Group of six?

[The Real SamC]

Proposal for a sixth group of five level conference, starting in 2024. Stephen F. Austin State TX (12K students/14K stadium); Abilene Christian (6K/12K); Utah Tech (formerly the unfortunately named Dixie State) (13K/10K); Southern Utah (13K/8.5K); Tarleton State TX (14K/15K); Austin Peay State TN (10K/10K); Eastern Kentucky (15K/20K); Central Arkansas (10K/10K); North Alabama (8K/14K). To be joined eventually by Texas - Rio Grande Valley (32K/14K when built).

I don’t see it.

 

[MichiganHerd]

Can you clarify whether the American is still a G5, or are they the 6th member of the P5, which would make it the P6?

 

[greengeezer]

Sounds interesting. Maybe we can pad our football schedule like we have our basketball schedule.

 

[RhinoD]

I can't imagine the big boys wanting to split tv time/revenue/etc with yet another G5 league... And I would imagine schools in the new league's footprint (essentially the SEC/Big12) would work to put the kibosh on this group of rag tag upstarts.

The only way I could see this being viable is if a new division is created... If the P5 broke away to their own division, the G6 was its own division and FCS stayed its own level, then maybe it makes sense. Essentially have NFL-light, AAA, AA, etc like baseball only using colleges in the model. That of course creates its own problems though, because you are always going to have growing AAA programs looking to move up, and bad NLF-light teams who should not be there.

 

[i am herdman]

I can't imagine the big boys wanting to split tv time/revenue/etc with yet another G5 league... And I would imagine schools in the new league's footprint (essentially the SEC/Big12) would work to put the kibosh on this group of rag tag upstarts.

The only way I could see this being viable is if a new division is created... If the P5 broke away to their own division, the G6 was its own division and FCS stayed its own level, then maybe it makes sense. Essentially have NFL-light, AAA, AA, etc like baseball only using colleges in the model. That of course creates its own problems though, because you are always going to have growing AAA programs looking to move up, and bad NLF-light teams who should not be there.

Writing is on the wall. There is going to be a split. My guess is these schools are jockeying for position..

Thr problem is the more that are added now cuts into opportunities for revenue, recruiting, and tv contracts. It will help expedite the split.

Conferences like the Sunbelt,, AAC, MAC, CUSA should vehemently oppose this.

 

[RhinoD]

Conferences like the Sunbelt,, AAC, MAC, CUSA should vehemently oppose this.

Absolutely... Adding more teams to FBS is not good for anyone. Unfortunately, the neutered NCAA has no way to stop teams from moving up. If they actually enforced the attendance rules they came up with years back (actual attendance, not tickets sold/donated/etc), FBS would be about 90 teams which is probably about where it should be.

Also, the other 9 leagues F'd up by not killing off CUSA last summer.

 

[The Real SamC]

The issue with a “split” is that there is just no interest in anything except the top division, whatever it is called, other than among their fanbases. Yeah, ESPN’s Gameday, will show up at some place once a year and in the modern age every sports ball game played anywhere is on TV or internet, but no one really cares, and with the NCAA denuted there really isn’t any funding mechinism.

 

[CamJoanBaller]

The issue with a “split” is that there is just no interest in anything except the top division, whatever it is called, other than among their fanbases. Yeah, ESPN’s Gameday, will show up at some place once a year and in the modern age every sports ball game played anywhere is on TV or internet, but no one really cares, and with the NCAA denuted there really isn’t any funding mechinism.

The good news is, at least with football, with the expansion of a playoff will guarantee the top non P5 team a spot in that. Hopefully a consideration for a 2nd. So while one side of this sucks, at least another side is good.

ESPN has to go to that 1 or 2 games a year now that don't matter, just to avoid cancel culture idiots.

 

[RhinoD]

The good news is, at least with football, with the expansion of a playoff will guarantee the top non P5 team a spot in that. Hopefully a consideration for a 2nd. So while one side of this sucks, at least another side is good.

ESPN has to go to that 1 or 2 games a year now that don't matter, just to avoid cancel culture idiots.

If the P5 and G6 split into two separate classes, the playoff format won't matter... That 12-team bracket will become the P5 playoffs, the G6 playoffs will most likely look the same as FCS.

I think we are probably a good 10 years from an official split by the P5 due to TV deals and whatnot being finalized right now. But these goofballs all trying to "move up" from FCS immediately may expedite the process. The Texas, USC, Bama, Michigan, Ohio State's of the world are not going to want to split the current FBS pie with more commuter schools in the southern US that offer absolutely nothing to increase overall revenue. In fact, they would love to get rid of about 30-40 schools that bring nothing to the table (Most of current CUSA, half the MAC, the bottom feeders in the Mountain West, SBC and AAC, etc.)

 

[CamJoanBaller]

If the P5 and G6 split into two separate classes, the playoff format won't matter... That 12-team bracket will become the P5 playoffs, the G6 playoffs will most likely look the same as FCS.

I think we are probably a good 10 years from an official split by the P5 due to TV deals and whatnot being finalized right now. But these goofballs all trying to "move up" from FCS immediately may expedite the process. The Texas, USC, Bama, Michigan, Ohio State's of the world are not going to want to split the current FBS pie with more commuter schools in the southern US that offer absolutely nothing to increase overall revenue. In fact, they would love to get rid of about 30-40 schools that bring nothing to the table (Most of current CUSA, half the MAC, the bottom feeders in the Mountain West, SBC and AAC, etc.)

Yes, 10 years AT LEAST, and by the time who knows what will be the state of affairs. Look at the last 5 years- NIL, playoff expansion, etc.. A 5 and 6 split is honestly the last thing I am worried about. And if there is a split, I would be willing to bet somehow the 6 still has an affiliation with the playoff.

 

[i am herdman]

Yes, 10 years AT LEAST, and by the time who knows what will be the state of affairs. Look at the last 5 years- NIL, playoff expansion, etc.. A 5 and 6 split is honestly the last thing I am worried about. And if there is a split, I would be willing to bet somehow the 6 still has an affiliation with the playoff.

Not a chance. Why would the G6 be included, from a business perspective? Why would P5 split the pie even more if you are the P5? You wouldn't.

 

[The Real SamC]

Yeah, if there is a “split” then it’s a split. The G5 or G6 get totally cut out of the bowl system and of the playoffs and from the money the P5 now pay them. Replaced with just another second division championship run by the NCAA which no one cares about. And really the G5 are not big enough to really justify a separate championship, so really they would just force everyone back to I-AA.

 

[RhinoD]

Yes, 10 years AT LEAST, and by the time who knows what will be the state of affairs. Look at the last 5 years- NIL, playoff expansion, etc.. A 5 and 6 split is honestly the last thing I am worried about. And if there is a split, I would be willing to bet somehow the 6 still has an affiliation with the playoff.

If there is a split, the G6 will absolutely not be involved in the P5 playoff... herdman and Sam are right. The P5 will be breaking off specifically to get away from the G6 (and thus keep their P5 revenue in house), there is no reason on earth to do that and then say, "but hey you guys can still come take up a spot or two in our ridiculously profitable playoff."

No way to know what college football will look like when the next TV deals run out in 2033, but from a financial standpoint the gap between the P5 and G5/6 is growing every year.

I wouldn't be shocked to the see --
Championship Subdivision -- The current P5 (about 80 teams)
AAA -- The current G5/6 (about 80 more teams)
FCS -- Stays FCS
DII -- Stays DII

 

[i am herdman]

If there is a split, the G6 will absolutely not be involved in the P5 playoff... herdman and Sam are right. The P5 will be breaking off specifically to get away from the G6 (and thus keep their P5 revenue in house), there is no reason on earth to do that and then say, "but hey you guys can still come take up a spot or two in our ridiculously profitable playoff."

No way to know what college football will look like when the next TV deals run out in 2033, but from a financial standpoint the gap between the P5 and G5/6 is growing every year.

I wouldn't be shocked to the see --
Championship Subdivision -- The current P5 (about 80 teams)
AAA -- The current G5/6 (about 80 more teams)
FCS -- Stays FCS
DII -- Stays DII

I think we are headed that way. Everyone is jockeying for position. The Big 10 and SEC are going to have astronomical deals and control a lot of it. Look at what they have added. At some point, the Big Boys want the playoff to expand. Right now they gave a token spot. At some point, they wont'.

 

[GoHerdMarshallYes]

Absolutely... Adding more teams to FBS is not good for anyone. Unfortunately, the neutered NCAA has no way to stop teams from moving up. If they actually enforced the attendance rules they came up with years back (actual attendance, not tickets sold/donated/etc), FBS would be about 90 teams which is probably about where it should be.

Also, the other 9 leagues F'd up by not killing off CUSA last summer.

I think there needs to be a re-evaluation of what constitutes an FBS program to begin with.

 

[CamJoanBaller]

I think there needs to be a re-evaluation of what constitutes an FBS program to begin with.

I would agree, however where is the line drawn? Don't forget we made that move too. Do we shut out everyone new from here?

 

[greengeezer]

Wonder what will happen a few years down the road when the members of the Big Boy conferences realize they all can’t be the National Football Champion every year? Probably have to have multiple champions each year to keep everyone happy.

 

[CamJoanBaller]

Wonder what will happen a few years down the road when the members of the Big Boy conferences realize they all can’t be the National Football Champion every year? Probably have to have multiple champions each year to keep everyone happy.

That isn't the case now, why would that change with playoff expansion?

 

[RhinoD]

I would agree, however where is the line drawn? Don't forget we made that move too. Do we shut out everyone new from here?

On that front, the boat was missed by the powers running college football 15 or so years ago... When FBS got to 120 teams they should have capped it at that number and looked into maintaining "Regional" conferences, 10 leagues with 12 teams in each league. Having USC in the same league as Rutgers is idiotic, as is having Maryland in the same league as Iowa, Oklahoma with Florida, etc. In that model the conferences would not be "equal" and there would still be P5/G5, but the glaring discrepancy would not be as vast as it is now.

In order to shut down further watering down of FBS, the only way to do it is legislatively (which the NCAA tried with the attendance requirement, but ultimately can't/won't enforce). If the NCAA actually showed some fortitude and enforced the rule where you must average 15,000 in "actual" attendance to remain FBS, the bottom 20-30 programs would drop down to FCS (where the FIU's, North Texas's, Eastern Michigan's, Charlotte''s, etc actually belong).

 

[The Real SamC]

If there is a split, the G6 will absolutely not be involved in the P5 playoff... herdman and Sam are right. The P5 will be breaking off specifically to get away from the G6 (and thus keep their P5 revenue in house), there is no reason on earth to do that and then say, "but hey you guys can still come take up a spot or two in our ridiculously profitable playoff."

No way to know what college football will look like when the next TV deals run out in 2033, but from a financial standpoint the gap between the P5 and G5/6 is growing every year.

I wouldn't be shocked to the see --
Championship Subdivision -- The current P5 (about 80 teams)
AAA -- The current G5/6 (about 80 more teams)
FCS -- Stays FCS
DII -- Stays DII

You are probably right. However the focus of evil in the sports world, ESPN, would really rather have about 40 teams, not 80. After the P5 do in the G5, they will turn on each other. The bottom feeders and field fillers in the P5 will get tossed out.

As to capping I-A (FBS) yeah, they should have an enforced, butts in seats, audited by some CPA firm, live gate requirement. 15K actual seems fair.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

I think there needs to be a re-evaluation of what constitutes an FBS program to begin with.

I would agree, however where is the line drawn? Don't forget we made that move too. Do we shut out everyone new from here?

There are parameters in place now, but the NCAA doesn't enforce them. For example the average attendance requirement. Schools like Akron are allowed to purchase their own game tickets to in order to maintain that requirement.

"Not only the building doesn’t generate matchday revenue, it even forces Akron University to buy their own tickets! While it may sound insane if you live in Europe and have no idea about NCAA athletics, the NCAA actually demands for Division I teams to have average crowds of 15,000+ in order to stay in the division. So in 2013, for example, the University of Akron bought 56,710 tickets for their team’s games ($10 each) just to boost statistics."

USA: They had to buy tickets for their own games

stadiumdb.com

Here are the other criteria for being an FBS school.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/AMA/Division%20I%20Forms/2010-11%20FBS%20Forms/Football%20Bowl%20Subqa%2012%208%2010.pdf

IF the NCAA enforced these requirements on schools AFTER they have been in the FBS then many would be forced down.

 

[CamJoanBaller]

On that front, the boat was missed by the powers running college football 15 or so years ago... When FBS got to 120 teams they should have capped it at that number and looked into maintaining "Regional" conferences, 10 leagues with 12 teams in each league. Having USC in the same league as Rutgers is idiotic, as is having Maryland in the same league as Iowa, Oklahoma with Florida, etc. In that model the conferences would not be "equal" and there would still be P5/G5, but the glaring discrepancy would not be as vast as it is now.

In order to shut down further watering down of FBS, the only way to do it is legislatively (which the NCAA tried with the attendance requirement, but ultimately can't/won't enforce). If the NCAA actually showed some fortitude and enforced the rule where you must average 15,000 in "actual" attendance to remain FBS, the bottom 20-30 programs would drop down to FCS (where the FIU's, North Texas's, Eastern Michigan's, Charlotte''s, etc actually belong).

Why. not have capped it at 100? We would have been saying its unfair.

Every mexican wants in the country, and then when they get here they don't want the next guy in.

 

[i am herdman]

Why. not have capped it at 100? We would have been saying its unfair.

Every mexican wants in the country, and then when they get here they don't want the next guy in.

Business is business. Major college football is a business. For Marshall it is a business. Not Marshall's job to feel compelled to be for everyone getting in. If it makes Marshall's situation better then good. If not, then it is not.

You can't be all things to all people. This dilutes the product and makes the slices of the pie smaller. It hurts schools like Marshall more than it does Alabama or Ohio State. Marshall should protect its own interest. They are not running a charity.

 

[The Real SamC]

There have to be standards. Otherwise, just don’t have divisions at all. In basketball, in football, and in all the other sports. Just proclaiming some smaller program as somehow now larger doesn’t make it so.

Marshall, back in the day, and most of the more recent I-AA to I-A transitions have been legitimate deals. However there are a lot of programs that are kidding themselves by thinking that they will ever be competitive, even among the G5.

 

[RhinoD]

Why. not have capped it at 100? We would have been saying its unfair.

Every mexican wants in the country, and then when they get here they don't want the next guy in.

As herdman and Sam point out, when we moved up it made financial sense and football sense for MU and for our conference (the MAC then) and didn't take revenue away from the bigger schools, who at the time were trying to grow the overall TV product of college football not working solely in their own best interest. Over the past 25 years we have proven, both on the field and in terms of financial commitment, attendance, etc that we belong as an FBS team (as have App State, UCF, Liberty and some others).

The problems with these goofball teams trying to move up now are numerous, but here are a few --
* A majority of them have limited or zero history football success
* They are in already saturated college football markets (IE, the south)
* The way TV deals are negotiated now, rather than in 1996, they will be taking TV time/exposure/dollars from the current P5 and G5 schools/leagues (unless they want to play their games on Facebook, and take a financial loss)

The door should never be closed on a program that is ready to move up, moving up... The door should be slammed shut on a group of no-name programs that add absolutely nothing on the revenue side moving up all together. The fact is, if the NCAA had any nuts, the more prudent move would be to downsize FBS and get rid of some of the programs that don't belong -- FIU, Akron, Eastern Michigan, etc.