I know. I just find it funny if that were to happen, ole Sludge would have to admit Spears did something right, which would cause a microchip in his head to fry.
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I know. I just find it funny if that were to happen, ole Sludge would have to admit Spears did something right, which would cause a microchip in his head to fry.
He was never a coordinator.
He was never a coordinator was he? Believe he was a rb coach and assistant head coach or something. He is making more here according to what I can find. No guarantee he goes out and gets a high paying coordinator job with 0 experience.
My mistake. The point is, he'd take a lesser position for more money. At the very least, he'd take it because he's proven to be good at it. It may not be JC money but it's very good money and less pressure.
I feel some people realize they aren't HC material and are fine being coordinators/position coaches.
1. Because he probably wants to be a HC
2. First time G5 HCs that fail usually don't land other head coaching opportunities.
3. "Go back to being a coordinator." He was a position coach. Pay or not, going from HC to position coach is a demotion and most of these guys have egos. Unless the rumors are true about him wanting out of Huntington because he doesn't really like it here, if the our admin offers him an extension he would almost certainly accept it.
According to Google, the RB Coach for Alabama is being paid $850k. Also the people that believe he would be hired on as a coordinator, what on earth would convince a team to hire Huff as a coordinator when his teams have struggled to move the ball?
The Dan thing isn't a real stretch because Marshall has done the same thing in the past with other coaches. See Mark Snyder. He got an extension have a 4 win season.
If Huff fails here, he will go back to being a position coach (almost certainly RBs) somewhere and will very likely never get the opportunity to be a head coach ever again.
The differences between potentially extending Huff and the extension DD got are three fold...
1. DD was/is a Marshall guy, beloved by the elderly donors, sister on the BOG, etc. Huff is, let's just say, not beloved.
2. DD was riding out a final contract in his 70's. He wasn't trying to build a resume and move up, he was here for life until he decided not to be and retired.
3. DD had recent success to fall back on. When he signed his extension in 2022, he could still say "Hey remember how much fun it was when we made the big dance a few years ago?"... Huff doesn't get the same love for our Myrtle Beach Bowl triumph over a 6-6 UConn team a couple years back.
The differences between potentially extending Huff and the extension DD got are three fold...
1. DD was/is a Marshall guy, beloved by the elderly donors, sister on the BOG, etc. Huff is, let's just say, not beloved.
2. DD was riding out a final contract in his 70's. He wasn't trying to build a resume and move up, he was here for life until he decided not to be and retired.
3. DD had recent success to fall back on. When he signed his extension in 2022, he could still say "Hey remember how much fun it was when we made the big dance a few years ago?"... Huff doesn't get the same love for our Myrtle Beach Bowl triumph over a 6-6 UConn team a couple years back.
You're not wrong, however Marshall has a history of doing things on the cheap and technically Huff can point to the ND win and then blame everything on the portal and NIL. I am not saying that this is what will happen, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
In any event I hope that Smith and Spears already have a hot list going and gauging interest through back channels.
The other thing is that it's a presumably easy decision to make if we finish below .500. However I am curious as to the expectation that Smith and Spears have for earning an extension. If we go 7-5 or 8-4 do they extend Huff or are they as tired of Huff as most of the fanbase is?
Huff might get an extension at lower pay, not sure? His win at Notre Dame gave MU more media exposure than Dan's entire career at Marshall and that is worth something. That victory along with all the changes in college football might be enough to save his job if he has a decent/winning season this year. If Marshall hires a new football coach, it will be probably be in the CJ salary range.
He's not taking a pay cut... These guys all have agents and they would never allow that. His agent would tell him to turn it down and walk before taking a pay cut (as he should).
His win over Notre Dame was two years ago... Outside of the 80 of us who are on here regularly, no one nationally remembers that at this point. Im sure his agent would bring it up, but beating the worst ND team in recent memory, two years ago isn't a bargaining chip.
If we let Huff walk and hire a new coach the salary negotiations will begin with Huff's current salary.
If we finish below .500 = He's gone
If we win 8 or more games = He's almost certainly extended
The question is, what happens in the middle?
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Doc wasn't retained for making the conference championship game. I highly doubt they'll want Huff to stay for anything less.
He could go out and be unbeaten OOC (I know, absolutely an impossible thing), and crap the bed in conference for all we know. That was his selling point to be hired after beating ND...but it didn't work out.
I think with what Brad has done with MU already, he isn't afraid to spend money, however he's actually responsible with it and doesn't allow MU to go beyond their grasp.
MU, if not retaining Huff, would be willing to pay more to regain trust in the fanbase.
But, if you're going down to FCS, you're going to get a potentially very good return on a relatively cheap investment since the FCS doesn't pay as much as FBS.
It's the route I would go. I'd up the amount to spend to $1 million, but try to get a very proven FCS HC for a fraction of that, as well as their staff, then use the remaining amount for NIL or something.
My question...with the portal being as insane as it is...a new HC hire, does this mean those who unreasonably expected MU to compete right off the bat and win titles (they're all over FB), will actually be justified in their horrendously constructed grammatical rants?
I used to give a HC two or so years to get their players and have a decent transition of styles.
Year three the team should be starting to click.
But now, since a HC can literally buy a team and bring them with him to the next location and all...
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Agree with going the FCS HC route. Get an experienced proven winner, whose built a staff and pay them likely a good bit more than what they are making now. They get to move up to D1 and prove themselves. jmho
I would also pick a coach with a proven track record... But this is silly... Any coach who has had success in FCS is going to cost at least $600k a year to move up to FBS. Heck, the guy at Sam Houston State is making $620k a year plus incentives to coach a fledgling FBS team in CUSA. FIU, arguably the worst program in the country for the last decade, is paying their guy $760k plus incentives. Akron, perennial bottom feeder, $650k, etc.
So putting "the remaining amount" to NIL would maybe, at best, net us a decent defensive back or offensive lineman or two?
We are never, and I mean never, going to compete in NIL dollars. That's just reality... And that's why we need a coach that can get the most out of the players he can get in here. Pay more for a guy that can actually coach because paying for players isn't the answer for G5 programs.
This is a strawman argument since every head coach had to be a head coach for a first time. So therefore every successful head coach was once hired without HC experience.
The point is, show me where successful, top tier programs at our level have hired people without coordinating or HC experience and it has worked out. You let someone else take the risk because mistakes are too costly. Urban Meyer proved himself at perpetually bad Bowling Green, for example. Then still had to go prove himself at Utah before his big move up.
My preference is to go look at top, proven FCS head coaches. They are affordable and would have shown the ability to manage a program. They are also used to even less resources and recruiting leverage. Assistants from P4 programs, that have spent their careers with big budgets and name prestige have a big learning curve coming to an average budget G5.
You clearly don't know what a straw man (two words, not one) argument is, and I take partial responsibility for that due to using the term frequently without first educating west virginians on it.
A straw man argument refers to a situation where Person A argues against a position, while at the same time attributing that argument to Person B, even though Person B never made that argument.
In this discussion, multiple people have expressed that we should only hire:
1) A HC who has previous head coaching success, regardless of the level
and/or
2) A HC who has coordinator or HC experience at some level.
In response, I argued that having that mentality will greatly limit many potentially very good head coaching hires. To prove my point, I listed many successful head coaches who have never previously been a head coach or coordinator.
I argued against exactly what they presented. I didn't add anything to their argument and argue against that addition. I listed examples of why it is shortsighted to have the mentality of only hiring a coach who has been a coordinator or head coach. Nothing I argued is even remotely close to being a straw man.
What? I'm not sure you even know what you're trying to say. Their position is that Marshall shouldn't hire a coach who has never been a head coach and/or coordinator. My argument was that there have been many head coaches who were very successful without that required experience, thus, that mentality is passing up very good candidates. I'm
What is our level that you refer to? FBS? A mid-tier G5 program? A mid-tier Sun Belt program?
Regardless, I listed many examples of hires at the FBS level who had no previous head coaching/coordinator experience prior to their first head coaching role and did well in their first (and subsequent) head coaching jobs: Urban Meyer (G5), Dabo Swinney (P5), PJ Fleck (G5), Jim Harbaugh (FCS), Jim Tressel (FCS), Kirk Ferentz (P5), Willie Fritz, Sam Pittman (P5), Shane Beamer (P5).
If your argument is to let FCS programs take the risk of seeing if the guy is good as a head coach prior to Marshall taking the risk, then my point remains the same, as evidenced by Urban, Dabo, Fleck, Ferentz, Pittman, Beamer.
Again, what?! Urban took a P5 program (that's Marshall's level!) to success in his first head coaching role. Are you saying that he couldn't have had the same success if his first job were at Marshall?
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Go back to being a coordinator?? He was never a coordinator
NDSU, who is arguably the best FCS team still there, is paying their HC a base salary of $330,000. Their previous HC, who'd been there for 5 years and won 2 FCS NC's, topped out at $396,000.
JMU was paying Cignetti $677,000 in 2023.
MU was paying Huff $755,500.
...and you're going to pick the guy who costs more? You're also looking at crap programs, clearly overpaying their HC's.
Solid work...you think spending more on a HC is going to bring about wins but also claim MU can't compete with NIL...which sort of helps with wins (so they say).
Before NIL, MU's problem was HC salary and how low it was. People thought if you paid more, you'd get more. That absolutely has been proven false. Just as Texas A&M or anyone else who shelled out absurd amounts of money to lose 4 games a season.
Also, with the CCS coaches, it is talent that wins in the end...and I agree with you on that. The best talent for head coaching comes from there.
I never said MU is going to compete with NIL, but for them to sit around and NOT do anything, is a stupid move. It's also going to make the job tough on a HC who is going to need something to work with. I'd take maybe 3-4 players max with NIL money and build the team around them.
Isn't that how it used to be? MU lands some good (on paper) best player and everyone expects the schemes to be around him?
No different except you need money.
You commit $800,000 and take NDSU's HC for $600,000 base salary. Leaves you with $200,000 for NIL. Pocket change to many, but if said HC needs it for recruiting, he'll have it. You get 3 players from it, plus your existing team, HC will have some advantages before the first practice starts. JMO.
So I wasn't aware of your basic lack of understanding of what we are talking about here... So let me slow it down.
Yes, the NDSU coach is making $330k currently... If you'd like to hire him, the negotiations will begin at $650k minimum (likely far more) because his agent will tell you he is a better coach than those I pointed out above (Akron, FIU, Sam Houston State, UTEP, and so on). His agent will tell you his record is far better than Huff's and that he should thus be compensated better than Huff (which is why all future negotiations at MU will start with Huff's base salary and go from there). And the agent will tell you rebuilding MU's program is a far harder job than continuing to win national championships at NDSU.
So for the sake of your nonsense argument lets say we hit the jackpot and NDSU's coach is desperate for an FBS gig (he's not, and will have offers every year)... And he agrees to the same as we pay Huff now, $750k... If we have $800k committed to finding a coach, and we put "the remaining amount" in NIL that is $50k. That's literally one decent, not great, player. No better than having one of the local car dealerships give a kid a new car... Hell, even if we go back to your original example and we have $1 million committed to a coaching search, that's $250k left over. You aren't buying enough players to make a difference with that amount of money. It's not reality.
The shitty programs I pointed to above have all hired coaches in the past couple years. They aren't "overpaying" those guys, they paid the going rate to hire a new coach. That's reality.
NIL collectives at bigger schools have tens of millions of dollars to shell out, so a measly $50-$250k left over from a coaching search is absolutely nothing. That's reality.
MU should hire a proven winner, we agree on that - at whatever the market price is for such a person in said position.
South Dakota State paid their coach a base salary of 310K last year. You just have to take the time and do your homework. I am tired of letting boosters pick our coach, hiring a buddy or wishing some hot shot assistant with no real experience as the head man - take over our program and be successful. The processes in the past have failed for the most part. Sad thing is, I don't have confidence in Spears or the BOG to make the best decisions on the next HC.
Again, you try to put MU in the G5 with salaries then compare them to the P5 for NIL. Just stop.
I agree that MU isn't going to have the cash flow to get top players, but MU doesn't need top players if the HC is creative enough to win without them.
However, the HC is going to need something to work with, because removing yourself entirely from the trend, is going to set you back further. It sucks people like you and everyone else don't have the deep pockets to compete with the P5 cause ya know...poor, but it's reality for pretty much all of the G5 at this point...and the lower tier of P5.
MU can't toss money around, but they also have more than enough to get (almost) anyone they want from the FCS.
I think with Brad Smith the negotiation approach is going to be different than what we are used to, and frankly, MU needs to be creative in this era of sports.
He’s done a great job of fixing things that don’t need fixed while letting things that need fixed go on and on. Like cost over runs on the baseball field. Let alone FB being out of budget. But then again he won’t make the call on FB or MBB
He a feckless bureaucrat getting OJT on MU dime
Man, I am really hoping the 04 in your name is the year you were born, because your level of understanding is almost comically poor.
I compare MU to G5 salaries because that is what we are (G5)... We are not going to pay a new coach less than we do now. We are certainly not going to pay less than the going rate for other G5s who have recently hired new coaches. Conversely, we are also not going to pay a coach like Bama, UGA, or any P5 does.
When it comes to NIL, you're now arguing against yourself. I point out that we can not, and will not, compete with P5 schools in NIL. You point out that we should be competing with G5 schools in NIL -- We already do... Adding what amounts to pocket change, $50-$250k, because you saved it on a coach, means nothing. Paying players is not the answer for G5's (again) and we are already comparable with other G5 programs in NIL.
Brad Smith has been in business his entire adult life. He understands the nuts and bolts of hiring people based on the going rate of the position offered.
Hiring top-tier football coaches isn't like offering a random guy $14 an hour at Taco Bell to leave his $13 an hour job at Wendy's. As you move up in life so does your going rate... Im currently the owner/operator of a successful small business in North Carolina. If a Fortune 500 company wants to hire me to be their CEO, they will be paying me the going rate for new Fortune 500 CEO's. Not $25k a year more than I make now... By the same token, if we want to hire the best FCS coach, we won't be offering him $400k (because its better than his current $330k), we will be offering the going rate for G5 new hires (roughly $700-750k, which is what we are paying now.)
Not necessarily. Does paying a HC more money make him a better coach? Does paying more for a HC guarantee a good hire? No. However paying competitively or better for a HC opens doors to better candidates. In the bad schools cases it wasn't the salary that was dumb. It was their assessment on who that salary was worth paying it two.
If one guy invests $1M and goes bust and another invests $500k and makes money doesn't mean investing $500k is more lucrative than investing $1M. It means the person investing the $500k had better knowledge and judgement.
Paying career assistant coaches big money is dumb. Charles Huff didn't have a huge market. There probably wasn't a need to pay him much more than Doc was getting other than the appearance that we're paying competitively. Where we fall short is pay for coordinators.
We also don't have to may $1M+ for a good HC if we can get a good coach for cheaper. However we better have the money set aside in the even the guy we want isn't willing to accept our offer and has better offers he can take.
To your point on holding out money to appropriate for NIL is a valid point and I do wonder if we'll start to see coaches willing to take less pay in order to have more money to spend on player retention and recruiting.
The other thing that is downright out of control are buyouts. These school administrations are so convinced they've hired the next all-time great that they're costing their programs. Just look at aTm and Jimbo. They wanted rid of him 2 seasons ago, but could reasonably afford that buyout. Oliver Luck hamstrung WVU with Holgorsen's buyout. Schools need to be more savvy on putting in language to terminate failing HCs.
That's college football. Those writing the big checks carry influence.
Here’s who you hire as a HFC. Don’t listen we have to hire someone from Texas or a young guy etc. takes a 1-10 over ends up 6-5. They seem to excited about the future
lamarcardinals.com
Peter Rossomando Named as Cardinals Head Coach - Lamar University Athletics
BEAUMONT, Texas – Former NCAA Division II National Coach of the Year, and 2017 Eddie Robinson National Coach of the Year (NCAA FCS Coach of the Year) finalist, Peter
lamarcardinals.com
Yea. The G5s are never going to be able to compete dollar for dollar or even quarter for dollar with the P5 right now. What needs to happen to even things back out is these players start to realize they all aren't worth big money. So many of these players hit the portal and refuse to look at the G5s because they're convinced that they're 6-7 figure guys when they aren't remotely close.
You want to go all in on a guy that had one good season? Sorry. No. You go after an FCS coach that has had multiple great years and shown his ability to not only build a championship program, but sustain his success. At this point this guy is s flash in the pan.Here’s who you hire as a HFC. Don’t listen we have to hire someone from Texas or a young guy etc. takes a 1-10 over ends up 6-5. They seem to excited about the future
Peter Rossomando Named as Cardinals Head Coach - Lamar University Athletics
BEAUMONT, Texas – Former NCAA Division II National Coach of the Year, and 2017 Eddie Robinson National Coach of the Year (NCAA FCS Coach of the Year) finalist, Peter
So his winning percentage, at lower levels, is almost identical to Huff's winning percentage? They are a one-hundredth away from being identical (.574 vs. .564). Not sure that is the boasting point you think it is.
Not to mention, the Lamar turnaround you mentioned isn't all it is cracked up to be.
Lamar's 1-10 team played two FBS games and the rest were FCS teams.
Lamar's 6-5 team played only one FBS team and also played a game against a transitioning team that was D2 and a school that has 200 undergraduate students (I'm serious), has played football for two years, doesn't have a field, and is in the same conference as Justice College, California Miramar, Navajo Technical, Southern California Leadership College, West Coast Baptist, and Stanton. In other words, that's a three game swing just on schedule alone.
Their 1-10 team lost four games by one possession.
Their 6-5 team lost all five games by double-digits.
It appears to be far more the case of scheduling than it does some great turnaround.
Sadly. Many don't have the knowledge of knowing what coaches are good to hire and which aren't.
Now, HC's are seeing their positions as mere cash grabs. Buyouts big enough to basically keep them out of coaching, and they'll make good money being an analyst or even less of a job at the school itself.
Which brings me to the creative end for MU, by creative meaning, we have to find a career oriented HC, which might be tough, but someone who uses MU as a stepping stone and wants to prove he can coach, could end up doing it for less money, because they aren't long term and they know MU can't pay them what they ultimately want to be worth.
MU pays someone $500,000 and they give MU a 10 win season and SBC title in 3 years andpoof, are gone...then great.
The backhanded compliments for their next gig by fans on here and other places will be abundant for a while, but the HC set out to do what they want to, for the long term. If it happens or not, it's no longer MU's problem.
It's actually why MU could have better odds at having short term success from the next hirenif they're smart with how they do it.
His previous stop as a HC was average at best. He is not what we are looking for.
I'm not trying to be a dick, which is unusual for me.
But that's exactly what every single coach is who comes to Marshall. Nobody starts their career by saying they only want to be the Marshall HC. And if they do, and when they get there, a five year $15 million contract at Syracuse/Wake Forest/etc. speaks a lot louder than their $850k contract at Marshall.
Every single coach Marshall should be interested in already is looking at Marshall as a stepping-stone. They don't plan on coming to Marshall to do a good job and then not move onto the bigger stage for a lot more money.
I'm not trying to be a dick, which is unusual for me.
But your entire post makes no sense. Every coach who comes to Marshall sees it as a stepping-stone, HC or assistant. And that's not exclusive to Marshall. The same holds true for just about every school outside of maybe 15-30.
So your idea is to find one of these coaches (which is all of them) and pay them 40% less than what they could get elsewhere and teach them they can use Marshall as a stepping-stone (as if they don't already know that)?
No coach is going to leave a $250k FCS job who is doing good enough to get an FBS gig in order to earn $500k and hope he can succeed, when he is able to get $850k at other FBS gigs.
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