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Nat Geo: The War on Science

GK4Herd

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Aug 5, 2001
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In time for our recent thread on global warming, my March subscription of Nat Geo arrived in the mail yesterday with a great cover article titled The War on Science. It talks about the element of doubt that exists among some on evolution, the moon landing, vaccinations, and genetically modified foods. But it spends a great deal of the article discussing climate change skepticism. A good article that is relevant to our discussion on the other thread.

How these magazines sell subscriptions I don't know because here's the article...

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2015/03/science-doubters/achenbach-text
 
GK, you have to admit that all science throughout history has been correct, right up until the time it was proven wrong. So yes, the current science on everything is 100% correct and will be until it isn't any more.
 
My problem with 'climate change' is that it's so easily transparent that data has been constantly manipulated in order to tell a certain story. Also, the idea that the climate we had when we began recording data just so happened to be the be-all end-all of ideal climates is laughable considering how much change has happened over the years.

I put climate change right up there with universal healthcare. Both, IMO, are designed to control human behavior and implement socialism.
 
All the article tells me is the lack of acceptance of "conventional wisdom" means you are unable to face the "truth" as some see it. Wording such as "a very high likelihood" does not make it true...especially when you look at background and funding of those doing the research on climate change. Comparing climate change to world being round is silly as photographic evidence exists to prove the earth is round vs flat.

I doubt very seriously that the author read the entire report from these United Nations scientists or bothered to search out dissenting views. And we all know what a bastion of credibility the UN has been over the years. For anyone to say the UN is anything more than a political tool rife with conflict of interest hasn't been following along.

That's one big problem with research: the funding for whatever the research is becomes a tool of bias for those performing the research. Academic researchers are especially prone to the problem of groupthink. Spending hundreds of billions of dollars on something in which there is zero proof that it would make ANY difference in the trajectory of climate change is just another example of politicains and profiteers leaching off the masses for their own personal gain or sustenance. They can't/won't ever admit they are wrong because it makes them irrelevant....just like Paul Krugman will never admit he is wrong about central bank interference and QE being a good thing for economies no matter what the evidence suggests. Japan has been trying his life thesis for decades and failed miserably. His answer is it only doesn't work because they didn't do enough of it. It's just crony capitalism and no better than bankers getting bailed out from the mess they helped create before and after the financial crisis. Al Gore is no different imo.

Real science isn't proven until you can apply it to a definitive end...ie bread mold used to make penecillian creates an antibiotic that works well to fight certain infections. Man made climate change will never be proven because there is no way you can apply that knowledge to a definitive end
 
Originally posted by banker6796:
GK, you have to admit that all science throughout history has been correct, right up until the time it was proven wrong. So yes, the current science on everything is 100% correct and will be until it isn't any more.


Most of the glaring examples of science being right up to the point of being wrong wasn't science being wrong at all...it was a worldview held without the application of scientific method that was being proven wrong. Discovery usually comes in layers over periods of time. Evolution is an example. Scientist are constantly adjusting timelines and splits based on new discovery, yet the overall premise has remained intact. Yet there are always those who try to discredit the entire school of thought because an excavation moved the timeline for when a particular specie was suppose to live in a certain region. It's kind of like discrediting the existence of the automobile because we were wrong about when the first tires came into existence.

Here's the deal with me. There is an overwhelming consensus despite the trumpeting of a few that global warming exists and that consensus believes man plays a large part in it. I can't ignore that. The notion that this is somehow a money grab by scientist is just a naive and absurd notion. I've read a ton of books and scientist are among the most ego driven group of people you'll find. They take great pleasure in destroying and disproving the work of other scientist. Peer review is what drives its credibility. The scientific community is so diverse and self-interest driven that the thought that an overwhelming majority is marching lockstep in some kind of funding driven conspiracy is beyond absurd.

I have a tendency to give greater credence to that overwhelming group of scientist ,who after all do this for a living and have the education and background that exceeds the general populace, than I do to believe those who are ideologically driven. And make no mistake about it...this is an ideological driven issue. Just look at this board for example. I could have predicted with 90% accuracy who would believe in man's culpability and who wouldn't before the thread even started. This issue isn't being decided by careful examination of the evidence, it is being decided by those who exercise confirmation bias to align their argument with their own previously held ideology. To me the fact that this falls along party lines so distinctly that people are being guided more by their investment ingle outcome then they are the evidence. Fault goes both ways.
 
Chris...only a small percentage of the scientist that subscribe to anthropogenic global warming even receive funding for it. Where I agree that with those that do, money can influence their outcomes, but that is happening on both sides. The Harvard prof who was one of the most often quoted scientific deniers was receiving large amounts of money from the oil industry. Remember when the tobacco lobby tried to discredit the scientific evidence for the negative health effects of smoking back in the 60s? They paraded a few scientist around who discredited the majority and planted the seed of doubt in the public. I have no idea who is right, but I do believe it's naive to think that an overwhelming belief in a science community that spans hundreds of countries and thousands of scientist with different political and self interest is somehow an issue of sustaining funding.
 
The war on science is in part being waged by scientists themselves. When they become so bent on pushing a view that they subvert the scientific process itself by injecting their own biases and forcing them on people, they do themselves no favors. You mention letting the scientific method play out but scientists themselves are jumping the gun on things like evolution, claiming them as 100% fact when they remain unproven theory. When you formulate a hypothesis and begin to test that hypothesis, it becomes a theory. Once proven to be 100% incontrovertible, that theory then becomes a law. Evolution continues to be a theory but scientists treat it as a law and that sets them up for failure by doing this. Even in school, teachers attempt to teach Evolution as law rather than the theory that it is.

I believe 100% in natural selection and variation in species as you can easily see this play out in our natural world. There are many species that should be poster children for evolution like the coelacanth but you rarely hear about them. Why? Because they in fact don't support evolution. The coelacanth disappeared from the fossil record 65 million years ago. They were brought into the modern world in 1938 when one was caught off the coast of Madagascar. The species is relatively unchanged, with the exception of alterations you would expect to see with natural selection. Also consider the fossil record. They say that likely less than 1% of organisms that die become fossils. Of that 1%, we have only found a fraction of that. Statistically, what does that say about the conclusion that you draw based on having less than 1% of the evidence? This is why the timelines are so unstable and what makes it difficult to say things evolved in a certain way.

It's the same thing with climate change. Ice core sample show the great variation in our climate. The world naturally goes into warming and cooling phases. In the 1970s, we were entering a slight cooling phase and scientists were certain we we heading into a "little ice age." There is also data from ice cores etc that suggest that higher CO2 levels accompanied cooler temps and vice versa so who's right and who's wrong? Let the data and science play out rather than each side trying to manipulate the data to say what they want. That's where the problem begins. Here's a nice link with some good graphics in the comments section.

This post was edited on 2/22 11:07 PM by TS1138

Warmer 3,000-5,000 years ago.
 
"The scientific community is so diverse and self-interest driven that the thought that an overwhelming majority is marching lockstep in some kind of funding driven conspiracy is beyond absurd."



Sorry GK. When preserving/securing $$$$ for a job, EGO, and "consensus driven credibility".........its quite easy to fall in "lockstep". Not absurd in the least. Rarely is it conspiracy driven. Almost always basic human nature rooted in some fear of....(insert "loss" of your choice)
 
I don't totally disagree with that Raleigh but the type of consensus we have on global warming would be near impossible even WITH the prospects that these scientist are falling in line with some type of fear as the root. There is just too much recognition associated with being right on an issue. If there were any significant amount of data countering the global warming argument there would be a much larger contingent of naysayers.

Skeptical Science conducted a survey of over 12,000 peer reviewed abstracts submitted from 1991 to 2011 and discovered that 97% of the abstracts held the view that man had culpability in global warming. If you know anything about the peer review process is that it is exceedingly stringent. To come up with a consensus of 97% is a statistic that is just too overwhelming to be ignored as the natural tendencies for a community to align for ANY reason.
From my vantage point this has to be taken seriously. And from my vantage point, those who don't take it seriously in spite of the overwhelming consensus do so because they are protecting their ideological beliefs. The alignment down the party line makes it hard to believe differently.
 
By the way...awesome discussion. Not one person has been called a moron.
smile.r191677.gif
 
Originally posted by GK4Herd:
.

There is just too much recognition associated with being right on an issue. If there were any significant amount of data countering the global warming argument there would be a much larger contingent of naysayers.


Your first sentence is quite poignant. If the majority of the $ goes to the consensus of scientist and businesses that are labeled "right" on the issue of man made climate change, undoubtedly that will be where the majority will exist. Again, to ignore the facts that this particular "science" is any different from any other industry or business trend of the times, where $$$ (or the loss of it) is the motivator is very illogical. Just as "Global Warming" marketing had to evolve and be "repackaged" due to change (less fearful public perception) as every product or trend does. So too will this one, as the "right" paradigms shifts to another $$$$ making, influential, trendy, ("right") science.

The number of accepted peer reviewed scientific abstracts that have later been shown to be less than accurate over the years are countless. I am specifically referring to medical and biological sciences in this case, but science nonetheless. Yet, even with all this new knowledge and ability gained, $$$trillions spent, many human conditions are unable to be "altered" from what mother nature intends through her natural evolution.

I see nothing ideological about not completely believing that man has obtained the power (within the last 200 years), to irreparably alter the climate of a billion year old planet (which science, has shown, changes, uncontrollably regardless of man's existence) ? What is it really? Is it that man figured out how to control flight, space exploration, seamless communications with someone on the other side of the planet, began mapping genetics, ability to carry a computer in our pants pocket? What's left for (im)mortal beings to accomplish? Climate/Weather (control) that saves us from ourselves???.....Boom! The next growth industry.........

Think of the EGO of man in developing such a theory and the money and power granted to those that automatically prove this "right" as it is currently becoming mandated to be done around the world. Makes me consider selling windmills. The truly indoctrinated "better safe than sorry" believers will undoubtedly leave this planet's climate different than they found it. As all humankind did before them for millions of years. They just didn't have the hubris (or smartphones) which told them....."YOU controlled it".
 
Originally posted by GK4Herd:

Skeptical Science conducted a survey of over 12,000 peer reviewed abstracts submitted from 1991 to 2011 and discovered that 97% of the abstracts held the view that man had culpability in global warming. If you know anything about the peer review process is that it is exceedingly stringent. To come up with a consensus of 97% is a statistic that is just too overwhelming to be ignored as the natural tendencies for a community to align for ANY reason.

From my vantage point this has to be taken seriously. And from my vantage point, those who don't take it seriously in spite of the overwhelming consensus do so because they are protecting their ideological beliefs. The alignment down the party line makes it hard to believe differently.
GK, you know I respect you and admire you for many things, esp. your love and passion for science but you may want to take a step or two back away from the Skeptical Science survey and what THEY say the survey says. What you have stated above (in bold) is NOT what Skeptical Science really said about its "survey" (and yet have been very slow to correct the misinterpretations of what the survey represents).

In its own abstract, SS says that 97% of the abstracts THAT hold a view of AGW agree on the cause. However, only 32% of the 12,000 "abstracts" surveyed actually HOLD such a view, so 97% of approximately 4000 (abstracts) is the aggregate number (about 3725 abstracts out of 12,000, or 31% of the abstracts reviewed). That is hardly a consensus (not even sure it would qualify as a plurality). In addition, SS (and fellow-thinkers) have let the 97% of 12000 abstracts reviewed number float in the ether without self-correction or quantification. Moreover, as Prof. Tol (at the Guardian editorial link below) makes note, science has been wrong many times when consensus suggested the wrong result. As I have pointed out several times, as but one example, scientist Alfred Wegener proposed the continental drift (pangaea) theory, which was widely ridiculed and dismissed as nonsense because the consensus was the earth was permanently fixed. 20 years after Wegener's death and the "science" finally came around to his theory.

Moreover, there are several professors that had their publications characterized as favorable to AGW that have publicly stated that such categorization was a mischaracterization of their work (whether that was intentional or a manifestation of the word-search/cursory review of the abstract alone is not entirely clear). Although it is notable that innocent errors (or ones inherent in a flawed methodology) should result in errors in both directions (over and under - inclusiveness), yet, the reported errors with Cook et al.'s methodology is one of over-inclusiveness that favors SS's overarching position. One professor that has taken SS to task, Richard Tol of Sussex Univ., published an article in rebuttal (here) that calls not only the SS's "survey" into question but also the IPCC structural issues. The Guardian editorial is well worth the read.

Finally, also important are the criticisms of the methodology used (which was term-searching of the abstract only followed by a rather cursory review by non-expert searchers). In the legal world, because much of litigation discovery is now electronic (because of e-mail and electronically saved files), the courts are moving away from word/term-searching models because they are highly inefficient and ineffective, usually yielding significant percentages of over-inclusive and repetitive information and omission of critical information, and instead have went toward predicative coding and other similar processes. Insofar as a review of academic articles (and not solely the abstract) has value for such an endeavor, getting out of the word-searching arena and into predicative coding would prove somewhat useful.
 
Originally posted by TS1138:
The war on science is in part being waged by scientists themselves. When they become so bent on pushing a view that they subvert the scientific process itself by injecting their own biases and forcing them on people, they do themselves no favors. You mention letting the scientific method play out but scientists themselves are jumping the gun on things like evolution, claiming them as 100% fact when they remain unproven theory. When you formulate a hypothesis and begin to test that hypothesis, it becomes a theory. Once proven to be 100% incontrovertible, that theory then becomes a law. Evolution continues to be a theory but scientists treat it as a law and that sets them up for failure by doing this. Even in school, teachers attempt to teach Evolution as law rather than the theory that it is.
You have no clue at all what you speak of.

A theory is much much stronger than a law.
 
Penn that's the problem with scientist trying to explain things to the average lay person. Most people hear theory and they think not yet proven.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Originally posted by banker6796:
GK or Olen, your thoughts on this article?
Shows curbing CO2 emissions may not be enough. Even if we maintain CO2 levels at our current level, history shows us the consequences.
 
More interested in the article from two other angles.

First, the 11 degree difference in temperature during periods of similarly high CO2, second, how did the CO2 levels get so high the first time without the presence of man.
 
Originally posted by banker6796:
More interested in the article from two other angles.

First, the 11 degree difference in temperature during periods of similarly high CO2, second, how did the CO2 levels get so high the first time without the presence of man.
#1: lag, we have released millions of years worth of CO2 in just 200 years. Buffer systems like the oceans prevent the temperatures from rising to the levels you see 800,000 years ago. Some scientists believe the lag is so great that even curbing CO2 emissions now wouldn't stop the train that is going to hit us.

#2: Volcanoes
 
Originally posted by banker6796:
More interested in the article from two other angles.

First, the 11 degree difference in temperature during periods of similarly high CO2, second, how did the CO2 levels get so high the first time without the presence of man.
Apologies - as a slave to technology I am currently being hamstrung by my technology with laptops failing and thumb-typing on a smartphone simply too annoying to attempt. :)

My understated-take for the time-being is that these are not really two angles but two manifestations of the same angle: solar activity. Insofar as the data can be trusted (for our purposes here, no reason to gripe on that particular issue at the moment) regarding the 11 degree difference and the higher concentration of molecular carbon dioxide, I am assuming that someone has similarly extrapolated solar activity to the same point, and if so, my assertion is that there was increased solar activity at or near this same point in the past, driving the temperature higher and increasing the concentration of molecular carbon dioxide.
 
Thank you on the clarifying comments on the term theory Penn. I've gotten the "theory" comments so many times I've tired of arguing it. The term is very misunderstood when applied to science. Here's the best explanation I've found on it....


"This is an issue which often confuses the general public, as the two words, theory and law, have very different common meanings. But in science, their meanings are very similar. A theory is an explanation which is backed by "a considerable body of evidence," while a law is a set of regularities expressed in a "mathematical statement." This is why Newton's Laws of Motion are referred to as laws and not theories. They are expressed with simple equations (like f = ma for his 2nd Law of Motion). Evolution, and most of Biology, cannot be expressed in a concise mathematical equation, so it is referred to as a theory. A scientific law is not "better" or "more accurate" than a scientific theory. A law explains what will happen under certain circumstances, while a theory explains how it happens."
 
Olen, everything I've read so far discards the notion of solar activity as a factor in present day warming. I'm not sure about the past though.
 
Originally posted by GK4Herd:
Olen, everything I've read so far discards the notion of solar activity as a factor in present day warming. I'm not sure about the past though.
So, for the present day (*waving the hand*) these aren't the droids we are looking for, but in the past, these could be the droids we are looking for? Seems inconsistent.
 
Yeah, I was going to bring up solar activity, but figured GK would shoot it down pretty quick. GK, I am interested in your thoughts on how CO2 got so high 800,000 years ago. I saw the earlier volcano comment, but have been told that volcanos just don't have that kind of clout in the environment.
 
As best I recall, the word science come from the Latin Scienter, to know. It is a way of coming to know something. It is inductive in nature, thus everything one learns as a scientist is only probable. Nothing is certain. Science is not a body of knowledge and also should not be confused with technology. However, it is through science that we have gained most of our knowledge and technology. Our fund of knowledge has grown slowly. In my mind, it is a tight spiral upward--so tight that unless looked at from afar it appears to be going around in a circle and not growing at all.

The idea that there is a war on science is nonsense. There is a war on ideas, especially ideas that might flatten our pocketbooks or challenge our nonsensical beliefs. There always has been such a war and there always will be. We're human. And some of us are not very bright.
 
Banker, I'm not ignoring you. I'll respond to your question but it might be this evening or tomorrow before I have the time to answer thoughtfully.
 
I'll take a stab at it, banker. Simply put, today's level of volcanic activity is nothing compared to certain periods of prehistoric volcanic activity. There was some intense balsatic activity long ago, for sure. That kind of activity would also release far less of the cooling stuff (ash, soot, etc) than our modern Pilinean activity.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 
Originally posted by Penn2moss:
even curbing CO2 emissions now wouldn't stop the train that is going to hit us
Yep, we're all gonna get old and eventually die. Even though I'm OK with it now, I imagine when it gets closer there will be a greater sense of urgency. When of course, it's too late to act on it.
 
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