your intent behind mentioning the sanctions and Doc in the same sentence.
 
A segment of this fan base has advanced CUSA hate which has caused a severe case of football anhedonia. Nothing that MU accomplishes is ever going to make them happy, because they have so little regard for our conference mates that they expect to win every game every year.

Reality:

- MU's rise from the plane crash and, we forget, playing through the end of the 80s in a sewer stadium in the hood, with no money and a hostile state government, remains one of the great stories of college sports.

- During out late SoCon years, we were just plain bigger time than the league we were playing in and in fact 90% of the entire division.. More resources. We were ready for what is now called G5 long before we made the jump.

- And during our whole tremendous era in I-AA, nobody, but nobody, except for the jealous Spamies, pointed out that this was I-AA.

- The MAC in the era just before we got there was C R A P . They were I-A only because they had sued the NCAA to be I-A. There was no "G5 and P5" back then. There was the Big Boys, then what became the Big East a step below that, and then a HUGE GAP, and the MAC and the Big West. The conference champion, and only the conference champion, played Fresno State in a ginned up bowl, at eternal Big West champ Fresno State that paid 1/5th of the next lowest bowl and was played 10 days before all the real bowls. It was small time. Future phys ed teachers of Ohio vs. future phys ed teachers of Michigan. CRAP. MU, recruiting the south, and ON TV in an era when that was not a given, boat raced the whole bunch. We were just bigger time than the MAC.

- We took the MAC as far as we could. What the MAC is today is our doing. That the MAC exists today is really our doing. We needed to move up and CUSA 2.0 was what was there.

- And during this whole era, nobody, but nobody, except for the jealous Spamies, pointed out that this was the MAC.

- And then came Marcum and Snyder and they destroyed the program. Had a thread on that, no need to rehash.

- We were thus unprepared for what came next. The world changed. EVERY GAME is on TV. ESPN, and its immitators, want content. EVERY TEAM that goes 6-6 goes to a pointless bowl. The Big Boys padded their leagues with bottom feeders, and a "G5" of smaller programs developed.

- We ended up in CUSA 3.0, because of what Marcum/Snyder did to this program. We were down at the exact wrong time. And a certain segment of this fan base just cannot accept that CUSA 3.0 is what it is.

- The mind control agents at ESPN pump a passion play about its pets THE AMERICAN!!!!!!!!! and Boise State. Some in this fan base buy into it.

The solution? Pretty simple. GET OVER YOURSELVES.

Marshall is in CUSA. Until the world changes again, this is Marshall sports:

- Marshall is in a G5 league. All 5 leagues are about the same, no matter what ESPN tells you.

- 13-0 in any G5 league equals an "access bowl" which will be the 3rd or 4th best team in the SEC or such like. That is all that will ever happen.

- ANY OTHER RECORD equals a ginned up ESPN owned named for an obscure product pre-Christmas bowl, against in 7 out of 8 cases another G5 team. The remaining case will be versus a 6-6 9th place Big 10 team in a rotten 1930s era abandoned stadium in a not tropical northern Texas.

- In basketball, no matter the year, no matter the hype, no matter what, the ONLY way to the NCAAs is to "get hot in the tournament and who knows". This has worked once in 30 years.

- In other sports, we put forth generally a nominal effort.

- The teams we play are the teams we play.

That is what being a Marshall fan is. You cheer for the football team. If you cannot be happy that we "just" beat some CUSA 3.0 team, then this is NOT FOR YOU. Go to K-Mart before it closes for good and grab you some blue and yeller (or red and grey or blue and white or whatever) and enjoy.

GO HERD.
 
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A segment of this fan base has advanced CUSA hate which has caused a severe case of football anhedonia. Nothing that MU accomplishes is ever going to make them happy, because they have so little regard for our conference mates that they expect to win every game every year.

Reality:

- MU's rise from the plane crash and, we forget, playing through the end of the 80s in a sewer stadium in the hood, with no money and a hostile state government, remains one of the great stories of college sports.

- During out late SoCon years, we were just plain bigger time than the league we were playing in and in fact 90% of the entire division.. More resources. We were ready for what is now called G5 long before we made the jump.

- And during our whole tremendous era in I-AA, nobody, but nobody, except for the jealous Spamies, pointed out that this was I-AA.

- The MAC in the era just before we got there was C R A P . They were I-A only because they had sued the NCAA to be I-A. There was no "G5 and P5" back then. There was the Big Boys, then what became the Big East a step below that, and then a HUGE GAP, and the MAC and the Big West. The conference champion, and only the conference champion, played Fresno State in a ginned up bowl, at eternal Big West champ Fresno State that paid 1/5th of the next lowest bowl and was played 10 days before all the real bowls. It was small time. Future phys ed teachers of Ohio vs. future phys ed teachers of Michigan. CRAP. MU, recruiting the south, and ON TV in an era when that was not a given, boat raced the whole bunch. We were just bigger time than the MAC.

- We took the MAC as far as we could. What the MAC is today is our doing. That the MAC exists today is really our doing. We needed to move up and CUSA 2.0 was what was there.

- And during this whole era, nobody, but nobody, except for the jealous Spamies, pointed out that this was the MAC.

- And then came Marcum and Snyder and they destroyed the program. Had a thread on that, no need to rehash.

- We were thus unprepared for what came next. The world changed. EVERY GAME is on TV. ESPN, and its immitators, want content. EVERY TEAM that goes 6-6 goes to a pointless bowl. The Big Boys padded their leagues with bottom feeders, and a "G5" of smaller programs developed.

- We ended up in CUSA 3.0, because of what Marcum/Snyder did to this program. We were down at the exact wrong time. And a certain segment of this fan base just cannot accept that CUSA 3.0 is what it is.

- The mind control agents at ESPN pump a passion play about its pets THE AMERICAN!!!!!!!!! and Boise State. Some in this fan base buy into it.

The solution? Pretty simple. GET OVER YOURSELVES.

Marshall is in CUSA. Until the world changes again, this is Marshall sports:

- Marshall is in a G5 league. All 5 leagues are about the same, no matter what ESPN tells you.

- 13-0 in any G5 league equals an "access bowl" which will be the 3rd or 4th best team in the SEC or such like. That is all that will ever happen.

- ANY OTHER RECORD equals a ginned up ESPN owned named for an obscure product pre-Christmas bowl, against in 7 out of 8 cases another G5 team. The remaining case will be versus a 6-6 9th place Big 10 team in a rotten 1930s era abandoned stadium in a not tropical northern Texas.

- In basketball, no matter the year, no matter the hype, no matter what, the ONLY way to the NCAAs is to "get hot in the tournament and who knows". This has worked once in 30 years.

- In other sports, we put forth generally a nominal effort.

- The teams we play are the teams we play.

That is what being a Marshall fan is. You cheer for the football team. If you cannot be happy that we "just" beat some CUSA 3.0 team, then this is NOT FOR YOU. Go to K-Mart before it closes for good and grab you some blue and yeller (or red and grey or blue and white or whatever) and enjoy.

GO HERD.

I think I get the overall point to your post. I am sure ESPN plays a part in the shaping of some of our fans' attitudes. However we have two starts ups in UTSA and UNCC, we have another program that isn't or may just barely be 10 years old in ODU, FIU I believe is fairly young as a program, and several of our conference mates have just never been anything special. So there isn't going to be any luster on the conference.


I am not sure what you mean by be happy that we "just" beat some CUSA 3.0 team. The issue we aren't beating them enough. For arguments sake let's just look at 2013 forward. We'll for the sake of debate give Doc a pass for rebuilding after the santions/Snyder/Marcum. Since winning the conference in 2014 this team has continued to fall short of its goals. Allegedly the talent is there. I mean this season was being hyped by everyone as the year and for all intents and purposes we lost the division and the chance of playing for the championship in Week two of the conference slate.

I can tell you what. If you think apathy is there now. Let Doc and this team not show up again tomorrow night. ODU is 1-5 and is -10 in their scoring margin. They have yet to hold a team under 28 points. Outside of a fluke win over VT this team is terrible.
 
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This is all you needed to type.

I will never understand the belief that in order to be a true fan you have to accept losing.

You can still be a fan and be critical. In my opinion you should want to see improvement.

I really haven't seen anyone say they were no longer going to be a Marshall fan. We're all still here discussing Marshall and debating. If we had no passion left for Marshall we'd not be here and we wouldn't watch the games.
 
Snyder did not set back the program 10 years, Bob did by bringing the NCAA onto campus. Mark recruited much better players (look at NFL players if nothing else) then Doc,he just didnt have a good coaching staff plus was playing with one hand tied behind his back because of the sanctions. Look, I think very highly of Bob but he started this slide not Snyder. Then you replace him with Doc who from day 1 didnt seem to know how to coach just recruit. He surrounded himself with a few talented guys (coaches) over the years (Phil and JaJuan come to mind) but mainly "yes" men to help his ego. He brought guys onto campus that while were "ranked" highly in the eyes of Scout or Rivals or ESPN, were here for one reason most times-they couldnt get accepted into their top options for one of many reasons on quite a few ocassions (not all). These kids then did their thing and got kicked off or kicked out. That then caused a lost scholly that could have gone to someone who will be here 4/5 years and could help the culture. I dont know the stats but I would easily say Doc has had 15-20 kids come and go for many, many reasons (not always Doc to be fair).

If you want to make Marshall a championship program again, take a page from teams such as the Patriots, Steelers (makes me puke for saying it) or even teams like Green Bay. They build a roster of compatible players who play for each other and the name on the front of the uniform not the back. This wont be easy and wont be fast but anyone please answer me this-would you rather have a team that is sound and competitive (a strong chance for a title most years) and one that you as a fan or alum can easily cheer for or one that plays or is built like the current version of Herd football where many fans feel like "outsiders" and you have the same small fan base constantly arguing with each other about how bad they are or how its not Doc's fault?
I agree with some of your points, but in recruiting, Doc has been the better at it. Snyder recruited some players that turned out to be very good, but the depth in his recruiting classes were no where near as good as Doc's. The major issue that has plagued Doc's program has been the lack of good QB recruiting and the attrition issues from the 2012-2015 classes that decimated the talent in the program and lead to the 2016-2017 seasons and have had some impact on the current team. The good news is that we have a good young QB to build around and the attrition rate for the last three classes has been significantly better than that period where Seider and Hartley took too many chances in recruiting. I know, no one cares about next year or the future, but we have a lot of young talent on the roster that could make us very good the next few years if we can get our heads out of our asses. Plus, this season isn't lost, we only have 1 conference loss and could still end up in contention for the division title if we start playing as well as we were expected to this season.
 
You can still be a fan and be critical. In my opinion you should want to see improvement.

Of course you can. This year's team underperformed last week at home, and, IMHO, a loss this week will mean the end of meaningful football this year. I am very disappointed. The best case scenario left for this year's team is "mediocre", the down side is dark indeed.

I am not talking about "accepting losing". What I, and others, are talking about is out fanbase's unique inability to accept WINNING. No matter what Doc, or whoever comes after Doc, does week to week, it will dismissed as "only" (fill in the blank with a CUSA school). Whatever happens in a season is "just" finishing whatever and whatever in CUSA. And then there is the continual butthurt whining about the bowl system and the MAC or whatever team we play.

NOTHING is good enough for the entitled segment of our fan base. They expect to win. And not in the delusional WVU fan "the lapdog media tells us we are great" way, nor the "we really are that good" SEC fan way. No, it is like some in this fanbase EXPECT to win every game because they consider every team we play as some sort of cupcake joke program. NOTHING that we do will ever be good in these people's eyes. It is like your kid getting a good report card and telling him "well that school is a joke anyway."

MU fandom does not require accepting losing. It does, however require something other expecting to assream every other team in the league automatically and considering that to be both expected and unremarkable.
 
We must have the zero policy for losing. Most all great programs have that. At Kentucky if they lose one game in basketball its the end of the world. In Alabama football they lower the flag half mast when they lose. Its not entitlement its having a zero policy of losing in ones soul.
 
- We took the MAC as far as we could. What the MAC is today is our doing. That the MAC exists today is really our doing.


Let me get this straight: an entity that existed 8 years before Marshall ever had anything to do with it; an entity that has existed for over 80 years of which Marshall has only been a part of for about 24 years; an entity that allegedly only exists because of Marshall even though Marshall was kicked out; an entity that has continued to succeed 13 years after Marshall left for the second time . . . only exists today because of Marshall?

My god, Samantha, your comments are so comically stupid and self-serving that a casual reader could only reach the conclusion that you are a really bad satirist.


- The mind control agents at ESPN pump a passion play about its pets THE AMERICAN!!!!!!!!! and Boise State. Some in this fan base buy into it.
.

Your obsession with The American is bizarre. The American and the MWC are far ahead of Conference USA in every measurable performance standard, and it isn't even close.

Brand, attendance, salaries, budgets, facilities, on-field performance, media, rankings . . . those two conferences are a world ahead of Conference USA, and again, it isn't even close these days.

- Marshall is in a G5 league. All 5 leagues are about the same, no matter what ESPN tells you.

No, and it still isn't close regardless of how many time you cry about that.
 
I will never understand the belief that in order to be a true fan you have to accept losing.

You can still be a fan and be critical. In my opinion you should want to see improvement.

I really haven't seen anyone say they were no longer going to be a Marshall fan. We're all still here discussing Marshall and debating. If we had no passion left for Marshall we'd not be here and we wouldn't watch the games.

I agree with all this. This is what annoys me with "fans" like Sam.

His bullshit about "if you don't like it.... go pick up the WVU banner" is absolutely absurd.
 
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I agree with all this. This is what annoys me with "fans" like Sam.

His bullshit about "if you don't like it.... go pick up the WVU banner" is absolutely absurd.


I have a friend like this. If I ever make a comment on how something could be improved he asks me why I'm even a Marshall fan if all I do is criticize.

I celebrate when we achieve things, but there are times you see something that's not working or could be better.

Like our defense. Sure it's been good, but if the DBs played the ball it would be 5x better.

Or the crowd that say, "Maybe you should be the HC since you know better." I don't have to be a chef to know my food is undercooked.

We are much too talented to be in the state we are in and it does not make you a bad fan to be frustrated by it.
 
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....Another excellent thread ruined by Rifle. He just can't help himself, I guess. Great discussion!!

Nothing's ruined, crybaby. We have a poster who routinely, for years, posts false information. When people disagree by using facts, he calls them names and throws tantrums. He has earned the right for people to mock him for continuing to lie in his posts.
 
I have a friend like this. If I ever make a comment on how something could be improved he asks me why I'm even a Marshall fan if all I do is criticize.

I celebrate when we achieve things, but there are times you see something that's not working or could be better.

Like our defense. Sure it's been good, but if the DBs played the ball it would be 5x better.

Or the crowd that say, "Maybe you should be the HC since you know better." I don't have to be a chef to know my food is undercooked.

We are much too talented to be in the state we are in and it does not make you a bad fan to be frustrated by it.

Lately, complaints about wins have equated to real concerns which caused us to lose, as predicted, to opponents with a pulse.

No one wants to see Marshall lose (well, none of the fans who complain). We can recognize issues and call the team out on them. It's the supa fans who pull the wool over their own eyes, refusing to acknowledge anything or even offer constructive criticism. It's maddening.
 
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