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Has John given up?

banker6796

Platinum Buffalo
Jan 15, 2007
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looking at our recruiting class so far is just not very inspiring, little jumps off the page. So I went back and looked at John's recruiting history based on the Rivals database. I looked at each year and then broke it down into two groups, his 5 classes before the 2014 championship and his 5 classes after.

Year---3 star or higher---total signees---% of 3 star or higher
2010 - 9-25-36%
2011 - 17-24-71% (this was the core of the 2014 championship and 2013 title game)
2012 - 11-20-55%
2013 - 11-20-50%
2014 - 11-26-42%

5 year total - 59-117-50.4%, the 59 included 4 4-star players

2015 - 11-26-42%
2016 - 7-28-25%
2017 - 8-19-42%
2018 - 12-29-41%
2019 - 12-33-36%

5 year total - 50-135-37.0%, the 50 included 1 4-star player

So we have seen two things happen since we won the championship in 2014, a decline in the number of higher rated recruits and an increase in the number of players signed, which indicates that the number of props taken has significantly increased and led to over recruiting.

The worse part is that the vast majority of the high recruits in the first five years were kids that were eligible out of HS. In the last 5 years many of the higher rated players have not been eligible. That tells me that we just aren't fighting on the recruiting trail like we did early in John's tenure. He's just taking the higher rated players that others can't, taking them in large numbers, and hoping some of them make it. Since many haven't we end up where we are this year, beating the JUCO trail desperate for bodies so we can have at least a semi legit 2-deep.
 
Banker, I would have to question how anyone could stay motivated in the following situation: working full-time, in a position nearing retirement, with almost no expectations for performance, and zero accountability when you make inexcusable mistakes.

I mean, Hamdong is literally encouraging John to fvck up at this point.
 
I don't know. That would make sense for someone like Bill Snyder where you are a HC for decades, built a program and are in your 70s. Or maybe even for Solich who had reached a pinnacle only to lose it and get demoted back to the MAC. However, with John you have a guy who toiled for 30 years with no one ever giving you an opportunity. Not just depriving you of a HC position, but wouldn't even trust you to coordinate one side of the ball.

It just doesn't make sense. You get your shot because you have an old high school buddy who's willing to give you that shot, you cry at your introductory press conference because you have been wanting this forever, then you only bust hump for 5 years then just start coasting? If I were John I would be embarrassed that he let his fire die so quickly and left his buddy to take so much heat from the fans.

He's in desperation mode now judging by this recruiting class. I'm sure it will magically get way better on paper as he starts signing his host of NQs in February, many of which will never play a snap here or even show up to campus.

I just think if it takes you 30 some years to achieve a goal, something you have felt you deserved and earned you would have more gusto when you got it. Well, unless you have figured out that you just really aren't able to do it, then I guess you could get depressed and quit trying as hard.
 
Serious question...…..is it primarily Doc and laziness, the loss of some of those assistants in the early years, the continued weakening of our conference (looks like recruiting elevated for most of our former CUSA friends now in the AAC), or the continuing decline in our own FB brand? I named some negatives that may hurt recruiting but in this last five years we did open the IAF which was supposed to help recruiting.
 
I think the staff turnover from those years has hurt alot also. While Doc is/was known as a recruiter, so were many of his staff members. JaJuan Seider and Todd Hartley are hard working, high level recruiters. While he was older, many kids (or parents) also knew Chuck Heater from his past at Florida as well as older spots with Ohio State, Notre Dame, Washington and Utah with Urban Meyer. I am sure there are others I am forgetting but these came instantly to mind......
 
Some of you folks look for anything and everything you can to down Doc's intentions and commitment to MU. How silly, his recruiting efforts are as strong as ever; his team of recruiters are as active as ever. You may find issues with the results, but to challenge is interest, commitment and respect/love for the university is just silly.
 
Some of you folks look for anything and everything you can to down Doc's intentions and commitment to MU. How silly, his recruiting efforts are as strong as ever; his team of recruiters are as active as ever. You may find issues with the results, but to challenge is interest, commitment and respect/love for the university is just silly.

thanks for the input. so, in your opinion his effort is still there and his recruiters are active his results are just worse in recent years? so what do you attribute the results to or are you going to differ and say recruiting has been great since 2014?
 
I think we had a couple really bad results years leading to very few senior contributors on this year's team, but that has corrected in the last couple years leading to several key Freshman and Sophomore contributors this year. Clearly we have missed at QB since 2017 . This year is hard to tell as there is so little communications on the subject anymore.
P.S. disagreement doesn't make me a "homer", although I do strongly support MU athletics, regardless of how I feel about a coach, player, administrator, etc. They are all temporary, the school and its program aren't.
 
looking at our recruiting class so far is just not very inspiring, little jumps off the page. So I went back and looked at John's recruiting history based on the Rivals database. I looked at each year and then broke it down into two groups, his 5 classes before the 2014 championship and his 5 classes after.

Year---3 star or higher---total signees---% of 3 star or higher
2010 - 9-25-36%
2011 - 17-24-71% (this was the core of the 2014 championship and 2013 title game)
2012 - 11-20-55%
2013 - 11-20-50%
2014 - 11-26-42%

5 year total - 59-117-50.4%, the 59 included 4 4-star players

2015 - 11-26-42%
2016 - 7-28-25%
2017 - 8-19-42%
2018 - 12-29-41%
2019 - 12-33-36%

5 year total - 50-135-37.0%, the 50 included 1 4-star player

So we have seen two things happen since we won the championship in 2014, a decline in the number of higher rated recruits and an increase in the number of players signed, which indicates that the number of props taken has significantly increased and led to over recruiting.

The worse part is that the vast majority of the high recruits in the first five years were kids that were eligible out of HS. In the last 5 years many of the higher rated players have not been eligible. That tells me that we just aren't fighting on the recruiting trail like we did early in John's tenure. He's just taking the higher rated players that others can't, taking them in large numbers, and hoping some of them make it. Since many haven't we end up where we are this year, beating the JUCO trail desperate for bodies so we can have at least a semi legit 2-deep.
How dare you call him John! You must not be a true fan!
 
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Some of you folks look for anything and everything you can to down Doc's intentions and commitment to MU. How silly, his recruiting efforts are as strong as ever; his team of recruiters are as active as ever. You may find issues with the results, but to challenge is interest, commitment and respect/love for the university is just silly.

And some folks look for anything and everything to justify the lack of success with external factors. "Its always someone else's fault"

I like Doc, but I also am a realist when I say I think he has hit his ceiling. Maybe his ceiling is good enough, maybe not- depends on who you ask. But I don't see it getting BETTER than it has been.

Is the current state of affairs good enough? Just curious
 
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And some folks look for anything and everything to justify the lack of success with external factors. "Its always someone else's fault"

I like Doc, but I also am a realist when I say I think he has hit his ceiling. Maybe his ceiling is good enough, maybe not- depends on who you ask. But I don't see it getting BETTER than it has been.

Is the current state of affairs good enough? Just curious

Had he not recruited Cato and CUSA softened, he wouldn't have even had that run.

He got lucky, and that's what it's going to take to ever do better than he has been doing. The conference all but handed him the keys to the championship this year and he still fvcked it up.
 
Had he not recruited Cato and CUSA softened, he wouldn't have even had that run.

He got lucky, and that's what it's going to take to ever do better than he has been doing. The conference all but handed him the keys to the championship this year and he still fvcked it up.
And remember that Cato wasn't even his first choice during that span. So he really did luck out.
 
Some of you folks look for anything and everything you can to down Doc's intentions and commitment to MU. How silly, his recruiting efforts are as strong as ever; his team of recruiters are as active as ever. You may find issues with the results, but to challenge is interest, commitment and respect/love for the university is just silly.

I believe that you believe that. I also believe that you have to ignore the numbers in order to believe that.

As to him losing assistants that were good recruiters, who hired the coaches to replace those that left? A great sales manager can teach those with the drive and dedication to be great sales people. A great recruiter should be able to teach those with the drive and dedication to also be great recruiters assuming they aren't just a recruiter, but possess managerial skills. John always says it's a personnel driven game, you don't expect me to believe that he hires guys that can't do the most important thing in his opinion, do you?
 
I think that Ja’Juan Seider was a major player in our recruiting success early in Doc’s tenure. I have nothing concrete to back that up with other than just looking at numbers like above and correlating them during his time here. I also remember looking at some recruiting profiles around that time and it seemed like he was the recruiter on a ton of them. Hated to see him go.
 
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Some of you folks look for anything and everything you can to down Doc's intentions and commitment to MU. How silly, his recruiting efforts are as strong as ever; his team of recruiters are as active as ever. You may find issues with the results, but to challenge is interest, commitment and respect/love for the university is just silly.
He and Hamrick milked that retirment gig just like the old state road guy hiring his brother in law.
 
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I think that Ja’Juan Seider was a major player in our recruiting success early in Doc’s tenure. I have nothing concrete to back that up with other than just looking at numbers like above and correlating them during his time here. I also remember looking at some recruiting profiles around that time and it seemed like he was the recruiter on a ton of them. Hated to see him go.

Although he was only on Doc's staff the first 2 years, I would also suggest Phil Ratliff was a solid recruiter and assistant. I believe he was ultimately pushed out in 2011
 
I think that Ja’Juan Seider was a major player in our recruiting success early in Doc’s tenure. I have nothing concrete to back that up with other than just looking at numbers like above and correlating them during his time here. I also remember looking at some recruiting profiles around that time and it seemed like he was the recruiter on a ton of them. Hated to see him go.
2011. The class that set the table for 2013-2014. That's the proof. The thing about JuJuan is he was well known in the areas he recruited. He played there, coached there, lived there, and had family there. He was already welcome in living rooms. He already had an established trust and respect level established. Wasn't Davonte Allen his cousin? Hartley got higher ranked guys, but I don't think he either knew them as intimately as Seider or he wasn't vetting them out as well, because we had a lot of issue guys in his classes.

Since Hartley left I don't feel that the coaches believe that they can actually land the higher end 3-star and occasional 4-star to Marshall. Sure they'll offer, but I don't think they're investing the same amount of time and energy in them that the staffs headed up by Seider and Hartley did. I think they're going after guys they know they can get. That's why you're seeing so many commits right now that we're their first and only committable FBS offer.

As I said on the other board. There is a reason why we are getting pushed around by UNC-Charlotte.
 
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And remember that Cato wasn't even his first choice during that span. So he really did luck out.

He started him as a true freshman over the Florida 6A player of the year, how again was he not his first choice? He told everyone before the season started that Cato has "It." Period. Turns out he was pretty spot on with that.
 
If you do not see the outright back handed disrespect in the original posters use of the name John, then you are just blind.
Give me a break. It’s the guy’s given name. Is there slight intended? Probably so, but if the worst thing someone says about Doc is calling him John instead of using his nickname then he’s doing alright and he would agree with that I’m sure. And yes, I realize it isn’t the worst, but for the general sense using his first name is not disrespectful. That’s foolish.
 
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It is 100 percent disrespectful. You know it. Granted it doesn’t have anything to do with anything, but it’s still disrespectful.
 
Respect is calling someone by the name they go by, and you well know it. Trying to justify the unjustifiable is silly and looks childish. If you respected him, you'd use the name he goes by. I have a son who's legal name is William, given the name Skip the day he was born. If you know his name is Skip and you call him William, that is disrespecting him; pure and simple.
 
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Respect is calling someone by the name they go by, and you well know it. Trying to justify the unjustifiable is silly and looks childish. If you respected him, you'd use the name he goes by. I have a son who's legal name is William, given the name Skip the day he was born. If you know his name is Skip and you call him William, that is disrespecting him; pure and simple.


Marshall and the state disrespected him from day one. His contract reads “John” and not “Doc.” Clearly, it was a bad match from the start.

Sincerely,
John Holiday Must Resign
 
Respect is calling someone by the name they go by, and you well know it. Trying to justify the unjustifiable is silly and looks childish. If you respected him, you'd use the name he goes by. I have a son who's legal name is William, given the name Skip the day he was born. If you know his name is Skip and you call him William, that is disrespecting him; pure and simple.
If I were talking to Doc personally I’d call him Doc ‘pure and simple’. However, in the context of where this is, calling him John is hardly disrespectful. Maybe it’s intended to be and like I said, if that’s the worst thing someone says about him then he’s doing alright. I have no issue with either. I would call the man by what he wants to go by but I see no issue calling him by his first name on a freaking message board. Go Herd.
 
If you do not see the outright back handed disrespect in the original posters use of the name John, then you are just blind.
@riflearm2

I believe the poster known as "John Holliday Must Resign," has already addressed this with you.

Thanks in advance to you, Mr. John Holliday Must Resign for assistance in this matter.
 
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looking at our recruiting class so far is just not very inspiring, little jumps off the page. So I went back and looked at John's recruiting history based on the Rivals database. I looked at each year and then broke it down into two groups, his 5 classes before the 2014 championship and his 5 classes after.

Year---3 star or higher---total signees---% of 3 star or higher
2010 - 9-25-36%
2011 - 17-24-71% (this was the core of the 2014 championship and 2013 title game)
2012 - 11-20-55%
2013 - 11-20-50%
2014 - 11-26-42%

5 year total - 59-117-50.4%, the 59 included 4 4-star players

2015 - 11-26-42%
2016 - 7-28-25%
2017 - 8-19-42%
2018 - 12-29-41%
2019 - 12-33-36%

5 year total - 50-135-37.0%, the 50 included 1 4-star player

So we have seen two things happen since we won the championship in 2014, a decline in the number of higher rated recruits and an increase in the number of players signed, which indicates that the number of props taken has significantly increased and led to over recruiting.

The worse part is that the vast majority of the high recruits in the first five years were kids that were eligible out of HS. In the last 5 years many of the higher rated players have not been eligible. That tells me that we just aren't fighting on the recruiting trail like we did early in John's tenure. He's just taking the higher rated players that others can't, taking them in large numbers, and hoping some of them make it. Since many haven't we end up where we are this year, beating the JUCO trail desperate for bodies so we can have at least a semi legit 2-deep.
keep in mind Doc's contract is up after next season so Im sure this is being used against him by other schoools
 
Respect is calling someone by the name they go by, and you well know it. Trying to justify the unjustifiable is silly and looks childish. If you respected him, you'd use the name he goes by. I have a son who's legal name is William, given the name Skip the day he was born. If you know his name is Skip and you call him William, that is disrespecting him; pure and simple.
Seriously?
 
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He started him as a true freshman over the Florida 6A player of the year, how again was he not his first choice? He told everyone before the season started that Cato has "It." Period. Turns out he was pretty spot on with that.

To be fair, how many players have “It” according to Doc? I mean he probably even said that about Birdsong at some point.
 
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Birdsong was injured against Purdue. He tried to gut it out against Ohio to give Chase another week’s worth of preparation.

It didn’t work obviously.

But please, throw that guy under the bus.
 
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