Herd Knocks???
- Thread starter BleedsGreen33
- Start date
You sound moderately surprised that our current athletic department/marketing folks would screw the pooch on something like this... Lol
Is the game plan to release a new eight minute episode every 34 days like the first two averaged out to be? $10/month for not even a monthly video of eight minutes. If they released a video once a month, which they haven't so far, it would be paying $1 for about every 48 seconds of video. Voyeur cameras in college sorority showers are cheaper than that per minute.
Who is signing off on this project and editing it? Is this all-hat-no-cattle Spears? This is horrific attention to details:
First, you have incorrect grammar, as it should read "Marshall defensive line" instead of just "Marshall Defensive," which of course, doesn't make sense. Next, there is a spacing issue and inconsistency with the parentheses. The first one doesn't have a space after it, while the second one has an incorrect space before it. Finally (without even watching it to see how bad it is), the first episode is entitled "Ep. 1." The second one is entitled "Episode 2:."
Basic consistency. It's just sloppy all of the way around . . . every 34 days another eight minute video is released . . . for $1 per 48 seconds of footage if they were to drop an episode once per month. I don't give a shit about $10/month. I'd like to support Marshall. But I refuse to support/reward poor effort, poor execution, and poor management.
It's so hard to support Marshall with how sloppy they are.
Honestly paying for this is ridiculous. First they call it Herd Knocks which plays off of HBO's Hard Knocks which as we all know if a deep inside look into all aspects of the team. They're in on team meetings (limited but still there), player to player and player to coach and coach to coach interactions, also fans, and just an immersive experience.
This however just looks like a segment from the the Coach's show done every Sunday by Tim Martin and before him Keith Morehouse. I really thought this was going to come out weekly and be similar to Hard Knocks, but I should have known better.
Some will get mad at anyone criticizing this because this is "what we asked for" when in reality it's just another token effort for money. We're just expected to pay for it because it's Marshall.
If only they took everything you said and wrapped it up in a Dollar Tree bag… that would be perfect!
If I'm the Marshall AD, I find money in tbe budget to hire a professional marketing firm geared to sports. If I have to make some cuts in line items or not fill a few non essential positions, so be it. Jmho
Well, yeah, they're going to do what they can to get as much money as possible...considering the fans seem to find ways to want to give less.
This isn't even "what you asked for" because this is basically the reality of MU and college sports in general.
At least they're trying something.
And herein lies the problem... If we are going to be a legitimate major college football program, we shouldn't be thrilled with "at least they're trying something."
If we can't plan, and execute, that "something" in a way that seems valuable to our fans (consumers) then our athletic department should not do it. This "Herd Knocks" fiasco encapsulates all that is wrong with our current administration. It shows no foresight, lacks leadership, is incredibly poorly executed, and screams of cash grab from the few dozen die hards that will pay for sub-par content just because its packaged in kelly green and white.
Let's do better, or not do it.
Again, Marshall needs to allocate or find the funds to hire a professional sports marketing company to control and implement these type promotions/events/social media PR, etc. jmho
If we don't make a serious and well-organized push to engage the fan base, get new fans in the fold, we're gonna be in tough shape in 10-15 years.
Sounds all well and good. But the reality is these even cost money. Marshall has been busch league on these endeavors since before I left Marshall in the early 90"s. Using unpaid grad assistants or interns to throw this stuff out is their trademark, because no one wants to pay for it. A public relations team devoted to athletics at a school our size just isn't sustainable.
Additionally, when something is tried on a shoestring budget and isn't perceived to have worked flawlessly the first time, there isn't a marshall fan anywhere to say, good idea- refine it- give it another shot. Everyone piles on, says it sucks, says the school should pay for....and then disappears.
This is also the same fanbase who complain about the bathrooms...
Pick one...an improved marketing approach or cleaner crappers?
As expected, your response makes it seem so simple...but then again you aren't in the spot the MU AD is in.
Not having the responsibility to think with such limitations puts virtually zero pressure on you, and it also doesn't warrant any method of creativity.
If MU were to pay extra for a good marketing firm to push MU into the fans, you'd complain it's a waste of money because the coaching staff is horrible and would prefer money spent on them because "what matters is winning."
Then when/if MU wins. You complain at the game day atmosphere and how "boring" it is and why can't we be like Clemson or ohio state with what they do...and fire the band because they suck, etc.
The DJ was a terrible idea but it was a new idea. The shutting down of 20th Street for kids activities and live music was something that should have been done years ago. I don't know how well that has been received since I'm not in that area as much, but once more, it's a step in a different direction.
I am not a fan of this "Herd Knocks" stuff, but I can appreciate the approach to engaging with the fans in a way that is popular elsewhere.
Eventually one of these ideas is going to stick and will take off.
Is "you" in this instance referring to me personally?
If so, you couldn't be more wrong.
I would be the last guy to complain about hiring a proven marketing firm (probably should have been done 10 years ago)... I fully understand that our coaching has been less than stellar the last two years, but I also understand MU's pay limitations for such positions... I think our game day atmosphere is fine. It's not special, but its alright (I was all for closing 20th Street for the family/kids area)... Our band does suck (they haven't always, but since Covid it's been rough).
"Herd Knocks" has been garbage and looks like a high school AV project. It's not something we should be excited about. Which is the entire topic of this thread... Throwing crap at a wall and hoping "it sticks and takes off" is what amateurs do. It's 10th grade science fair. Our athletic department should be better than that.
How about the "enlarged" concourse area at the Joan. I hope it's not completed yet. What I saw last Friday on the West Lot side of the stadium shows black chain link fencing about 7 or 8 feet high, placed almost to the edge of the parking lot curb. It doesn't look like it's permanent, and the original entrance fencing was still intact. This does nothing to enlarge the concourse. There is still no "flow" through the area. It will still be congested. A true enlarged concourse would be like what is at Bowling Green.
If MU spends money marketing the team, the fans will say they are wasting money on that and should pay more towards a competent coaching staff.
If said coaching staff is winning, there will be demand for upgrading the pissers and crappers.
It's literally one or the other...funny thing is MU fans "just want to win" but yet, even that, makes fans not want to show up because the game day atmosphere is bad, they hate rap music, the band is bad, no Stewart's hot dogs, they won't forgive Hamrick for their season ticket seat moving, paint on the FG posts, etc.
But please...by all means...what would be your plan?
Oh and state the MU AD budget as well as costs for such ideas you have.
Not wanting to be insulting but if you have better ideas and can actually "wrastle up a budget" in relation to cost and what will be impacted...the floor is yours.
It's enlarged there because they never have crowds.
Hey, maybe we should cut the funding for competent coaches and just have a nice concourse for people to avoid since they try to avoid MU football.
Bottomline, hiring an outside marketing firm costs multi hundreds of thousands to million(s) $$ depending on the scope of work. The best hope is marshall finds one of their PR/Journalist alumni who has a firm willing to do some pro bono work for charity which fans still wouldn't be happy with.
I don't think you have to hire a firm necessarily; you can hire a marketing professional and have that person head up the department. Gotta spend money to make money. Yeah, we don't have much but I look at some of the staffing in the AD and think, we could easily get a marketing guru in here by eliminating some positions and combining others. I've said for years we need to hire a professional fund raiser as our BG director. We've always gone with buddies, or former girls' coaches who have none, to very little experience in this area - and it shows in our BG numbers, lack of growth. This stuff is vital for the long-term health of the AD. jmho
Are you high?
"Wrastle up a budget"?... Im the CEO of a successful business and sit on three nonprofit boards (one of which Im the president of). I deal with budgets in the millions every single day. I can tell you with confidence that MU can improve its marketing/public relations without creating some mysterious budget shortfall that you seem to be so scared of. Is there tradeoff? Of course there's tradeoff, that's why you have a budget, but its not some impossible quandary that college educated people in our athletic department can't solve.
As for people bitching... Grow up bud, that's life in America... Fans at Georgia, Bama, Michigan, etc bitch on message boards. It's human nature. Someone is always going to have something to whine about. The band, concession prices, prison fencing, ticket prices, coaching, QB play, it will always be something. The difference between the schools above, and us, is that the schools above have massive fan bases that sell out the stadium every week anyway. We do not, and thus need to grow our fan base as soon and as much as possible.
Based on my experience in dealing with PR/marketing firms, I would ballpark it at $12,000-$15,000 additional per month (just for football/basketball, not the Olympic sports, or university as a whole)... Of course the goal would be that our in-house people learn from the hired experts over the course of a one or two year contract with an outside agency and then when the contract runs out, you don't renew... Marketing is an investment, and the goal is for good marketing to lead to revenue increases and thus offset its cost. Could better marketing bring in $12k a month during football and basketball season? I have no idea. But the idea that good marketing is a funeral pire for athletic department dollars with no anticipated return is shortsighted.
Just because I know 04 is going to need a very basic and rudimentary example of how this could work... Here we go...
Lets say we spend $12k per month in professional marketing... Thats a line item expense of $12k per month ($144,000 for the year).
Now let's say that marketing is actually effective, and we get an extra 250 people to come to each football game (average). That is essentially a 1 percent attendance increase... At $25 per ticket (the cheapest ticket we sell), that revenue boost is $6,250. Now lets say each of those people spend an average of $10 at the concession stand (that's far too low, but a nice round number for this example). That's an additional $2,500.
$8,750 x 6 home games = $52,500 in additional revenue generated during football season.
Basketball tickets are cheaper, but there are three times as many home games, so lets say the numbers work out roughly the same... Another $52,500 in additional basketball revenue.
That's $105,000 in total additional athletics revenue to offset our marketing expense. Meaning the net cost of the marketing contract is $39,000. I haven't poured through MUs athletic budget, but it's doable. Is that example far too simplistic, sure, there are a million extenuating factors (are the teams winning, weather during football season, etc) but its completely within the realm of what's possible.
Twolf's plan of hiring a marketing professional to head up athletics marketing as a whole would probably be cheaper in the short term, but that's a recurring cost to go in the budget every year in perpetuity, so that position needs to be measurably successful.
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I dont fully disagree with you, but ultimately, it's more than just hiring "one person-guru". You need significant budget/resources/team of people along with that person to pull off any kind of effective strategic PR campaign.
BG has a completely different set of priorities and I agree with your assertion the efforts to grow have always been inconsistent-disjointed. That has always been a Marshall problem. Different MU organizations failing to work together to produce a coordinated effort to maximize revenue generation.
Shit. That # is well below what it would actually take to pull off a marketing PR campaign. Those appear to be "retainer" numbers just to have a PR firm available to pick up the phone and answer your call.
I think the common thought is MU needs to make marketing and fan/donor growth a priority. How they do that is on them but it needs to be done, budgeted for and given the resources to succeed. It's vital. If they don't realize that, then not sure what to say.
We can't half ass it and expect good results.
I hired a marketing firm earlier this year to do a regional campaign (within 4 hours drive approximately) on behalf of one of the organizations I volunteer with... We are paying less than the example. I upped the price in the example assuming they would charge Marshall more as a state agency/entity. Those numbers are of course just for consulting/services rendered, not materials, etc... We aren't talking about a national effort. Marshall's reach is realistically people living within 4-5 hours of Huntington along with the already curated list of "interested parties" (alumni, donors, etc).
My point being, even if it's double my example and its $24k a month ($288k a year) the expected revenue increase would offset some of that cost. If both teams are winning, and attendance goes up more than 1 percent (lets say 3 percent), it may offset all of the cost.
Exactly. Not the materials, people, or additional services necessary to actually implement/execute whatever the "consultants" advise you to do.
I'm not debating that something doesn't need to be done. The reality is, small market program, limited resources, and fragmented-competing priorities. IMO, until these internal organizations are able to cooperate and led to work together on a system wide basis, throwing $$ at a PR guru campaign isnt going to make what we are seeing put out better. It's a system issue.
What our nonprofit is paying covers the creation of the campaign by the firm contracted (the people, creative, etc)... What we pay additionally is for marketing materials (promotions/giveaways, printing, etc.)
We agree on this front... As does Twolf and others... A marketing person would be the exact kind of leader our athletic department needs to get everyone on the same page. As for the quality of what's being put out, it can't really get worse.
You're right in outside factors being a major issue for any attendance consistency.
A single loss caused the fans to not show up.
Any sort of event that goes on, parents prefer taking their kids there.
Anything below 50 degrees with a chance of rain?! Forget about it.
They'll look at that $144,000 number and ask about the bathrooms or why not hire a better coach, etc.
We still have idiots on here who are so ass backwards in their beliefs that not only were they against the baseball stadium, but they refuse to believe MU ever actually built it. Let that sink in for a second.
The issue is marketing MU, but it's largely the people not having any incentive to go. MU can't afford to spend on game day atmosphere to make it more of a carnival than a football game, and even with that, they run the risk of being terrible.
Successful game day atmospheres is a cohesive effort between the city, county, and school.
Too much pride exists in some who think they matter more than the other.
But it might be getting better.
I like your ideas, maybe they could work, ever considered sitting down with someone from MU and presenting them?
I am curious to know what a legitimate marketing firm would say what MU needs to do to improve itself.
The old leadership in Huntington actually believed the school needed the city...when it was the other way around.
You're absolutely right in that it basically needs to be a perfect storm of cooperation between multiple entities to show the people that MU football is the best option for their Saturday.
The issue is the lack of marketing creativity. Like a G5 beating a P5, you can't always rely on what you know...you have to use more trick plays than usual, keep the other team guessing and the fans engaged.
A big issue is the fans can't connect with players since there is no loyalty anymore. It's now about the highest bidder.
This is completely incorrect. An organization like Marshall Athletics can absolutely find a PR/marketing firm based in Huntington, Charleston, etc. to head a campaign for the stated range monthly.
Rhino's example set his base estimate at creating a marketing plan at $144k. By his own estimates that didn't include any addtional costs beyond creation and consulting.
Now... who is going to execute it? An internal team or the outside firm (additional costs) Who is going to manage the plan? An internal team or the outside firm (additional costs) This is exactly what fans are bitching about. EXECUTION. You can pay a top PR firm to create a campaign and continued consulting all day long, but if you dont have the resources to adequately execute and manage it (all additional costs), it wont work and we end up back where we started.
ALL costs: Consulting, Design, Implementation, ongoing services to execute; management, support (labor), other outside resources-media buys, advertising...my starting estimate would be in the neighborhood of $40k month. Again, I'm not saying we dont need improved PR/Marketing, just saying that papering over the MU system inadequacies with AD marketing money is not the answer.
Now... who is going to execute it? An internal team or the outside firm (additional costs) Who is going to manage the plan? An internal team or the outside firm (additional costs) This is exactly what fans are bitching about. EXECUTION. You can pay a top PR firm to create a campaign and continued consulting all day long, but if you dont have the resources to adequately execute and manage it (all additional costs), it wont work and we end up back where we started.
ALL costs: Consulting, Design, Implementation, ongoing services to execute; management, support (labor), other outside resources-media buys, advertising...my starting estimate would be in the neighborhood of $40k month. Again, I'm not saying we dont need improved PR/Marketing, just saying that papering over the MU system inadequacies with AD marketing money is not the answer.
And again, you're clueless. You are so far off that it's not even wise for me to engage with somebody this far out in right field.
You think a PR/marketing firm that Marshall would use, at minimum, is going to charge $500k annually to lead a campaign? How delusional are you? This isn't Ogilvy leading a campaign for a Global 500 nor even Grey Advertising working with a unicorn start-up. This is Marshall University Athletics, in Huntington fvcking west virginia, needing a marketing firm. They would very easily use a Huntington/Charleston/Lexington firm . . . they could even use a Columbus/Pittsburgh one and still be well under half of your quote.
Marketing firms don't just focus on one campaign for their entire company at a time. They don't shut down all business other than working with one client. Marshall has used one in the past for some of its digital work, and I believe it was Huntington based. You think that firm does nothing but Marshall for that year?
Reading comprehension is tough for some. I've out layed all the possible costs associated with my estimate. There are more costs associated with a PR Campaign than simply "leading". I spelled them out clearly. Where did I say "this was the only campaign" they would work on? (I didn't). Not sure what that has to do with my estimated costs.
Depending on the level of service and type of campaign, 400-500K for the year is not a crazy estimate for initiating a college sports marketing campaign....or any PR/Marketing campaign for an institution-company the size of Marshall.
Depending on the level of service and type of campaign, 400-500K for the year is not a crazy estimate for initiating a college sports marketing campaign....or any PR/Marketing campaign for an institution-company the size of Marshall.
It's not my reading comprehension. It's your inability to write coherently, "out layed."
And they're wrong. As I said, this isn't an Ogilvy contract for an internationally known brand wanting a multi-year, international, 360 campaign. It's Marshall University Athletics needing a campaign for their small region and alums.
You didn't say that verbatim, but in acknowledging that, it shows how even more clueless you are. For a small city marketing firm (think Huntington, Charleston, Lexington, even Pittsburgh), what do you think their annual revenue is? Yet you're saying that the bare minimum for Marshall Athletics would be $500k per year? Again, what do you think the revenue is for a small-city marketing firm that an organization like Marshall Athletics would need and utilize?
That alone shows that either 1) your $500k low-end estimate is extremely off or 2) the firm would basically have Marshall and only one or two other clients for the year.
Again, reading comprehension alludes some. "ALL COSTS" of a campaign were explained. "ALL COSTS" has nothing to do with the revenue received by the firm designing and consulting on the campaign.
I dont know what's more embarrassing. A conversation about terrible marketing by Marshall, or someone suggesting an option to change that is Marshall going cheap with a Huntington or Charleston WV PR marketing firm. I guess Charles Ryan would be an option out of Charleston, but anyone pointing to them as a cheap option probably doesn't know what they are talking about.
I dont know what's more embarrassing. A conversation about terrible marketing by Marshall, or someone suggesting an option to change that is Marshall going cheap with a Huntington or Charleston WV PR marketing firm. I guess Charles Ryan would be an option out of Charleston, but anyone pointing to them as a cheap option probably doesn't know what they are talking about.
I didn’t realize you were as illiterate in this subject as you’ve shown to be. Like always, you initially try to act experienced and knowledgeable about the subject only to then show your ass.
I clearly mentioned “360.” In marketing, a 360 agreement means all-encompassing. It means the marketing plan isn’t just in one route. It means they are targeting consumers in all avenues (digital, print/traditional, etc.). In those cases, a marketing firm also absorbs the costs. Your “all costs” usage is not only foreign to a marketing agreement, but it also doesn’t add up logically.
Marketing firms wouldn’t want (and would rarely agree to) what you’re trying to promote. Marketing firms are able to mark up costs for those activities, and that’s especially true for bigger firms that get bulk pricing based on their volume of business that an individual company would not be able to procure.
So considering that I mentioned 360, your attempt fails. More, even in 360s, depending on the scope of the campaign, your estimate even on the low end is entirely off.
Here, educate yourself on a very standard marketing term/structure since it appears way above your knowledge:
360 Marketing Strategy: Tips to Take Your Business to the Next Level
A 360-degree digital marketing plan combines traditional and digital marketing channels to reach a target demographic through numerous platforms. The strategy ensures that customers have a consistent and personalized experience across all touchpoints, providing deeper insight into customer...
Only a fool would assume Marshall Athletics would need an Ogilvy level to run a marketing campaign. What Marshall does currently is bad. Any decent firm would be a marked improvement. Ogilvy probably wouldn’t even entertain the client, Marshall wouldn’t need that type of agency, and a regional firm would have far better expertise in Marshall’s demographic and customer base. It’s absurd to think that a major, national firm would be necessary.
Who knew an outside marketing firm would absorb "ALL COSTS" associated with Marshall employees and staff also needed to be hired in the AD to work and manage the outside firm. Cool story.
The "production" for a new traditional TV spot ad alone makes the annual budget estimate of 400k reasonable. Not including all the additional content needed to be produced and managed for the digital up to date 24/7 experience. There isn't a firm worth a damn that would agree to do all that is entailed to get that level of service, experience, and promise the outcomes we are talking about here for 12-15k a month. If they say they can do that, you are either their only client, or they are selling you BS. Either way, Marshall fans would be disappointed.
By the way, Charles Ryan isn't an Ogilvy.
The "production" for a new traditional TV spot ad alone makes the annual budget estimate of 400k reasonable. Not including all the additional content needed to be produced and managed for the digital up to date 24/7 experience. There isn't a firm worth a damn that would agree to do all that is entailed to get that level of service, experience, and promise the outcomes we are talking about here for 12-15k a month. If they say they can do that, you are either their only client, or they are selling you BS. Either way, Marshall fans would be disappointed.
By the way, Charles Ryan isn't an Ogilvy.
What? That's quite a drastic left turn. Marshall doesn't need "employees and staff" to be hired just to manage the outside firm. Marshall has people already in place to handle that. When a company retains outside counsel to help on certain litigation when their in-house counsel is out of their element, does that company go out and hire new employees to "manage the outside firm"? Of course not. They have people in place to do that, as it is just another vendor. The outside firm does all of the heavy lifting.
You're so far out in right field that, again, it makes no sense to continue wasting time and engaging with you.
First, what the fvck does "a new traditional TV spot" have to do with this? Digital video is possibly the cheapest ad buy there is, as the production costs are low, email distribution is extremely cheap, and the host of the media is already owned/paid for
Traditional TV spots (aren't "new") have a higher production cost, but it is not even close to $400k. I had final sign-off on a $6MM+, 30 second Super Bowl commercial. We used a media buyer located 15 minutes from my office. The separate creative team was paid based on the increase of website clicks over the next 72 hours immediately after the spot ran compared to the average of the same 72 hour window over the previous three weeks plus the big-name choreographer they used for it. The director was paid separately. All of those, other than the media buy, wasn't even twice the number you quoted, and that was for a fvcking Super Bowl commercial. Marshall Athletics doesn't need anything even close to that type of production. Even multiple, monthly digital commercials would maybe be a tenth of the monthly cost you estimated.
You're a moron. Digital commercials, a targeted email campaign, billboards, online media buys, etc. don't need much "level of service or experience." Your estimate of a minimum of $40k/month would allow for three full-time employees only working on Marshall every single day for a year (which would not even remotely be realistic) and still allow for $5k/month for the intangibles after the company makes their 50% profit after paying their employees.
I never hinted that they were. I have never even heard of them.
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