Basketball question

[Crush Nasty]

Banners?

ZERO.

LOSER.

Loser at Pikeville.
Loser at Harvey High.
Loser at Marshall..
Went back to Harvey High. Lost there too.



Nope. Reading comprehension not your strong suit? One quote was where I fully debunked your basketball theories, explaining that the MACers are all more or less on the same level in basketball, due to the long stability of the conference, contrasted to CUSA where the basketball teams are all at different levels. The other quote explains fully and totally where the MAC is, and always will be. In football. Kind of I-A and a half. Not quite I-AA, not quite really I-A.

Here’s the irony- the MAC is miles ahead of CUSA in basketball. In football they have severe problems in the bottom half being completely terrible, however they still have national TV spots EVERY WEEK.

The cusa without Memphis and Cincy basically like you talking about the big 2 little 8, only without the two, is basically the MAC without TV exposure in football, and behind them in basketball. I for one like where our basketball program is. And I’m optimistic about football as well. But as far as conferences go.. the CUSA blows goats

 

[Crush Nasty]

Here’s the irony- the MAC is miles ahead of CUSA in basketball. In football they have severe problems in the bottom half being completely terrible, however they still have national TV spots EVERY WEEK.

The cusa without Memphis and Cincy basically like you talking about the big 2 little 8, only without the two, is basically the MAC without TV exposure in football, and behind them in basketball. I for one like where our basketball program is. And I’m optimistic about football as well. But as far as conferences go.. the CUSA blows goats

I do however think WKU and UAB are very solid programs in b-ball. And I have a pipe dream that we will trend the way WKU is and have that rivalry in basketball as well.

 

[5150]

From what I know Doc and Dan got along. Granted they only were together in the spring/summer for the BG coaches tour.
Danny and Hamrick have never gotten along

You may know more then myself and not sure if its true but I heard a growing rivalry was taking place between the two programs. Im sure it had to do with money but also heard other things that was causing conflict to take place.

 

[5150]

Here’s the irony- the MAC is miles ahead of CUSA in basketball. In football they have severe problems in the bottom half being completely terrible, however they still have national TV spots EVERY WEEK.

The cusa without Memphis and Cincy basically like you talking about the big 2 little 8, only without the two, is basically the MAC without TV exposure in football, and behind them in basketball. I for one like where our basketball program is. And I’m optimistic about football as well. But as far as conferences go.. the CUSA blows goats

The MAC TV contract is much better then CUSA from what Im told

 

[KyMUfan]

I do however think WKU and UAB are very solid programs in b-ball. And I have a pipe dream that we will trend the way WKU is and have that rivalry in basketball as well.

In terms of geography WKU is about our only natural rival in CUSA., plus we have played them in title games in both sports so I definitely understand where you are coming from.

 

[KyMUfan]

The MAC TV contract is much better then CUSA from what Im told

They just have to play night games during the middle of the week to have it.

 

[Chris McLaughlin]

Here’s the irony- the MAC is miles ahead of CUSA in basketball.

It is?

Right now CUSA’s RPI is 13 and the MAC’s is 17.

In 2020 it was basically reversed with the MAC at 12 and CUSA at 17.

In 2019 CUSA finished 11th and the MAC was 23rd.

 

[Crush Nasty]

They just have to play night games during the middle of the week to have it.

Its very much worth it. Think about recruits that have only those games to watch on a Wednesday night vs not even knowing who UTEP is.

 

[Crush Nasty]

It is?

Right now CUSA’s RPI is 13 and the MAC’s is 17.

In 2020 it was basically reversed with the MAC at 12 and CUSA at 17.

In 2019 CUSA finished 11th and the MAC was 23rd.

I guess I’m looking at it historically of the teams who are still there. I think the top of cusa is better than the MAC this year, but historically the 5 or 6 best Mac programs are better than the 5 or 6 best remaining cusa programs

 

[Chris McLaughlin]

I guess I’m looking at it historically of the teams who are still there. I think the top of cusa is better than the MAC this year, but historically the 5 or 6 best Mac programs are better than the 5 or 6 best remaining cusa programs

Are they? Who in the MAC has a better history than schools like UTEP, Charlotte, WKU, UAB and ODU?

 

[Chris McLaughlin]

The MAC TV contract is much better then CUSA from what Im told

The MAC gets to play on ESPN but the financials compared to CUSA are a wash. They have to pay a ton of production costs out of pocket for those Tuesday night games.

 

[trailherd]

Historically, the top of CUSA has been far more successful than the top of the MAC.

I guess I’m looking at it historically of the teams who are still there. I think the top of cusa is better than the MAC this year, but historically the 5 or 6 best Mac programs are better than the 5 or 6 best remaining cusa programs

CUSA teams have an all time NCAA tournament record of 65-116 (36% win pct.), while the MAC is 32-78 (29% win pct.).

So CUSA has had more NCAA tournament appearances (by a lot), more tournament wins (by a lot), and a higher winning percentage. How could your statement be anywhere near true?

 

[KyMUfan]

The MAC gets to play on ESPN but the financials compared to CUSA are a wash. They have to pay a ton of production costs out of pocket for those Tuesday night games.

That is interesting about the production costs.

I know the information is probably out there but thought you might already have it. Do you know the TV revenues by conference for both sports? Thanks.

 

[trailherd]

Incidentally, the top 5 in each conference are CUSA: 53-79, MAC: 23-50

 

[KyMUfan]

Historically, the top of CUSA has been far more successful than the top of the MAC.

CUSA teams have an all time NCAA tournament record of 65-116 (36% win pct.), while the MAC is 32-78 (29% win pct.).

So CUSA has had more NCAA tournament appearances (by a lot), more tournament wins (by a lot), and a higher winning percentage. How could your statement be anywhere near true?

Crush Nasty is referring to the schools that are currently in CUSA. CUSA no longer has Louisville, Memphis, Marquette, etc. that resulted in 4 or 6 teams going to the NCAA as in the early 2000s. CUSA is not the same basketball conference now that it was then.

 

[KyMUfan]

So going back the last five season's MU's record against the MAC to the best of my knowledge is

0-2
2-1
3-0
1-2
0-3

We didn't necessarily light up the MAC when we were in it and have had a losing record against it over the last 5 seasons.

 

[trailherd]

Crush Nasty is referring to the schools that are currently in CUSA. CUSA no longer has Louisville, Memphis, Marquette, etc. that resulted in 4 or 6 teams going to the NCAA as in the early 2000s. CUSA is not the same basketball conference now that it was then.

That is the records of the current teams in the conference.

 

[KyMUfan]

That is the records of the current teams in the conference.

Records for what? NCAA Tournament records?

 

[Crush Nasty]

Historically, the top of CUSA has been far more successful than the top of the MAC.

CUSA teams have an all time NCAA tournament record of 65-116 (36% win pct.), while the MAC is 32-78 (29% win pct.).

So CUSA has had more NCAA tournament appearances (by a lot), more tournament wins (by a lot), and a higher winning percentage. How could your statement be anywhere near true?

current CUSA teams? Or does that include Memphis and Cincinnati and Ville and the teams that were actually good?

 

[muthed]

Thank you for the ancient history lesson.



And the basketball coach was a MU alumni and ex-player, with no particular HC background at the DI level, from Wyoming County's Mullens HS, who was a dynamic public speaker?



Well no. One because the idiot, KO Marcum hired an incompetent as compliance director, lied to the fan base, and lied to the greatest coach we ever had who had to leave as a matter of honor, who was then replaced by another incompetent KO crony, taking 5 years to fire a guy who obviously was over his head after 5 games.

With all that had been built destroyed, the next coach had to start from zero. And, with CUSA being light years ahead of the lowly MAC, which was and remains a sort of I-A and a half league, nothing you say is logical.



No, because the MAC is a long term stable, geographically logical conference made up of schools that are all on basically the same page in every sport. While CUSA, this version (please no more ancient history about UC or Memphis), was 100% made for football. Every other sport was brought along, all at various levels. A third simply do not care if the basketball team is playing or not. Another third have no fanbases. Which should equal AUTOMATIC wins, every time, every year. Leaving this sorry league wide open to be settled among the remaining third. There is no reason, with all the de facto bye weeks this league provides, our best in the league basketball fan base (by far) and our level of commitment to the sport, we should not grab it by the throat.

According to all of your illogical ramblings about the MAC and CUSA, I believe you have given the MAC a higher rating than you meant to. If they are so inferior they would not be rated at 1-A and a half. That would make them better than a 1-A. A truer rating according to your reckoning would be 1-A minus.

 

[The Real SamC]

TV: The MAC's deal was signed in 2014. While that may not seem like all that long ago, in TV business land, it was a different world. "Everyone" had either cable or dish. And, thus "everyone" paid, and paid a whole lot, for all these sports channels. Today, while streaming means extra games on things like ESPN+ to the sports fan, to the MAJORITY of homes that contain NO ONE who is really interested in sports, it means that there are plenty of ways to get TV, both linear content and/or on-demand content, without paying one cent for sports. This means that TV contracts for sports are a huge dead weight for companies like Disney.

Meanwhile the CUSA contract is a product of the current era, signed in 2018, and reflective of the current situation.

The MAC contract will expire, finally, after the 26-27 sports seasons. There is no reason to believe that any company is interested in renewal at anything near what they are now paying. Which, since the MACers have driven away what fans they had with weeknight games, leaves those schools with a big budget hole and thus a huge decision to make.

 

[GoHerdMarshallYes]

That's a bit of a stretch. Coach Dan has brought an exciting brand of basketball back to the Cam, has fielded competitive teams that generally improve as the season progresses, which I think is a sign of a good coach, has a solid rapport with the media and fans, went to the NCAA for the first time in 30 years plus won the first tournament game ever. I don't think he lost control of his players either. Not so sure you can say that obout the other.

Dan negated the 30 year drought in 4 years...since then he has done exactly nothing.

Its also easier to manage a roster of what, 17 players than a full 100? I get your point but come on.
I'm sure Dan's brand of basketball is exciting, for the opposing fans, since he blows leads.
I guess being a friend of the media gets you a pass for being average in terms of coaching and winning. Makes no sense a fanbase who claims to have such high standards, doesn't see this.

 

[GoHerdMarshallYes]

there is also a difference in being a nice guy and playing the political games. A small ESPN story came out after Doc was let go discussing internal differences of opinion inside the athletic department is what cost Doc his job. I had also heard Doc lost the political game within the University. Question is did Hamrick as well?

im trying to figure out if the anti Marshall hoops guys posting are really Docs friends or if they really don’t like Dan. I have a feeling if Doc had been more fan friendly and played the political games better he would still have a job. Did Doc and Dan get along? Did Dan and Hamrick get along? Interesting

Its not about friends of either coach. Its about people who are critical of one coach who has a winning record most of his coaching career and 1 title, being demolished by the fans for not winning, and another having the same resume but being given a ton of free passes because "gosh golly darn, I love his analytics speech!"

I do agree politics has probably been a key part of all this. Dan's got his wife on the MU BoG I believe? So where's he going? Doc was more of a "I'm here to coach the team" kind of guy. I had no problem with that either.
I'm sure Hamrick preferred Doc since he hired him and was not the one to not renew his contract (Gilbert did that) but the AD is likely to be in support of both coaches regardless.

 

[trailherd]

current CUSA teams? Or does that include Memphis and Cincinnati and Ville and the teams that were actually good?

Current teams only, I think you are seriously disregarding the basketball history of WKU, UAB, UTEP, ODU, and Charlotte, who have collectively won more games in the tournament than the top 5 teams in the MAC have even played.

 

[GoHerdMarshallYes]

Current teams only, I think you are seriously disregarding the basketball history of WKU, UAB, UTEP, ODU, and Charlotte, who have collectively won more games in the tournament than the top 5 teams in the MAC have even played.

WKU is 15th all time in terms of winningest teams in NCAA history. That's impressive!

 

[The Real SamC]

I don't see how MH does not resign at the end of this athletic year. He was over-ruled by his superiors, and thus of what good is he? If he tells you, be you a potential employee, a current employee, a booster or advertiser with $$, or an intern wanting to take the afternoon off, he cannot give you his word on it, because he is no longer the final say.

MH, much like DD, is doing this job as a sort of retirement fantasy job camp situation anyway. He doesn't need the money, and will probably just fade away.

 

[KyMUfan]

Dan negated the 30 year drought in 4 years...since then he has done exactly nothing.

Its also easier to manage a roster of what, 17 players than a full 100? I get your point but come on.
I'm sure Dan's brand of basketball is exciting, for the opposing fans, since he blows leads.
I guess being a friend of the media gets you a pass for being average in terms of coaching and winning. Makes no sense a fanbase who claims to have such high standards, doesn't see this.

It is easier to manage a smaller group but football also has a considerably larger coaching staff and the players are somewhat more segregated - offense vs. defense, strength vs skill positions, etc. If Doc had won some key games I believe he would still be here but he didn't and we are now having this discussion.

Dan will be 74 this summer. He's not going to be HC forever. His teams do blow leads but they have also come back and overcome some big deficits. I've enjoyed his run and so have many others that I know. You and many others don't like him and/or his style of basketball. I do. Not the end of the world either way. There are many bigger issues in this world today. I get to go to MU football and basketball games with a dear friend who is in his mid 80s. He has really enjoyed Dan's run too. We have had more fun at the basketball games over the last few years that at the football games. I treasure that time with him because I don't know how much longer we will be able to enjoy them. I guess that is where my positive bias for DD comes from.

 

[KyMUfan]

WKU is 15th all time in terms of winningest teams in NCAA history. That's impressive!

And most of it came when they were members of either the OVC or the Sun-Belt...

 

[KyMUfan]

I don't see how MH does not resign at the end of this athletic year. He was over-ruled by his superiors, and thus of what good is he? If he tells you, be you a potential employee, a current employee, a booster or advertiser with $$, or an intern wanting to take the afternoon off, he cannot give you his word on it, because he is no longer the final say.

MH, much like DD, is doing this job as a sort of retirement fantasy job camp situation anyway. He doesn't need the money, and will probably just fade away.

I believe his contract is up the end of June and will not likely be renewed.

 

[5150]

Its not about friends of either coach. Its about people who are critical of one coach who has a winning record most of his coaching career and 1 title, being demolished by the fans for not winning, and another having the same resume but being given a ton of free passes because "gosh golly darn, I love his analytics speech!"

I do agree politics has probably been a key part of all this. Dan's got his wife on the MU BoG I believe? So where's he going? Doc was more of a "I'm here to coach the team" kind of guy. I had no problem with that either.
I'm sure Hamrick preferred Doc since he hired him and was not the one to not renew his contract (Gilbert did that) but the AD is likely to be in support of both coaches regardless.

I have also heard Dan and MH don’t get along. The one thing you didn’t include in the discussion is the football program always seemed to have drama surrounding the team.

 

[KyMUfan]

Current teams only, I think you are seriously disregarding the basketball history of WKU, UAB, UTEP, ODU, and Charlotte, who have collectively won more games in the tournament than the top 5 teams in the MAC have even played.

In the last 10 years of the teams you have mentioned, only UAB (3 times - twice when CUSA had two teams in) and ODU (once) have made the NCAA as members of CUSA. UAB Is 1-3 over this span. ODU is 0-1. MU and Coach D have just as many NCAA wins in the last 10 years as these storied programs have combined during this time period as members of CUSA.

 

[KyMUfan]

Last 10 years of NCAA Tournament (2010 - 2019) CUSA is 5-13 for a 27.8% winning percentage. MAC is 5-10 for a 33.3% winning percentage.

End of the day over recent history both conferences are very similar in product and results. With all of the conference realignments CUSA has seen more movement with the MAC remaining somewhat stable and intact. Both are near the bottom of major conferences in football and basketball. It is what it is.

College sports have changed drastically over the last 20 years and we are where we are. I would hope anyone with a clear and open mind could see this and we can stop nitpicking each other to pieces.

 

[KyMUfan]

TV: The MAC's deal was signed in 2014. While that may not seem like all that long ago, in TV business land, it was a different world. "Everyone" had either cable or dish. And, thus "everyone" paid, and paid a whole lot, for all these sports channels. Today, while streaming means extra games on things like ESPN+ to the sports fan, to the MAJORITY of homes that contain NO ONE who is really interested in sports, it means that there are plenty of ways to get TV, both linear content and/or on-demand content, without paying one cent for sports. This means that TV contracts for sports are a huge dead weight for companies like Disney.

Meanwhile the CUSA contract is a product of the current era, signed in 2018, and reflective of the current situation.

The MAC contract will expire, finally, after the 26-27 sports seasons. There is no reason to believe that any company is interested in renewal at anything near what they are now paying. Which, since the MACers have driven away what fans they had with weeknight games, leaves those schools with a big budget hole and thus a huge decision to make.

Any renewals will likely only benefit the P5 conferences. I think each SEC member school will get over $60 million per year just for football rights. That is more than double MU's entire athletic budget...

 

[muthed]

Its not about friends of either coach. Its about people who are critical of one coach who has a winning record most of his coaching career and 1 title, being demolished by the fans for not winning, and another having the same resume but being given a ton of free passes because "gosh golly darn, I love his analytics speech!"

I do agree politics has probably been a key part of all this. Dan's got his wife on the MU BoG I believe? So where's he going? Doc was more of a "I'm here to coach the team" kind of guy. I had no problem with that either.
I'm sure Hamrick preferred Doc since he hired him and was not the one to not renew his contract (Gilbert did that) but the AD is likely to be in support of both coaches regardless.

Unless there's some hanky panky going on, it would be his SISTER on the BOG.

 

[ohio herd]

They just have to play night games during the middle of the week to have it.

I live in Athens and there are nights when Ohio is playing on a Tuesday night the only people there are the Marching 110 and the players parents and girlfriends. I used to go to a few of the Tuesday games but have no desire to sit in 20* weather in late October or November and watch a game I can go home and watch in the comfort of my family room. The atmosphere is non existent with the exception of the Army ROTC Cadets shooting the canon with Ohio scores

 

[ohio herd]

I don't care what Greg did at Pikeville he did a solid job here. He was Like Doc in that he could win but not win enough for the Herd faithful.

 

[KyMUfan]

I live in Athens and there are nights when Ohio is playing on a Tuesday night the only people there are the Marching 110 and the players parents and girlfriends. I used to go to a few of the Tuesday games but have no desire to sit in 20* weather in late October or November and watch a game I can go home and watch in the comfort of my family room. The atmosphere is non existent with the exception of the Army ROTC Cadets shooting the canon with Ohio scores

Understand completely. Not challenging your post in any way but student attendance and interest seems to be waning at most colleges, and even high schools doesn't it?

Athens is a beautiful place as is the campus.. I had no idea the school is as large as it is until I first went there. OU has a lot more students than most but they seem to stay away even more so then.

 

[KyMUfan]

So as this thread has progressed there seems to be two prevailing thoughts. One is the Herd is playing in a weak basketball conference that it should be dominating and another that trumpets the past glories of several CUSA member teams and possibly overstates the strength of the conference in the process.

These present a dichotomy - on the one hand MU should be winning virtually at will and the other that we can't compete with such rich and storied programs with our pedigree.

The truth, as is often the case, lies somewhere in the middle. CUSA is neither as weak as some here tend to believe nor is it head and shoulders about the MAC because of NCAA performances of some member teams from 40 or 50 years ago.

It is not easy competing as a mid-major school with a limited athletic budget and smaller than average enrollment. Sure MU has some great facilities but some are lacking. It just isn't easy to just go out and win. Everyone is trying to win as well. Most D-1 players and coaches didn't get to where they are because they didn't know how to win or weren't competitive enough. It just isn't easy to win consistently at a high level, regardless of conference affiliation.

 

[Crush Nasty]

I live in Athens and there are nights when Ohio is playing on a Tuesday night the only people there are the Marching 110 and the players parents and girlfriends. I used to go to a few of the Tuesday games but have no desire to sit in 20* weather in late October or November and watch a game I can go home and watch in the comfort of my family room. The atmosphere is non existent with the exception of the Army ROTC Cadets shooting the canon with Ohio scores

same can be said for a lot of CUSA games. Same can be said for an Akron game or a couple others.

 

[goherd73]

I do agree politics has probably been a key part of all this. Dan's got his wife on the MU BoG I believe?

I believe you are wrong.

Kathy D. is Dan's sister and is very accomplished in her own right.