Gentleman, these ISIS scumb buckets have an American female hostage
- Thread starter i am herdman
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And that can be debated until the cows come home. But do you guys not agree that once we were there we should actually FINISH the job.
"Finish the job"?
The only way Iraq can be finished is to split it into three countries and provide security at the borders for eternity. Another NK/SK with extra borders. Sounds fun, and cheap too. But that does nothing to stop AQ/ISIS/whatever they come up with next from internal terrorism, they sure didn't stop while they were there.
And the rest of the Middle East would still be a clusterfvck.
The only way Iraq can be finished is to split it into three countries and provide security at the borders for eternity. Another NK/SK with extra borders. Sounds fun, and cheap too. But that does nothing to stop AQ/ISIS/whatever they come up with next from internal terrorism, they sure didn't stop while they were there.
And the rest of the Middle East would still be a clusterfvck.
I dont know what the answers are and I dont claim to. I was just responding to the others that wanted to debate going to Iraq in the first place.
So was letting the Japs bomb Pearl Harbor. At some point you have to deal with the situation at hand.
Tokyo, we have a problem.
The problem is that you have no issue whatsoever with us causing problems. You have no problem giving up any freedom in the name of false security.
You are hell bent that the government lies over global warming, yet believe every word they say about a boogey man on every corner.
Time and time again you say it is what is is and we have to deal with it.. Yet we continue to train arm and fund pieces of shit, and your silent.
You are hell bent that the government lies over global warming, yet believe every word they say about a boogey man on every corner.
Time and time again you say it is what is is and we have to deal with it.. Yet we continue to train arm and fund pieces of shit, and your silent.
I am just telling you the way it is. You can accept it or not. The enemy walks among us a d we are going to be hit.
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Really? We are still in the United States of America right? Picking up people just because they belong to or self identify with a bad organization? Really? You all crack me up... Then why arent we arresting all those nut bags neo-nazis running around wearing swatizas on their shirt sleeves?
Iraq is water under the bridge at this point. We quit....its done.
Currencies and trade wars are fueling even more of this at this point. Our complete energy independence would bury these terrorists groups faster than a drone at this point. Its a tough business/economical feasible position to take but I am starting to believe more and more we need to suck it up and keep pumping and distributing our own oil. OPEC is attempting to crush our state side energy complex as we speak. Build the pipelines and infrastructure to expand our own and keep pushing for energy independence by using our own supply and reducing the imports over time. Bye-Bye OPEC. May cause an even larger shit storm initially but it ultimately puts greater power back into our hands.
Currencies and trade wars are fueling even more of this at this point. Our complete energy independence would bury these terrorists groups faster than a drone at this point. Its a tough business/economical feasible position to take but I am starting to believe more and more we need to suck it up and keep pumping and distributing our own oil. OPEC is attempting to crush our state side energy complex as we speak. Build the pipelines and infrastructure to expand our own and keep pushing for energy independence by using our own supply and reducing the imports over time. Bye-Bye OPEC. May cause an even larger shit storm initially but it ultimately puts greater power back into our hands.
Economic instability isn't a thing that prevents terrorism and I have a hard time believing anyone really thinks that. It would hurt the governments there and to the extent they help fund terrorists it will reduce that, but groups like ISIS would flourish in a depression.
I would suggest that rather high unemployment rates in alot of these middle eastern Nations also fuels this as well as how we handled the Battha Party after we conquered Iraqi...
That area of the world will always be in conflict, it has since time began. Can anyone ever name a period in history where that region of the world had total peace. I can't think of any. Its not gonna change. We can only hope to keep them out of the US as much as possible.
I sure as hell don't want another full scale military operation over there. We can't win. jmo
I sure as hell don't want another full scale military operation over there. We can't win. jmo
While I completely agree with you on this, I will say that there is no way to say BYE BYE opec. THe reason there is no way is because of the very currency wars that you cite. The Saudis are actively trying to crush US shale development, and we have to sit aside and watch it happen. THey have a 2 fold agenda, 1) crush us shale, 2) force Putin to stop backing Assad in Syria.
THe House of Saud recieves blanket US military protection in return for accepting only US dollars in return for Saudi oil, thus creating the petro dollar. This is the same reason that the 28 pages were redacted from the 9/11 report, the same reason we look away from all of the beheadings they do.
We sold our soul to the devil and are paying the price for it.
That's essentially what I was saying. Terrorism is being funded by govts who depend on oil transactions. Terrorism conducts no commerce to earn their money through other legit means so how else are they buying their rocket launchers and guns? Naturally reduced $$$ from opec oil sales (through back channels) would create reduced funding for their ops.
Of course it wouldn't result in reduced terrorism because these zealots would like us more.....that wasn't my point. However, the expanded economic instability and inequality it would cause might actually force more fighting internally within their own groups and borders, taking their focus of coordinating efforts abroad less prevalent. Libs don't care about dirt farmers or goat herders anyway, so why worry if a few more "Arab Springs" break out.
Time to become completely energy independent and totally quit over there. This administration seems to think you can cut and run militarily in the region (besides sending in the occasional drone), while still being economically dependent on their main export (oil). Which is ignorant populace pandering.
(disclaimer: I am essentially advocating what compassionate filled libs and independents have suggested doing for years........FULL SCALE WITHDRAWAL from the region. Of course there are uncomfortable consequences to the US citizen for such a strategy, but that's never seemed to worry most who have demanded this occur so lets just do it and get it over with. Lets see what happens.)
I would like to see us withdraw as well. Would be nice if you could also magically displace the population (that's half ass friendly to us), and then allow the savages to gather together to fight, and then we conveniently drop a nuke or two over their heads.
Imams handing over the zakat, drug sales, computer crime, etc. Capture refineries, etc.
If Middle Eastern nationstates could no longer afford war by proxy, we would indeed see a drop in large scale conflict like ISIS is conducting. But it doesn't cost much to make a bomb or shoot up a market.
I didn't realize illegal drug sales and computer crime were considered legitimate commercial means???
Screw em all. We can't win. What are we trying to win anyway? We can't police the world. Let them descend into a further worthless existence. drill our own oil and build more windmills.
Screw em all. We can't win. What are we trying to win anyway? We can't police the world. Let them descend into a further worthless existence. drill our own oil and build more windmills.
No way Mich. I've been convinced. No one over there is friendly to us. Fvck em. Not every one in the world wants or deserves freedom anyway. Especially when I have to pay for it. Sucks for them. Its all about $$$$. So keep the $$$ here. We simply have no business being there. Even a bore like John Kerry could deliver that message without screwing it up. Better yet, international geniuses like Biden could easily decide this. Just keep him away from those burka clad hotties. And keep him from running around making 7-11 jokes until after he gets back on the plane.
I wish we could get out of the shi*holes as well.
But, let me throw in a kicker here. If we just say screw it then what do you do when the Chinese and Russians among others get in there have a strong influence on the region?
Why did the commies want Afghanistan? Because it was a plush nation full of wealth? No. They were on their way to splitting the region in two and controlling the gulf.
Also, remember free trade and shipping lanes. Why do we care about the skinnies in Somalia? Oh wait, look at the Horn of Africa and the strategic importance.
Just being the devil's advocate.
But, let me throw in a kicker here. If we just say screw it then what do you do when the Chinese and Russians among others get in there have a strong influence on the region?
Why did the commies want Afghanistan? Because it was a plush nation full of wealth? No. They were on their way to splitting the region in two and controlling the gulf.
Also, remember free trade and shipping lanes. Why do we care about the skinnies in Somalia? Oh wait, look at the Horn of Africa and the strategic importance.
Just being the devil's advocate.
These are just some of the consequences I was referring to that the "NO BLOOD FOR OIL" types insist on either naively ignoring or ignorantly denying. Its capitalism's fault this is going on anyway. But lets just make sure putting the screws to international capitalism doesn't impact the raise in pay I am demanding, OK?........................
The same malcontents that scream about us sticking our nose in "others business where we don't belong" seem to magically STFU when they are actually given the opportunity to voice a plan or alternative idea of what needs to be done. Suddenly the "we create terrorists" crowd have no real answers when we actually leave the goat herders to themselves to fight their own battles while people seem to still gets slaughtered by these zealots. The liberal economic folklore also suggests that simply stopping international free trade with all these regimes, will result in US jobs falling from the sky here anyway (caveat: as long as they are jobs that don't create too much wealth for someone and don't produce a trace of CO2 then they are jobs we can brag about in a political speech). So lets just go with it. Nothing to lose by quitting this charade from what I've been told.
Of course what I've been getting at is the correlation between the open demands for unconditional complete abandonment from the region, void of any further concern for long term political and economic fallout to the US, simply boils down to how much a price per gallon is charged at the pump and who the president happens to be in office and nothing else. Cheap oil from the Arabs is as good as the poppy being grown in Afghanistan. Who gives a damn about anything else?
Damnit! What is Comedy Central going to do without Jon Stewart?????????
Rufus, you leave out the policy choice of realism. We don't have to put boots on the ground to affect power.
W's mistake was letting the neocons pull his strings. On the flip side, one could argue the neocons planted the seeds of the Arab Spring...but we better not get pissed when the Muslims choose a government that isn't waving our flag. Remember when W pushed Israel to allow the Palestinian elections? They elected Hamas.
Either way, signs are pointing to the days of strongman governments in that region coming to an end. We better get used to the idea of this. Even the Saudi monarchy will fall in our lifetime. While I support us backing compliant strongmen, the paradigm shift is coming.
Herdman, since you are interested in countering Chinese influence, I am sure you have noticed the administration courting closer ties with India. India is a natural ally for us in the region, and doesn't care for China one bit. Your thoughts?
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W's mistake was letting the neocons pull his strings. On the flip side, one could argue the neocons planted the seeds of the Arab Spring...but we better not get pissed when the Muslims choose a government that isn't waving our flag. Remember when W pushed Israel to allow the Palestinian elections? They elected Hamas.
Either way, signs are pointing to the days of strongman governments in that region coming to an end. We better get used to the idea of this. Even the Saudi monarchy will fall in our lifetime. While I support us backing compliant strongmen, the paradigm shift is coming.
Herdman, since you are interested in countering Chinese influence, I am sure you have noticed the administration courting closer ties with India. India is a natural ally for us in the region, and doesn't care for China one bit. Your thoughts?
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I think India should always be targeted as an ally.
So, prior to 9-11 what were these muslim countries riled up about. That is really a pre-Bush list of events. I don't think you can totally blame bush. They were blowing up embassies, USS Cole, Trade Center bombing prior to 9-11, and on.
Countries didn't do that stuff. We very well cannot control religion. Without religion, Bin Laden has nothing to be worked up about. At least strongmen can do our work for us and keep the lid on that shit. Until that stops working, as I previously said.
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