GHMY - well thought out post. Agreed on the double standard (Sam’s point) for the record big Doc fan here & can’t wait ‘til we tee it up in 24 days
Boise State #27 in Coaches Poll:
- Thread starter Jeremybozz
- Start date
GHMY - well thought out post. Agreed on the double standard (Sam’s point) for the record big Doc fan here & can’t wait ‘til we tee it up in 24 days
For the record, I'm not saying Doc doesn't deserve criticism, its just not the over the top, overly dramatic, "woe is me..." reaction he should be getting.
I was one of the first just wondering WTF he was doing in the USM game. The team absolutely did not show up and that is on Doc.
But my God, I'm not going to give up on the team, or declare the season over.
Some of the more seasoned complainers still reference 2016 as a reason for Doc to be fired.
As if 2017 and 2018 didn't happen...both with 8 or more wins and 2 bowl wins...both over superior teams from superior conferences.
Danny got a pass against some of the teams he played. It is very hard to win as a mid major with single digit losses.
But he didn't seem to get any heat for being so badly underprepared against Texas AM, Maryland, or UVA...the latter of whom, subbed in a team manager?
Imagine if Doc had that happen...this board would go nuclear.
Okay. Answer this.
If MU football played the most exciting football you've ever seen, but goes .555 overall since 2014, would you demand Doc be fired?
I guess Penn State and Michigan head coaches suck too...
Last 9 years? 1 conference title combined.
Both programs have had turnover with their head coach. Not to mention everything Penn State went through.
Terrible comparison, and it didn't help you at all in your feeble attempt to argue.
There are a couple interesting things in this part of your post.
First, the acknowledgement that the AAC and MWC are "superior" conferences to our own. This lends a bit more gravitas to the argument being made by people on this forum that Doc, for all his supposed recruiting abilities, should be running right through what you consider a mediocre conference.
Second, the attempt to paint Colorado State and USF as superior teams. They were both 7-5 when they played in the bowl games, with USF notably losing five in a row and having a depleted roster. I will concede that Colorado State had a couple good wins. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy we won, but it's incredibly disingenuous to try to paint these teams as world-beaters compared to little ol' Marshall.
You're exaggerating things in an attempt to win an argument. There were a lot of folks on here after each of those losses giving Dan crap about the way the team played and the lack of preparation.
Yes, I was one of them. And the response? "One time we were 4th in the league, got hot in the conference tournament and who knows, it might happen again. You are NEGATIVE." Same response given to any attempt to discuss basketball in a realistic way. They seem to think the season is some sort of exhibition and seem to think that not only should it not be discussed, but that nothing can be even learned from it. Just get hot in the conference tournament and who knows?
Also the same crew, while so unhappy with CUSA vis football that NOTHING done in it is an accomplishment, shut down any conversation about the woeful status of CUSA basketball, where a third of the teams make a token effort.
We all know how you acted during basketball season. Don't try to play it off as you were trying to have legitimate basketball discussion.
I will note that you didn't refute anything I said in the first part of my post, so it's nice to see you finally acknowledge our place in the grand scheme of the college football world.
During basketball season, yes SEASON, I hope I acted like some one wishing to discuss the team, while you, and moreso some others, just wanted to say "we might get hot in the conference tournament and who knows". To which I can only respond that the Tigers are only 35 1/2 back in the AL Central, with 51 to play, but I don't think "they might get really hot in September and who knows" is not legitimate baseball discussion. Basketball SEASON starts in November, not March. Be here.
As to the first part, that is a discussion between you and another poster, the fact that I did not respond does not mean I agree with your Anti-Marshall views. If you want a response, here it is. As I have repeatedly stated, all five G5 leagues are the same and in the same boat. Be the only undefeated and that = access bowl. Short of that one-in-a-lifetime event, anything between 6 and 12 wins = pre-Chrsitmas bowl versus another G5 or some 8th place 6-6 P5 loser. That is what MU football is. That is what G5 football is. If going to and winning a bowl game on those terms is "underachievement" to you, then MU football is just not for you. Move on.
His immortalization of my comment can be condensed into 2 words:
Q: In what alternate version of reality does Sam exist?
"Who knows?"
Q: In what alternate version of reality does Sam exist?
"Who knows?"
Care to provide a quote where I said "we might get hot in the conference tournament and who knows" or something along those lines?
You can't, because you're full of shit like always.
Not sure what your point is. I was talking about playing Illinois in a bowl game instead of NiU. Anyway anytime we play and beat anyone from the Big 10 I say it is a big win.beating teams like Purdue and South Carolina (sec)even years they had a bad record is still a good thing IMO
We're venturing into the subjective here, where clarification can be as ugly as a Simpsons character shown from the front.
I consider what others say in terms of other teams in other conferences. CUSA is not on the same level as MWC or AAC for sure. If by the mere mentioning and association of someone better, MU goes out and wins, it no longer is a school from a better conference but rather, that school individually, for that year, or even that game.
Example A...your breakdown of USF and CSU...using records and technicalities versus just accepting MU beat two teams from (maybe this is where I made the mistake) BETTER conferences.
Where did I say they were world beaters? I just said they were better teams from better conferences*
You think North Texas fans are saying, "Well, we really aren't that good ya know. Arkansas ended up being 2-10 in 2018..."
Hell no, they're saying, "A win over an SEC team is a good win!" It was also very much talked about during the season on here...where people didn't use Arkansas' record against North Texas to discredit them.
MU seems to be the only collective where the fans actively try to discredit a win in football.
Its all due to their dislike of the head coach from day one...which is a gross disservice to the team and players.
(They do deserve their own criticisms, but when they win, it all goes back to Doc, which diminishes their efforts).
As for basketball...Danny's loss criticism was not nearly as toxic as Doc's. Basketball is a different perspective however, and losses can be afforded more often. But individual efforts in games were not nearly as picked apart.
And certainly nobody declared Danny be fired.
Doc can monumentally f*uck up and he has. However, I don't go through every miniscule detail to find screw ups, especially when the team wins...unlike the bunch on here.
Yet when Danny wins, everyone is happy, regardless of a lead blown or giving the opponent a massive lead at the start (both are common with MU basketball), because they look at it as a win and decide to forget the details of the game.
At least enough to not declare Hamrick fires Dan.
Why is this? Simple.
Dan's personality is that of a golden retriever.
Doc's personality is that of a fried lobster.
Dan's an MU guy.
Doc is not.
Dan puts on throwback style jerseys for the team and gives them a classic look...which makes the old fans feel mushy and reminisce to "simpler times when my papaw took me to the men's hat store."
Doc incorporates the most dangerous color of all...<gasp> black!!! Into the uniforms.
(Still wondering how nobody seems to care Dan wears more black MU shirts on gamedays than the football team does on their uniforms but thats another topic).
Due to these factors...the fans are more likely to side with Dan.
There's nothing wrong with that when it comes to the criticisms of who they are as individuals and public eye.
But when it comes to their body of work, both are pretty even at the same time in their coaching careers except one gets a ton more heat than the other.
I simply find that unfair and make note of it.
Yet, somehow I am "the homer" because of it.
*corrected adjective from "superior"
You are a minority then...plenty discredit it because of the record Purdue had.
So for that, welcome! I am happy to know someone else isn't complaining about records of other teams and sees the overall ending.
As for Illinois?
Well...one is in Texas (where no MU fans live...or Illinois fans for that matter) in the middle of winter.
The other is in Florida...where the majority of the team's families are, where plenty of MU alumni are, and you could say...the better Illinois team would be.
Or maybe Hamrick finally answered the calls of "We should go back to the MAC...we had sooooo many rivalries there!!"
I dunno...you could e-mail him and ask...I'm sure any Statute of Limitations on that has expired.
But he'd probably wonder why anyone still cares.
I like Doc, always have. I do think if he played a more open style of offense that more fans would gravitate to him.
You can tell he is a Nehlen disciple.
You can tell he is a Nehlen disciple.
Excellent analysis.
MU's current fan base is the only one that tries to discredit its own football wins. And this is new. This is only on Doc. I'm old, and I never heard anybody (save the petty jealous Spamites, but that is another discussion) say "It is just the SoCon" or "It is just I-AA" or "UTC is a joke" or "the MAC is crap" or "I'm tired of making the playoffs" or "this Motor City Bowl is not enough" or such like. But, since Doc got here, there is an element that has this complex opinion that CUSA is so easy that MU should win it every year, but that doing so is nothing, and that going to a bowl game in places like Tampa or Boca Raton is meaningless.
And, you are right, it is aimed at Doc.
Meanwhile, the basketball team can be slightly over .500, get blown out multiple times, and its all cute that they wear throwbacks to a long bygone era when Huntington, and Mullens, were very different than today.
What were the technicalities?
Had USF not lost their last five games? Had they not lost 11 players to suspension and 3 more to injury before the game?
I'm not quoting the "where did I say that" portion to see if you or Sam try to "gotcha" me.
This is incorrect.
Going back and looking at the posts in that time frame, the NT/Arkansas game was discussed for about a week. Some of that discussion wasn't even about the fact that North Texas won, it was about the punt return.
I didn't quote the last part of the post, because it was just repeating the 'Everyone is mean to Doc and likes Dan' over and over again. The irony of your complaint is the fact that you are way more toxic towards Dan than Doc. You're guilty of the exact same thing you accuse others of doing.
I 100% agree Doc is conservative and it drives me insane sometimes.
But when he did open up the offense at times (2014 basically the whole season) again, efforts were made to ensure Doc and MU weren't to be given credit.
A big complaint against Legg was how "boring" the offense was.
Despite scoring often and breaking records and all, lets forget that...
Doc hired Cramsey, who is big on offense...we ran trick plays and looked quite different.
But the perpetual MU football bashers say,
<yawn> "We aren't scoring enough."
Cute.
Being the team that won, why does that matter? If you're a USF fan, sure, you lost and can name reasons why you did. But should the winning team really care what condition the other team is in?
Not sure you'd see Saban even mention something like that unless he was asked. He'd probably be mad they didn't win by more.
The team wins and moves on.
You're right it was. Largely remembered for that trick play/punt return.
But no Arkansas record was mentioned.
Nor will it be...by North Texas fans.
Yet MU beats Purdue and thats the first thing you'll read (the entire season as well) was how bad Purdue was.
I was happy MU won C-USA in basketball. I was happy they beat Wichita State.
Before that, Herrion got MU further than anyone...which is both strange and possibly forgotten.
If you want to deny Dan's gameday losses don't have entire threads with the topic "Fire Dan" on them then I can't help you. Maybe its the other boards' misery that often overlaps to here as well...not sure.
My point is, Doc and Dan are totally different people and many fans determined already, that one is more preferred than the other.
Whats bothersome is how much they are unwilling to change that perspective and narrow it down to one or two factors.
In this case its "One conference title in nine years."
Well, I'd guess a large percentage of coaches don't have a conference title in nine years, and yet the fans would willingly pick from that large percentage field.
I think if fans just stuck to being more consistent in what they want, instead of nitpicking all the time because the head coach makes Ben Stein look like Bill Burr by comparison, they'd be much better off and MU would have more fan support.
It’s Doc’s association with WVU. Some people can’t get past that. Dan on the other hand is a Son of Marshall....has open practice and yucks it up with fans. Won a lower level post season tournament with a team ballyhooed in preseason as one our best returning squads ever. It’s not going to change.
This. Sad to say.
The MU fan base has been shell-shocked over the years as coach after coach has left us for greener (no pun intended) pastures. In both sports. Tacy, Altman, Donovan, Jones, Parrish, Chaump Donnan. One element has compensated with this variation of Bo Shembeckler's famous "A Michigan Man is going to coach Michigan" theme. Looking for the local hero, the prodigal son come home to make everything right, a man with deep green blood in his veins, so in love with MU that he will never us, no matter if he were offered the UK basketball job, the Alabama football job or being Secretary General of the UN.
This got us the greatest coaching hire in MU history, in BP. It also got us, in a way, Mike Hamrick, who I think is our best AD ever. It also got us KO Marcum, the worst human being to ever sit foot on the MU campus, and years and years of Greg White, who could not coach, would have never even been interviewed for the job but for his MU diplomas, and would have been fired long before he finally "quit". And it got us Danny. The jury, to an impartial observer, is still out on that one.
And then there is the reverse. Doc, who went to, you know where, and who touched Fat Donnie. Some will never get over that.
Hey, buddy - hold it right there! My PaPaw worked in that hat store!!
Care to provide a quote where I said "we might get hot in the conference tournament and who knows" or something along those lines?
You can't, because you're full of shit like always.
ahhhh….errrr……..Random - that would be my original post/quote. Sam has latched onto it like a dog on a bone....the dog usually wins!!!
update - Random - I'm talking about 2017-18 season!! Believe me, I am the originator!
p.s.s. - re-read post 50: Yes, he did refer to "you", but he named me as "moresosomeothers"
Last edited:
Negative, ghost rider.
He quoted me in post 50 and said that I was one of the ones that said "we might get hot in the conference tournament and who knows". That's why I asked for him to provide a quote, which he still hasn't done.
I don't think you quite understood what I meant by that but...
ODU has much better financial resources.
ODU is in a better state for recruiting.
ODU is in a large metropolitan area.
ODU is still in the mindset of "moving up" with the construction and renovations being done around campus.
ODU is pretty strong with academics.
ODU has a larger student body.
Thats what I meant by "on paper."
How many threads were made with the topic of "Fire D'Antoni" after a loss vs. "Fire Doc" after a loss?
You're the one pointing to conference championships as a measure for a coaches success.
If it were a universal aspect of coaching and hiring, a large majority of head coaches wouldn't have a job.
Clearly it isn't.
I am a III. Charley Sr. worked the second level in the suit department at Wrights....The hats were quite the thing in the 50's early 60's. Now they are back, but much less formal.....
