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Euthanasia

riflearm2

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Dec 8, 2004
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Anybody opposed to euthanasia? I not only have no issue with it, but I actually support it with some major qualifiers:

- certain age
- significant psychological clearance ruling out mental illness
- significant waiting period requiring psychological evaluations throughout

I am not in support that the person must have a terminal illness.

Interesting development going on in Switzerland with it:

 
Your kind is okay with abortion up through age 5, why wouldn't you be okay with murdering somebody at any age versus a certain age?
 
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Not a fan.


When you give a sick or injured person or mentally ill person this option it puts additional burdens on them to feel like they have this new option to lighten the load /become less of a burden on others. If you’re interested I can try to find it, but there is a fantastic medical ethics podcast about this I’ve heard maybe 5 years or so ago. I think it was with a Duke palliative care doc.
 
Your kind is okay with abortion up through age 5, why wouldn't you be okay with murdering somebody at any age versus a certain age?
This is somewhat of a dilemma for those with a more liberal leaning. You cant tell women that it is their bodies to do with as they please then turn around and say you have no right to terminate your own body if you see fit to do so.
 
No terminal illness? So what rationale would you have to get suicided?
Freedom of choice. Individual liberty.

My quality of lie has been terrible for six months. Each time I stand up, I feel like I am 80 years old. The pain in so many areas is ridiculous. And this isn't anywhere as bad as many others have it day-after-day. For those people, assuming they don't have dependents/loved ones, I can't fault them for wanting it to end. And assuming they are sane and it has been a reasonable amount of time with nothing able to get better in the future, I think they should have that choice.

Not a fan.

When you give a sick or injured person or mentally ill person this option it puts additional burdens on them to feel like they have this new option to lighten the load /become less of a burden on others.
Mentally ill would be excluded as was one of my requirements. I'm not sure how it would burden them: if they were weighed down by burdening others to the extent where they think they would have a way to end it, then they are logical enough to know there are many easy ways to end their life besides legal euthanasia.

Are you arguing that just because something is made legal that it would then open up doors for people who could do the same thing on their own? I don't see that. A person who feels their life is burdening others and is willing to end their life legally would feel just as much guilt and be able to end it without euthanasia.
 
Freedom of choice. Individual liberty.

My quality of lie has been terrible for six months. Each time I stand up, I feel like I am 80 years old. The pain in so many areas is ridiculous. And this isn't anywhere as bad as many others have it day-after-day. For those people, assuming they don't have dependents/loved ones, I can't fault them for wanting it to end. And assuming they are sane and it has been a reasonable amount of time with nothing able to get better in the future, I think they should have that choice.


Mentally ill would be excluded as was one of my requirements. I'm not sure how it would burden them: if they were weighed down by burdening others to the extent where they think they would have a way to end it, then they are logical enough to know there are many easy ways to end their life besides legal euthanasia.

Are you arguing that just because something is made legal that it would then open up doors for people who could do the same thing on their own? I don't see that. A person who feels their life is burdening others and is willing to end their life legally would feel just as much guilt and be able to end it without euthanasia.
I’m not arguing it at all from a legal standpoint.

I don’t even have a super strong opinion about it.

I’m not articulating it well, but the state “endorsing” euthanasia opens up a line of thought where people start considering it when they never would before . Our decisions are also shaped by culture, not just our internal thoughts.

If you want to listen more I thought these two had a good discussion about it. As I recall Prasad was for it, the Duke palliative care doc against it. They do get in the weeds on some medical ethics principles (autonomy, beneficence, etc) which oddly enough started after Nazi germany human experiments came to light (“Lebensunwertes Leben” - life unworthy of life).

 
I have thought about ending my life before. It seems like a way out of a hopeless situation.A terrible state of mind to think that taking your life is the right thing to do. The thought of controlling exactly when your going to die is a powerful thing to carry around with one's self
 
Anyone can kill themselves at any time or any, or no, reason. It’s kind of a big decision and unreversable. Only an idiot would want to make that decision easier and more convenient for the side of death.

However, I get it though from the left. It’s like woman and men can make the choice not to have a baby simply by choosing to not create one, but why make anyone actually responsible for their actions? Give everyone an easy out so they don’t have to be responsible for their own lives.
 
I’m for it in cases of terminal illness with low quality of life. I don’t want to be strapped to a bunch of stuff in a hospital for the last few months of my life with the alternative being denying a feeding tube and slowly starving to death.

I’m tentatively against it being used outside of that mainly for the reasons Carl brought up about normalization. I think people can draw a line between terminally ill and not securely enough that I’m not concerned about it in that context.
 
18. Little bastard steals a car at 14, it's off to the clinic.
giphy.gif
 
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Not a fan.


When you give a sick or injured person or mentally ill person this option it puts additional burdens on them to feel like they have this new option to lighten the load /become less of a burden on others. If you’re interested I can try to find it, but there is a fantastic medical ethics podcast about this I’ve heard maybe 5 years or so ago. I think it was with a Duke palliative care doc.
You are a cancer doc, right?

I watched my cousin, my age, die of brain cancer. Horrible. You tell me I have no chance of making it, I'm not waiting to end up like he did at the end. It's not about being a burden. It's about what I find acceptable for me. I'll do some fun stuff and family stuff while I can, but I'll swan dive off the NRGB before I waste away like he did. It'll be a nice view on the way down.
 
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Suck it up rifle. We know you're going through a rough recovery but we'd hate for you not being on this forum. You will get back to good health.
 
You are a cancer doc, right?

I watched my cousin, my age, die of brain cancer. Horrible. You tell me I have no chance of making it, I'm not waiting to end up like he did at the end. It's not about being a burden. It's about what I find acceptable for me. I'll do some fun stuff and family stuff while I can, but I'll swan dive off the NRGB before I waste away like he did. It'll be a nice view on the way down.
Hospice and lots of morphine, my friend.

Traveling so I can’t elaborate but I get it. And there are definitely similarities between hospice and this article rifle posts…so lines are blurred.

Why I said I don’t have a strong opinion but fall on “against it” as of now.
 
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Totally against it, but the law of the land prevails. Gods will sort it all out eventually.
 
], but I'll swan dive off the NRGB before I waste away like he did. It'll be a nice view on the way down.
I wouldn't. I also wouldn't end it with a quick gunshot. Why? It's inconsiderate to the people that have to clean that up. Can you imagine having to clean brains off of a wall?

Years ago, a direct report of mine wanted to hire a former sheriff, which he claimed was his dream job that he wanted to do his entire life. The guy was a sheriff in a rural area about 30 minutes outside of Fresno. Something seemed fishy to me - nobody would leave their dream job with a pension that probably pays as much as he would make at my company for his first couple of years, so I was thinking he was fired or had some other major issue (possibly lying about even being a sheriff). My HR department was useless, so I got on the phone to call his old employer - the sheriff's office. They confirmed that he was employed there as a sheriff and could only tell me that he left under good terms.

What I was able to discover was that when he was hired, he was never told that he would start off on the night shift as a rookie for the first few years. He didn't mind working those hours except for one thing: the coroner stopped working right when his shift started. So when there was a fatal car accident, he was the one who had to not only respond to the accident to investigate, but he was also the one scraping the body parts off of the road.

He said it was mental torture. He would go home after his shift at 7 a.m. and expect to be happy around his new wife and their very young child after doing some of the coroner's work. He said the final straw was when he had to "collect" parts of two children under the age of eight that were scattered around the back road where the driver had hit an animal and then hit a tree.

I wouldn't want my choice of death to put that on somebody.
 
I read an article several years ago where an unemployed single mother started a cleaning company that specializes in cleaning suicide/crime scenes. She makes good money. Law enforcement in her area got to know her and contacts her team whenever they need that specialized service.
 
I read an article several years ago where an unemployed single mother started a cleaning company that specializes in cleaning suicide/crime scenes. She makes good money. Law enforcement in her area got to know her and contacts her team whenever they need that specialized service.
There’s one of those companies around here and I see their truck going around sometimes, or parked in their driveway. Bless them for being able to do it but I never could.
 
I read an article several years ago where an unemployed single mother started a cleaning company that specializes in cleaning suicide/crime scenes. She makes good money. Law enforcement in her area got to know her and contacts her team whenever they need that specialized service.
That may be a bit easier than having to handle the body/parts.
 
My quality of lie has been terrible for six months.
------------------------------------------------------------------

You know...rich.
 
You are a cancer doc, right?

I watched my cousin, my age, die of brain cancer. Horrible. You tell me I have no chance of making it, I'm not waiting to end up like he did at the end. It's not about being a burden. It's about what I find acceptable for me. I'll do some fun stuff and family stuff while I can, but I'll swan dive off the NRGB before I waste away like he did. It'll be a nice view on the way down.
speaking of that...what does the good book say about all of this. You know some people say that suicide sends you to the bad place. But, what about something like this? Or if you jump on a grenade knowing you are going to die but, you did it to save your buddies?

When is that line drawn?
 
speaking of that...what does the good book say about all of this. You know some people say that suicide sends you to the bad place. But, what about something like this? Or if you jump on a grenade knowing you are going to die but, you did it to save your buddies?

When is that line drawn?
I’m sure my opinion on this isn’t worth much but at least the latter example isn’t suicide as normally thought of. Your intent isn’t to die, and you’re hoping that grenade doesn’t actually go off, you’re just protecting people if it does.
 
My quality of lie has been terrible for six months. Each time I stand up, I feel like I am 80 years old. The pain in so many areas is ridiculous

What are your doctors saying about a return to normalcy? I have a friend who has worsening spinal/nerve damage and it’s not getting better. He was, in no way, the same level of shape as you physically but it still makes you wonder at what point is the accident “behind you” and you get back to being your normal self.
 
@riflearm2

I’m sorry to hear about your pain.

I’m way out of my element here because I know very litttle about trauma or ortho…but I see athletes and gym bros talking about BPC-157. I did have a buddy with a bad ortho injury get it for recovery. I really know nothing about it though.

You were in amazing shape going into the accident. I wouldn’t bet against you. It’ll take longer than when you were 20 but you’ll get back to much better QoL the further out you get.
 
i'm not sure why we need a law
@riflearm2

I’m sorry to hear about your pain.

I’m way out of my element here because I know very litttle about trauma or ortho…but I see athletes and gym bros talking about BPC-157. I did have a buddy with a bad ortho injury get it for recovery. I really know nothing about it though.

You were in amazing shape going into the accident. I wouldn’t bet against you. It’ll take longer than when you were 20 but you’ll get back to much better QoL the further out you get.
What about his neurological issues? Will that return to normal or will he continue in the vegetative state that he has been in?
 
i'm not sure why we need a law

What about his neurological issues? Will that return to normal or will he continue in the vegetative state that he has been in?
That’ll be fine too, but I can recommend some good podcasts or books to rehab :)
 
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Can you imagine having to clean brains off of a wall?

It's a business they choose to do and they are paid well. Though it's likely disgusting, they get paid. So I'd say they're cool with it.

Dumbass.
 
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What are your doctors saying about a return to normalcy?
That's the thing- nobody really gives a timeline other than the physical therapist. Will I ever be able to bench 375 lbs. again? I'm skeptical. Will I ever be able to stretch like I used to? Doubt it. Play basketball like I used to? That doesn't seem possible at this point.

The thoracic surgeon is/was awful. I don't remember much from the first few days at the hospital, but I do remember him being rude to my mother. She asked questions to him after my surgery, and each question, he would say "and that's also a question for the nurses." They were normal questions that the nurses would tell my mom "that's a question for the doctor." After that major of a surgery, you'd think he'd want to see me multiple times over a number of months. Nope. Surgery and that was it. When I did make an appointment with him, he didn't do anything other than look at it and claim it's perfect. When my mom asked about things she read online (again, horrible idea) such as malunion, he mockingly said "I'm going to pretend you didn't even say that."

He's the same surgeon who never looked at a single x-ray after putting titanium on seven broken ribs. The ortho surgeon (for my collarbone) was the one who actually took an x-ray of my ribs and saw the issue. Even though my primary care physician and ortho surgeon said they were concerned about the inflammation, redness, and tenderness, the thoracic surgeon still wasn't concerned when I brought those x-rays to him. Sure enough, there was "fracture deformity" according to the CT scan, which is a form of malunion, which is what he mocked my mom about asking. The guy has absolutely no desire to do anything other than the actual surgery. And that doesn't even take into account issues I have had with his office: I receive bills through the mail, yet when I go to their site to pay, the site doesn't work; I had dental work needed to be done from the accident, but they refused to do it since they needed clearance from the surgeon, yet the surgeon's office wouldn't return their call nor complete the one-pager they needed).

The ortho surgeon is good, but almost two weeks ago, he was perplexed as to why I had new inflammation above the collarbone. He had me get more blood work and another MRI, but they came back negative in terms of what he thought could be an issue. So he really doesn't know why that area has so much inflammation and why it only started a few months after the surgery.

The physical therapist has said since day one that this will take a solid 12 months before I feel somewhat back to normal. The doctors never really gave that timeline and really don't seem to know for sure.

Overall, those two major areas have improved, but six months later, you'd think the inflammation wouldn't be so severe and the normal daily things wouldn't still be impacted. Just as bad, I have issues coming from them - my back pain is due to not using any abs and putting all of the stress on my back due to the pain in the front ribs. The issue on the outside of my foot is due to me compensating for the surgery/paint on the other side of my body when I walk. So the sheer pain has subsided for the major issues, but the overall pain has gotten more diverse with other issues.

As much as I love traveling, you know it's not good when I refuse to get on a plane knowing that it won't be comfortable for me. Over the last two weeks, I have started doing light jogging on the treadmill for a short amount of time, but it's uncomfortable.

Even though I start it on 5.7, which is a very slow jog, it feels like everything is bouncing up-and-down inside of me. I know that my kidneys/lungs/etc. aren't actually moving up-and-down like that, but that is what it feels like to a severe degree. After doing just a tenth of a mile, I put it at 6.5 for another tenth. Then, I put it at 7.5 for another tenth. Then, 8.1 for another tenth followed by 8.4 for about .05.

I’m sorry to hear about your pain.

I’m way out of my element here because I know very litttle about trauma or ortho…but I see athletes and gym bros talking about BPC-157. I did have a buddy with a bad ortho injury get it for recovery. I really know nothing about it though.

Thanks. I'll check it out.


What about his neurological issues? Will that return to normal or will he continue in the vegetative state that he has been in?

The only vegetative state you like thinking of me in is the eggplant, which is actually a fruit.

It's a business they choose to do and they are paid well. Though it's likely disgusting, they get paid. So I'd say they're cool with it.

Dumbass.
You're increasingly becoming a lot like 1988 where you bring absolutely nothing to the board.
 
rifle, I was injured a few years ago. You will come back. broke my leg, shattered my wrist. broke my foot where the big toe meets it. Went through several months of rehab on the leg and wrist. Had surgery on the wrist. You will make it back. I went back to playing golf and it hurt bad for awhile. I would have to sit in a tub afterwards. They were going to do surgery on my leg but, I already had two screws in it and my knee was already shot. they thought surgery might make it worse. I was 50 when it happened and not in near as good as shape as you. When I came home from the hospital I was hurting so bad I could not get out of the car. THe neighbors had to help my wife and they wheeled me in an office chair and laid me down on a pull out sofa. I thought I was done for in terms of golf, especially with the wrist. but, nope.

You can make it back. If you ever want to reach out, you know how to find me. You will make it back. Holler at me if you want to talk about it.
 
rifle, I was injured a few years ago. You will come back. broke my leg, shattered my wrist. broke my foot where the big toe meets it. Went through several months of rehab on the leg and wrist. Had surgery on the wrist. You will make it back. I went back to playing golf and it hurt bad for awhile. I would have to sit in a tub afterwards. They were going to do surgery on my leg but, I already had two screws in it and my knee was already shot. they thought surgery might make it worse. I was 50 when it happened and not in near as good as shape as you. When I came home from the hospital I was hurting so bad I could not get out of the car. THe neighbors had to help my wife and they wheeled me in an office chair and laid me down on a pull out sofa. I thought I was done for in terms of golf, especially with the wrist. but, nope.

You can make it back. If you ever want to reach out, you know how to find me. You will make it back. Holler at me if you want to talk about it.
Thanks. I appreciate it.

Like you, I struggle getting in/out of a car. And I slept on my living room couch for the first 2.5 months out of the hospital, and I still think it would be more comfortable than my bed.

The thing with me is the sheer amount of issues. Not just nine broken ribs; not just a fractured clavicle in five pieces; not just numerous facial fractures; not just brain damage; not just atelectasis; not just frequently tired; not just a leg fracture (which I still don't know where); not just the back/wrist/food issue I have had. It's so many different things that when a few are feeling fine, the others suck.
 
That's the thing- nobody really gives a timeline other than the physical therapist. Will I ever be able to bench 375 lbs. again? I'm skeptical. Will I ever be able to stretch like I used to? Doubt it. Play basketball like I used to? That doesn't seem possible at this point.

The thoracic surgeon is/was awful. I don't remember much from the first few days at the hospital, but I do remember him being rude to my mother. She asked questions to him after my surgery, and each question, he would say "and that's also a question for the nurses." They were normal questions that the nurses would tell my mom "that's a question for the doctor." After that major of a surgery, you'd think he'd want to see me multiple times over a number of months. Nope. Surgery and that was it. When I did make an appointment with him, he didn't do anything other than look at it and claim it's perfect. When my mom asked about things she read online (again, horrible idea) such as malunion, he mockingly said "I'm going to pretend you didn't even say that."

He's the same surgeon who never looked at a single x-ray after putting titanium on seven broken ribs. The ortho surgeon (for my collarbone) was the one who actually took an x-ray of my ribs and saw the issue. Even though my primary care physician and ortho surgeon said they were concerned about the inflammation, redness, and tenderness, the thoracic surgeon still wasn't concerned when I brought those x-rays to him. Sure enough, there was "fracture deformity" according to the CT scan, which is a form of malunion, which is what he mocked my mom about asking. The guy has absolutely no desire to do anything other than the actual surgery. And that doesn't even take into account issues I have had with his office: I receive bills through the mail, yet when I go to their site to pay, the site doesn't work; I had dental work needed to be done from the accident, but they refused to do it since they needed clearance from the surgeon, yet the surgeon's office wouldn't return their call nor complete the one-pager they needed).

The ortho surgeon is good, but almost two weeks ago, he was perplexed as to why I had new inflammation above the collarbone. He had me get more blood work and another MRI, but they came back negative in terms of what he thought could be an issue. So he really doesn't know why that area has so much inflammation and why it only started a few months after the surgery.

The physical therapist has said since day one that this will take a solid 12 months before I feel somewhat back to normal. The doctors never really gave that timeline and really don't seem to know for sure.

Overall, those two major areas have improved, but six months later, you'd think the inflammation wouldn't be so severe and the normal daily things wouldn't still be impacted. Just as bad, I have issues coming from them - my back pain is due to not using any abs and putting all of the stress on my back due to the pain in the front ribs. The issue on the outside of my foot is due to me compensating for the surgery/paint on the other side of my body when I walk. So the sheer pain has subsided for the major issues, but the overall pain has gotten more diverse with other issues.

As much as I love traveling, you know it's not good when I refuse to get on a plane knowing that it won't be comfortable for me. Over the last two weeks, I have started doing light jogging on the treadmill for a short amount of time, but it's uncomfortable.

Even though I start it on 5.7, which is a very slow jog, it feels like everything is bouncing up-and-down inside of me. I know that my kidneys/lungs/etc. aren't actually moving up-and-down like that, but that is what it feels like to a severe degree. After doing just a tenth of a mile, I put it at 6.5 for another tenth. Then, I put it at 7.5 for another tenth. Then, 8.1 for another tenth followed by 8.4 for about .05.



Thanks. I'll check it out.




The only vegetative state you like thinking of me in is the eggplant, which is actually a fruit.


You're increasingly becoming a lot like 1988 where you bring absolutely nothing to the board.
Sounds like you’re doing everything in your power you can. Also sounds like you have a good PT which is awesome.

A good PT, good diet, and good genetics (you have them, I don’t) go a long way.

I’m not a fan of chiropractors for back pain manipulation (especially not the neck), but I do think they understand posture and yoga-ish things better than physicians. I have had luck with home PT for minor back tweaks. Doing this in weekly or so has been a God send.



 
Thanks. I appreciate it.

Like you, I struggle getting in/out of a car. And I slept on my living room couch for the first 2.5 months out of the hospital, and I still think it would be more comfortable than my bed.

The thing with me is the sheer amount of issues. Not just nine broken ribs; not just a fractured clavicle in five pieces; not just numerous facial fractures; not just brain damage; not just atelectasis; not just frequently tired; not just a leg fracture (which I still don't know where); not just the back/wrist/food issue I have had. It's so many different things that when a few are feeling fine, the others suck.
I can’t imagine. Im sorry , this just sounds awful.

You’ll get there but I can’t imagine dealing with that. Gonna be a year - I bet your PT is right.
 
Thanks. I appreciate it.

Like you, I struggle getting in/out of a car. And I slept on my living room couch for the first 2.5 months out of the hospital, and I still think it would be more comfortable than my bed.

The thing with me is the sheer amount of issues. Not just nine broken ribs; not just a fractured clavicle in five pieces; not just numerous facial fractures; not just brain damage; not just atelectasis; not just frequently tired; not just a leg fracture (which I still don't know where); not just the back/wrist/food issue I have had. It's so many different things that when a few are feeling fine, the others suck.
that's totally sucks. hope you recover fully. we joke, but outside of a couple serious head cases who can't handle the banter, I'm sure everybody else has your best interests at heart, and everybody, again outside of those few idiots, truly hope you get back to 100%..

that bicycle put one serious ass whooping on you. :p
 
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