Texas school girl expelled for not standing for pledge...upheld by state AG
- Thread starter GK4Herd
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I never heard of this case, but here is something posted on Reddit in reply to this article...
“The case is made difficult not because the principles of its decision are obscure but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.
If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us."
From the majority opinion of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette by Justice Robert H. Jackson in 1943.
“The case is made difficult not because the principles of its decision are obscure but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.
If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us."
From the majority opinion of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette by Justice Robert H. Jackson in 1943.
BULLCRAP. Kids are pawns of their parents. Kid rights is an extention of a parents wishes. What's next kids having rights to stay home from school
I agree. This issue and the separation of church and state, both 1st Amendment issues, are the ones many people misunderstand or simply ignore to express their misguided sense of nationalism. Real freedom in a country is freedom for everyone. People who believe that Christianity should be the favored religion and nationalism should be mandated, as we see with this case, don’t understand how the constitution actually works.
What gets me on this case, if there isn’t more to it, is how the AG can uphold the school. This is such a basic constitutional matter that it’s hard to understand how a person can rise to the position of AG and still make this kind of decision. It will be overturned so quickly if challenged in the court system that it’s baffling that it was upheld to begin with. My guess is this was a blatant political move from an AG with political ambitions in a state that is dominated by conservatives. At least I hope that’s what it is, because the decision is contrary to our constitution.
Here’s the part that gets me. The principal’s statement...
"She can't come to my school if she won't stand for the pledge."
I have news for that principal. The school isn’t his. It’s paid for and supported by taxpayer money. The school belongs to everyone.
"She can't come to my school if she won't stand for the pledge."
I have news for that principal. The school isn’t his. It’s paid for and supported by taxpayer money. The school belongs to everyone.
well....that doesn't seem to be the case for this girl now does it. so everyone except her?
Here’s the history of the pledge and the Supreme Court...
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog...y-about-under-god-in-the-pledge-of-allegiance
Quick version: Schools can say the pledge...they can use “under God”...it’s recitation is completely voluntary.
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog...y-about-under-god-in-the-pledge-of-allegiance
Quick version: Schools can say the pledge...they can use “under God”...it’s recitation is completely voluntary.
That doesn’t surprise me. I guess the constitution only applies when it involves matters of the second amendment for you.
In the old days there would be no lawsuits. The little commie bastard would have sate there and then would have been ridiculed to humiliation by the other students. Things would have taken care of themselves.
I am for her right to do it. But, she can suffer the consequences.
I am for her right to do it. But, she can suffer the consequences.
The old days, like 1943?
If you had Mr. Hogg in high school, I know you know about WV v Barnette.
There we have it. Every once in a great while you inadvertently tell the truth. You are fine with an American citizen suffering consequences for exercising a Constitutional right.
Did someone declare it to be one and the same? Or are you joining ranks with herdman in believing it's fine for someone to suffer consequences for exercising a Constitutional right?
sure. Free speech. Call a cop a pig and goat ****er. Get hit with a stick. No problem. Free speech.
Walk up and call a 6 ' 9" black guy a you know what. Get your ass kicked. No problem. Free speech.
Sometimes things take care of themselves. No need for a lawyer.
Most of the time. You know what would have happened in our day if someone would have sat down for the pledge.
Yeah, because that's a great comparison to someone sitting in their seat. bravo
Thanks for the double down on you wanting to see someone suffer consequences for exercising a Constitutional right.
There’s a family of Jehovah’s Witnesses that sit for the pledge during the morning assembly every day at the school I teach at. When you have them in your class you have to make allowances for Christmas and other Holidays that they don’t celebrate. They aren’t shunned by the other kids in the least. Their sitting during the pledge is accepted by the other kids and I’ve never witnessed any open hostility toward them. I’ve heard some teachers grumble because they have to make a special effort for them when planning holiday events for the kids, but I’ve seen no animosity from the students at all. Kids are fairly accepting of individual differences in the way people believe. I find it’s the adults who have the most issues with acceptance.
Not that I think that herdman’s depiction of this built in social structure that metes out their own personal justice wasn’t possible in pockets in the “old days,” I believe that his reminiscences are more a product of his own romanticized views rather than a widespread reality. My wife graduated from the same high school as you herdman, and she doesn’t recall any situations where the nationalistic social structure was maintained by students “ridicul(ing) to humiliation” other students for their religious or political beliefs.
Not that I think that herdman’s depiction of this built in social structure that metes out their own personal justice wasn’t possible in pockets in the “old days,” I believe that his reminiscences are more a product of his own romanticized views rather than a widespread reality. My wife graduated from the same high school as you herdman, and she doesn’t recall any situations where the nationalistic social structure was maintained by students “ridicul(ing) to humiliation” other students for their religious or political beliefs.
I just said things would take care of themselves. Both ways. No expulsion. No lawsuits. Whatever.
Everything is a federal case now days. Even when kids get in trouble. Has to involve the cops, school board, Congress, Legislature, etc.
Because you were looking at girl's asses during the pledge.
I remember some long-hairs that didn't stand. And I know we had some Jehovah's Witnesses in school, obviously they did not stand.
Honoring the country and looking at nice asses. Great way to start the day.
Maybe there were a few, I just don't remember. I do remember things being much more simple then and easier.
It was simpler for me too. It's probably because I was a dumbass who didn't understand the issues. I then developed the capacity for abstract thought...to borrow a line from O' Brother.
I tried to jog your memory....I didn't stand for about the last half of our senior year. I became very uneasy with the concept of forced patriotism (and still am), and I realized my allegiance is to the Constitution...bad things have been done under the banner of the flag, and bad things will be done again one day, but the Constitution is forever (if we are wise) and affirms our freedom.
Oh, and nothing was ever done to me, and no one even looked at me funny...and I wasn't the only one in homeroom not standing.
And in 1943.
Really, how fvcking hard is it for supposedly educated professionals to know and follow the law?
Somebody will have to explain this to Herdman, so I will: he is saying that you don't understand the issue, because you're a dumbass.
I understand the issue. If you don't stand for the flag you are being unpatriotic. Free country, your choice. Oh, I get it.
We get it too. You still want someone exercising their Constitutional right to suffer the consequences.
Sure, if I go out where you live and say, listen here you backward ass Wayne inbreds, I will kick all your asses. What do you think will happen? I exorcised my free speech. I get my ass kicked. I would suffer the consequences, correct? Would you come out and say stop, he was exorcising his free speech? Or would you say, that dumb ass deserved it?
It's bizarre. Go ask your forestry friends in California how many countries make their children stand daily and recite a pledge to the flag. Then, for a country built on freedom on religion, one that is not supposed to show favoritism to any religion(s), explain how it makes any sense to force its children to say such a pledge that includes "under God."
You're still trying to equate peacefully sitting in a chair to calling names and violence. Try again.
