"Clearly" not the guy?

[Herdmaster]

I am not going to say that Wells is better or worse than any other QB that has played at Marshall. Like comparing two different types of apples. Both are apples and have different favors and some are for cooking and baking and some are just for eating.

Everyone can build different cases for and against Wells but that unfortunately is not what we really needed when Wells got jumped on in the WKU game. What we needed is a really good backup QB that could step in and keep the team moving down the field and win the game. Hopefully one of the incoming Freshmen can start challenging Wells to get better and start making better game decision but we will not find out until next year.

As my dad use to say to me as I was growing up, plan for the worse situation and hope for the best.

 

[HerdFan73]

It pains me to say it, but I mostly agree with Perkins here lol.

I haven’t been able to read every post so forgive me, but one thing I’ve not seen mentioned is that Cato had the most prolific possession receiver in MU history with him his entire career. Comparing sophomore years, Wells doesn’t have 1 single receiver that can compare with Tommy Schuler, Aaron Dobson, and really even Gator Hoskins.

 

[HerdGreen]

GW is a good QB that needs to be coached up if he's going to continue to develop. I'm just not sure Cramsey is the one to get him over hump

 

[ohio herd]

I can cherry pick stats to create whatever narrative I want too. Let's compare Cato and Wells second season as starters I'm not going to talk about the teams records because that 2012 defense might be the worst in school history. But, despite the regression in record due to that putrid Rippon led defense, it was obvious Cato was improving and showing the signs of the special player he became.

Wells on the other hand has regressed somewhat. He has an incredible arm, but his decision making and untimely turnovers have been a factor in several games, and not in a good way. He still gives the team as currently constructed the best chance to win, but I'm taking second year Cato over wells all day every day as my QB and it's not even close.

Cato

CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	TD	INT	LNG	RTG

406

584

69.5

4,201

7.2

37

11

72

147.1

Wells

CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	TD	INT	LNG	RTG

295

445

66.3

3,532

7.9

16

13

65

139.0

My take away from what Aaron posted was not to suggest that Grant was better than Cato. It was, as I understood it, a graph to show that he is putting up similar numbers after 2 seasons to one of our greatest QB's ever. Is Grant going to be as good as Cato? Probably not, but who knows. If nothing else he is certainly not a scrub.

 

[ohio herd]

okay for all of you Wells doubters. Like @HerdFan73 said, Wells did not have the WR corp Cato had either. Now take a step back and think , outside the Big 3,- Chad /Byron and Cato, who has done any better in the first 2 years? Not Green, Litton, AJ Graham, Skinner, Morris, Anderson, or Stan Hill who had Josh Davis, Watts and Rader to throw to. I think he is a solid QB and some of you are not giving him credit for what he has been able to achieve. Can he improve? I say yes and believe he will.

 

[Rock98Dog]

There’s no reason Gaines shouldn’t have had Gator level stats. If receivers and QB aren’t on the same page it’s because they need to work harder to be on the same page.

 

[HerdFan73]

There’s no reason Gaines shouldn’t have had Gator level stats. If receivers and QB aren’t on the same page it’s because they need to work harder to be on the same page.

Gaines is more athletic, but that doesn’t mean he is as good of a route runner, has the same head on his shoulders , or could plain catch as well (he couldn’t).

There’s a lot more to it than “Well this guy is athletic, so if him and the QB tried hard enough, they’d be prolific.”

 

[Herd-in-ATL]

Sure, concussion be dammed. You should get those 2 yards and get blown up by the DB that had a 30 yard run to placate Herd in atl. It told me he was not ready to play and they should have started Zaban. Not sure your experience with concussions but the effects don’t magically go away a couple weeks later.

Maybe you saw it from a different angle, but It looked to me that he had a few yards to spare (enough for the 1st) before getting touched out of bounds, which would have tacked on another 15 yards. I actually played a year of college football in the 80's as a walk on, relegated to what was affectionally know as "the meat squad", so yes I know all about being concussed, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

 

[muthed]

Our medical team sucks for clearing him then. It was 2 yards and he would have only taken a legal hit if he was going to be hit at all.

Yeh, like Willie took a "legal" hit.

 

[HerdFan73]

Maybe you saw it from a different angle, but It looked to me that he had a few yards to spare (enough for the 1st) before getting touched out of bounds, which would have tacked on another 15 yards. I actually played a year of college football in the 80's as a walk on, relegated to what was affectionally know as "the meat squad", so yes I know all about being concussed, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

(this isn’t directed at you Herd in ATL, just this whole Grant running OB in general conversation)

He just made a freaking mistake guys. I guarantee you after having a concussion, and the debacle that ensued post injury in the WKU game he was coached to protect himself.

He could have gotten the first down sure, snd would have taken a huge hit for it most likely. Everybody is piling on because the announcers acted so befuddled. Golic Jr. was wrong about everything the entire game, I give two craps about what he had to say.

Was it the right decision by grant ? No, he jumped the gun he coulda squeezed another yard or so out of it safely. But he had about 1/10th of a second to make that decision with a stud linebacker with an angle bearing down.

He lost track of the sticks, and erred a little too much on the side of caution. Simple as that.

I don’t recall Grant shying away from contact all year. One play, he doesn’t go John Elway on 2nd down on the minus 30, and now everybody wants to question his manhood.

 

[raleighherdfan]

I am surprised honestly that Huff didn't go tot the portal or Juco and find some seasoned qb's or at least one to bring into camp. From 1 to 2 at Marshall is a huggggge drop off in production. It needs addressed.

Huff explained In one of his press conferences why a portal Qb is not always the answer.

 

[marshallisqbu]

Wells and Huff need to show they can win the big one. He was on track against WKU and I think that could have been his breakout.

 

[BRZA]

My take away from what Aaron posted was not to suggest that Grant was better than Cato. It was, as I understood it, a graph to show that he is putting up similar numbers after 2 seasons to one of our greatest QB's ever. Is Grant going to be as good as Cato? Probably not, but who knows. If nothing else he is certainly not a scrub.

I get it, I'm not a Grant hater, I just felt his post was constructed in a way that ignored the reality of the current situation. Grant had a small step back his second year after a decent first season and Cato had a rough first season and took off his second. Sure, there are other variables that were discussed above, such as the talent each had around them etc.... But, I still feel with Cato you could see he was a different player and could read the game much better than Grant currently does in year two.

The gist of my post was not to flame Grant, but to simply point out that lumping their two seasons together and insinuating they are on a comparable trajectory is not the reality. Grant has the tools to be a stud, but currently unless he is up against a team they totally outclass he struggles. I think part of it is coaching, part is personnel, but a big part of it is on Grant making terrible decisions.

I wouldn't be surprised if the game came to him next year and he takes the next step.. I hope it does, but I just can't say at this point it's anywhere close.

 

[BRZA]

okay for all of you Wells doubters. Like @HerdFan73 said, Wells did not have the WR corp Cato had either. Now take a step back and think , outside the Big 3,- Chad /Byron and Cato, who has done any better in the first 2 years? Not Green, Litton, AJ Graham, Skinner, Morris, Anderson, or Stan Hill who had Josh Davis, Watts and Rader to throw to. I think he is a solid QB and some of you are not giving him credit for what he has been able to achieve. Can he improve? I say yes and believe he will.

Litton's numbers were always good, but he had other issues that negatively impacted the team. I think Grant is a step below Litton at the moment. Hill is a tough one, because he was injured in his first real year as a starter and it nerfed his mobility. That mobility was a huge part of his game and it never came back to him. But, currently I think Grant is on par with post injury Hill, The others were subpar, and played on subpar teams and Wells is better than any of them without a doubt. But, as you mention he still has room to improve, and likely will.

 

[Rock98Dog]

Gaines is more athletic, but that doesn’t mean he is as good of a route runner, has the same head on his shoulders , or could plain catch as well (he couldn’t).

There’s a lot more to it than “Well this guy is athletic, so if him and the QB tried hard enough, they’d be prolific.”

Yeah, I’ve watched both of them for years and know the skill set of each. There’s no reason for the big difference in stats.

 

[MarshallSnare]

Ok, so I am kinda bored, haha, just looked at each game in 2011 and 2012, haha

I am going to try my best NOT to skew this to make my point look better

2011 4th quarter stuff
WVU loss - 0 TD's
USM - 0 TD
Ohio - O TD
VT - 0 TD
Lville - 1 HUGE TD pass with 1:49 to go to win it
UCF - 0 TD
Rice - 0 TD, Graham started
Houston - 1 TD down 42, AJ Started
UAB - 1 TD up 45 points at the time, AJ started
Tulsa - 0 TD
Memphis - 0 TD, 1 TD for Memphis actually off a sack fumble of Cato, two late rushing TD's by running backs keep marshall in bowl contention
ECU - 0 TD's but we won to go to a bowl
FIU - late TD to put us up 10 and win bowl

2012
WVU - 1 TD down 36
WCU - 0 TD but up a ton
Ohio - 0 TD, late interception to end game
Rice - 0 TD, won the game in OT
Purdue - 2 TD
Tulsa - 1 TD, lost, had 2 4th quarter turnover on downs on incomplete passes on 4th and 7 or less
USM - 0 TD
UCF - 1 TD but down 37 when threw it
Memphis - 1 big TD late to seal game
UAB - 1 td late to cut the lead to 7, didnt get the onside kick, we were down 31 - 7 and scored 17 in the 4th quarter, lost
Houston - 0 TD
ECU - 0 TD but got hurt

We did go from 7 - 6 and a bowl win to 5 - 7 and no bowl

Wells went from 7 - 3 to 7 - 6

The main difference in the win/loss records for each QB are the defenses that supported them. 2012 was statistically one of the worst Marshall Defenses of the past 30 years, yet we were a Cato injury away from making a bowl game that year.

On the flip side, Wells has one of the best defenses in school history last year. This year's defense was actually solid, but spent 2/3 of every game on the field because of the offenses lack of ability to move the chains.

 

[HerdFan73]

The main difference in the win/loss records for each QB are the defenses that supported them. 2012 was statistically one of the worst Marshall Defenses of the past 30 years, yet we were a Cato injury away from making a bowl game that year.

On the flip side, Wells has one of the best defenses in school history last year. This year's defense was actually solid, but spent 2/3 of every game on the field because of the offenses lack of ability to move the chains.

This years defense blew MULTIPLE 4th quarter leads.

 

[greengeezer]

This years defense blew MULTIPLE 4th quarter leads.

That was my biggest disappointment for this year. Not sure why we faulted in the last quarter. Conditioning? Psychological?
If we had won all those games, we could have had a ten win season.

 

[raleighherdfan]

That was my biggest disappointment for this year. Not sure why we faulted in the last quarter. Conditioning? Psychological?
If we had won all those games, we could have had a ten win season.

Mental lapses, yes. This is one of the better conditioned teams we've had

 

[greengeezer]

. This is one of the better conditioned teams we've had

That is what I had read. Hard to explain why we couldn’t hold on in the 4th quarter.

 

[MarshallSnare]

This years defense blew MULTIPLE 4th quarter leads.

Well, that's to be expected with the number of short drives the offense had throughout the season. No wonder their tank was empty by the 4th quarter. The defense was on the field an average of 6 minutes longer per game than the offense.

I will say though, it was a big disappointment, especially given how much Huff emphasized that fact that we will be better conditioned than every team we play in his introductory press conference.

 

[raleighherdfan]

Well, that's to be expected with the number of short drives the offense had throughout the season. No wonder their tank was empty by the 4th quarter. The defense was on the field an average of 6 minutes longer per game than the offense.

I will say though, it was a big disappointment, especially given how much Huff emphasized that fact that we will be better conditioned than every team we play in his introductory press conference.

Their tank wasn't empty. No matter how many times you claim it to be.

 

[THUNDERGround]

I dunno, raleigh, don't you think the long drives took a toll on the d toward the end of the game? It just seemed like holes opened up and we just looked two steps slower.

 

[raleighherdfan]

I dunno, raleigh, don't you think the long drives took a toll on the d toward the end of the game? It just seemed like holes opened up and we just looked two steps slower.

Our terrible secondary and undersized LBs were the major issue with our dfense. I didn't really see speed being an issue late in the game.

 

[raleighherdfan]

Hard to explain why we couldn’t hold on in the 4th quarter.

Pretty simple. Our defensive secondary was terrible and we couldn't score.

 

[MarshallSnare]

Their tank wasn't empty. No matter how many times you claim it to be.

You know nothing more about that claim than anyone else on here, no matter how informed you think that you are.

 

[raleighherdfan]

You know nothing more about that claim than anyone else on here, no matter how informed you think that you are.

Ok. Sure thing.

 

[HerdFan73]

I dunno, raleigh, don't you think the long drives took a toll on the d toward the end of the game? It just seemed like holes opened up and we just looked two steps slower.

Listen to any defensive coach and they will tell you it’s the defenses job to keep themselves off the field.

You gotta play complimentary football for sure, but our D is allowed to force 3 and outs too. When the defense gives up a 17 play drive in the first quarter against ECU and a couple of other teams as well (IIRC), that’s not the offenses fault.

 

[muthed]

Listen to any defensive coach and they will tell you it’s the defenses job to keep themselves off the field.

You gotta play complimentary football for sure, but our D is allowed to force 3 and outs too. When the defense gives up a 17 play drive in the first quarter against ECU and a couple of other teams as well (IIRC), that’s not the offenses fault.

Didn't we have a CUSA 1st team defensive back? Mr. PI (Gilmore)

 

[sportsphantom1]

Why try to combine seasons. If you want a real comparison look at how both QBs progressed between their Freshman season to Sophomore season. Its especially important to note, Cato was a true freshman when thrust in to the starter role. Grant Wells by comparison had already been in the system a year before he was named starter. Just looking at their Sophomore stats here is where Cato was at this point in his career vs where Wells is now:

Rakeem Cato: 4,201 yds 69.5% completion 37 TDs 11 ints
Grant Wells: 3,532 yds 66.3% completion 16 TDs 13 ints

There is a clear difference between these two QBs. Wells as a 3rd year sophomore is "clearly" not in the same league as Cato as a sophomore in just his 2nd year.

 

[Marine03]

I keep reading about this one guy being "not the guy." It is "clear he is not the guy," and so forth

yet, compared to our all time leading passer...

Through 23 games

5,623 yards to 5,565 yards
64.3 completion percentage to 65.7
7.9 yards per passing attempt compared to 7
237 yards rushing and 9 touchdowns compared to -1 yard rushing and 0 touchdowns
34 touchdown passes compared to 52 touchdown passes
20 interceptions compared to 22 interceptions

9 losses compared to 12
14 wins compared to 11

The guy who is "clearly not the guy," is the guy WHO JUST LEFT

Now, is he better than the other guy in every stat....nope. But is he "clearly" not the guy when compared to the best stat guy we have literally ever had......

And many want to speak about wins and losses being the end all be all, welp, the proof is in the numbers, and the "guy who is clearly not the guy," is better than one of our best ever through the same point in their careers.

I saw one play all year that made me possibly even doubt Grant in a little tiny bit, and it was when he dipped out of bounds early before getting a first down. Well, if you watch enough football you see that happen every single game, and this was a guy who we have never seen do that, who did it three weeks after suffering a serious concussion.

I know NOTHING i will say will ever change the mind of anyone, at all, but....

Oh well, GO HERD, and Merry Christmas to all!!!

FIFY