What Gun Show Loophole
- Thread starter i am herdman
- Start date
He's wrong. There are tons of individuals selling their "private gun collections" at gun shows, even though these collections are comprised of large numbers of firearms. If you are doing this, you aren't considered an ffl, and don't have to have a license, conduct background checks, etc. This is the gun show loophole that exists - the people that set up booths and sell large #s of firearms for profit, but don't have to abide by existing law because they mask their activities as selling their "private collection." They usually cover up their activities by selling collectibles, outdoors gear, tactical equipment and other items, in addition to their firearms "collection." It is a huge problem, and there is no easy fix, but something needs to be done.
He gives that statistic. He is absolutely correct. Most guns are bought in gun stores, dealers, etc. Not gun shows.
It is not a huge problem.
I am telling you, with certainty based on my own knowledge and experience in my field of employment, that it is a problem. Convicted felons, illegal aliens, unlawful drug users, or [insert any other type of prohibited persons here] regularly purchase guns from these "private collectors" at gun shows, flea markets, cattle sales, etc. because there is no background check requirement. There is NO way to accurately track statistics on these sells, but I would say from my own experience 50% of illegal gun purchases occur in these environments - particularly in rural areas in the south.
Bullshit. The problems with guns are in Chicago(insert other liberal nirvanas of gun control) where gang bangers are using stolen guns or illegally obtained guns. You know it.
Obama also LIED about internet gun sales. You can't just order a gun off the internet and have it delivered to you. It has to go to FFL dealer and a background check must be done. He flat out LIED on that one.
Last edited:
You theory is shot down in flames. The gun show loophole is a myth. A plain old myth and you know it. It is an easy way out. Lip service and the first attempt at gun grabbing.
This article is from 2000
January 10, 2000
“Close the gun show loophole,” demands Handgun Control, Inc. The major obstacle to Congress’s complying with HCI’s wishes appears to be the desire of many Democrats to preserve gun shows as a campaign issue in the 2000 election. But if the voters learn the facts about gun shows, they will discover that there is no gun show loophole, no gun show crime problem and no reason to adopt federal legislation whose main effect would be to infringe on First and Second Amendment rights.
Despite what some media commentators have claimed, existing gun laws apply just as much to gun shows as they do to any other place where guns are sold. Since 1938, persons selling firearms have been required to obtain a federal firearms license. If a dealer sells a gun from a storefront, from a room in his home or from a table at a gun show, the rules are exactly the same: he can get authorization from the FBI for the sale only after the FBI runs its “instant” background check (which often takes days to complete). As a result, firearms are the most severely regulated consumer product in the United States — the only product for which FBI permission is required for every single sale.
Conversely, people who are not engaged in the business of selling firearms, but who sell firearms from time to time (such as a man who sells a hunting rifle to his brother-in-law), are not required to obtain the federal license required of gun dealers or to call the FBI before completing the sale.
Similarly, if a gun collector dies and his widow wants to sell the guns, she does not need a federal firearms license because she is just selling off inherited property and is not “engaged in the business.” And if the widow doesn’t want to sell her deceased husband’s guns by taking out a classified ad in the newspaper, it is lawful for her to rent a table at a gun show and sell the entire collection.
If you walk along the aisles at any gun show, you will find that the overwhelming majority of guns offered for sale are from federally licensed dealers. Guns sold by private individuals (such as gun collectors getting rid of a gun or two over the the weekend) are the distinct minority.
Yet HCI claims that “25-50 percent of the vendors at most gun shows are unlicensed dealers.” That statistic is true only if one counts vendors who aren’t selling guns (e.g., vendors who are selling books, clothing or accessories) as “unlicensed dealers.”
Denver congresswoman Diana DeGette says that 70 percent of guns used in crimes come from gun shows. The true figure is rather different, according to the National Institute of Justice, the research arm of the U.S. Department of Justice. According to an NIJ study released in December 1997 (“Homicide in Eight U.S. Cities,” a report that covers much more than homicide), only 2 percent of criminal guns come from gun shows.
That finding is consistent with a mid-1980s study for the NIJ, which investigated the gun purchase and use habits of convicted felons in 12 state prisons. The study (later published as the book Armed and Considered Dangerous) found that gun shows were such a minor source of criminal gun acquisition that they were not even worth reporting as a separate figure.
At the most recent meeting of the American Society of Criminology, a study of youthful offenders in Michigan found that only 3 percent of the youths in the study had acquired their last handgun from a gun show. (Of course some criminal gun acquisition at gun shows is perpetrated by “straw purchasers” who are legal gun buyers acting as surrogates for the individual who wants the gun. Straw purchases have been federal felonies since 1968.)
According to the educational arm of HCI, the group’s own survey of major-city police chiefs found only 2 out of 48 who said that guns from gun shows (both “legal and illegal sales” according to the questionnaire) were a major problem in their city.
Although the horrible murders at Columbine High School have energized anti-gun activists, no proposed federal law would have made any difference. The adults who supplied the Columbine murder weapons (Robin Anderson and Mark Manes — the latter a son of a longtime HCI activist) were legal purchasers.
Since every gun show takes place entirely within the boundaries of a single state, Congress has no legitimate constitutional basis, under its “interstate commerce” power, to attempt to control gun shows.
Nevertheless, both houses of Congress have passed gun show legislation. The House bill does only what the gun control advocates claim to want: the imposition of federal background checks on personal sales at gun shows.
The Senate version — passed 51-50 thanks to Vice President Gore — goes much further, setting the stage for gun shows to be outlawed. The Senate bill gives the secretary of the Treasury nearly unlimited power to regulate gun show sales.
In the past, Treasury has abused its administrative authority over firearms to ban certain guns, so, similar treatment for gun shows can be expected. For example, the Treasury banned the import of various rifles that were popular for competitive target shooting. Although a federal statute specifically orders Treasury to allow the import of “sporting” firearms, Treasury claimed that only firearms that were recommended by hunting guides were “sporting.”
The Senate version also imposes a tax on gun show promoters and allows the secretary of the Treasury unlimited power in setting the tax level. One can bet that, in this case, the power to tax really will be the power to destroy.
Gun shows are huge gathering points for people who are interested in Second Amendment issues. Gun rights groups frequently set up booths at gun shows to distribute literature and recruit members. Gun shows are places where Americans properly exercise their First and Second Amendment rights, and neither gun show patrons nor vendors deserve the mean-spirited campaign of abuse to which they have been subjected.
This article is from 2000
January 10, 2000
“Close the gun show loophole,” demands Handgun Control, Inc. The major obstacle to Congress’s complying with HCI’s wishes appears to be the desire of many Democrats to preserve gun shows as a campaign issue in the 2000 election. But if the voters learn the facts about gun shows, they will discover that there is no gun show loophole, no gun show crime problem and no reason to adopt federal legislation whose main effect would be to infringe on First and Second Amendment rights.
Despite what some media commentators have claimed, existing gun laws apply just as much to gun shows as they do to any other place where guns are sold. Since 1938, persons selling firearms have been required to obtain a federal firearms license. If a dealer sells a gun from a storefront, from a room in his home or from a table at a gun show, the rules are exactly the same: he can get authorization from the FBI for the sale only after the FBI runs its “instant” background check (which often takes days to complete). As a result, firearms are the most severely regulated consumer product in the United States — the only product for which FBI permission is required for every single sale.
Conversely, people who are not engaged in the business of selling firearms, but who sell firearms from time to time (such as a man who sells a hunting rifle to his brother-in-law), are not required to obtain the federal license required of gun dealers or to call the FBI before completing the sale.
Similarly, if a gun collector dies and his widow wants to sell the guns, she does not need a federal firearms license because she is just selling off inherited property and is not “engaged in the business.” And if the widow doesn’t want to sell her deceased husband’s guns by taking out a classified ad in the newspaper, it is lawful for her to rent a table at a gun show and sell the entire collection.
If you walk along the aisles at any gun show, you will find that the overwhelming majority of guns offered for sale are from federally licensed dealers. Guns sold by private individuals (such as gun collectors getting rid of a gun or two over the the weekend) are the distinct minority.
Yet HCI claims that “25-50 percent of the vendors at most gun shows are unlicensed dealers.” That statistic is true only if one counts vendors who aren’t selling guns (e.g., vendors who are selling books, clothing or accessories) as “unlicensed dealers.”
Denver congresswoman Diana DeGette says that 70 percent of guns used in crimes come from gun shows. The true figure is rather different, according to the National Institute of Justice, the research arm of the U.S. Department of Justice. According to an NIJ study released in December 1997 (“Homicide in Eight U.S. Cities,” a report that covers much more than homicide), only 2 percent of criminal guns come from gun shows.
That finding is consistent with a mid-1980s study for the NIJ, which investigated the gun purchase and use habits of convicted felons in 12 state prisons. The study (later published as the book Armed and Considered Dangerous) found that gun shows were such a minor source of criminal gun acquisition that they were not even worth reporting as a separate figure.
At the most recent meeting of the American Society of Criminology, a study of youthful offenders in Michigan found that only 3 percent of the youths in the study had acquired their last handgun from a gun show. (Of course some criminal gun acquisition at gun shows is perpetrated by “straw purchasers” who are legal gun buyers acting as surrogates for the individual who wants the gun. Straw purchases have been federal felonies since 1968.)
According to the educational arm of HCI, the group’s own survey of major-city police chiefs found only 2 out of 48 who said that guns from gun shows (both “legal and illegal sales” according to the questionnaire) were a major problem in their city.
Although the horrible murders at Columbine High School have energized anti-gun activists, no proposed federal law would have made any difference. The adults who supplied the Columbine murder weapons (Robin Anderson and Mark Manes — the latter a son of a longtime HCI activist) were legal purchasers.
Since every gun show takes place entirely within the boundaries of a single state, Congress has no legitimate constitutional basis, under its “interstate commerce” power, to attempt to control gun shows.
Nevertheless, both houses of Congress have passed gun show legislation. The House bill does only what the gun control advocates claim to want: the imposition of federal background checks on personal sales at gun shows.
The Senate version — passed 51-50 thanks to Vice President Gore — goes much further, setting the stage for gun shows to be outlawed. The Senate bill gives the secretary of the Treasury nearly unlimited power to regulate gun show sales.
In the past, Treasury has abused its administrative authority over firearms to ban certain guns, so, similar treatment for gun shows can be expected. For example, the Treasury banned the import of various rifles that were popular for competitive target shooting. Although a federal statute specifically orders Treasury to allow the import of “sporting” firearms, Treasury claimed that only firearms that were recommended by hunting guides were “sporting.”
The Senate version also imposes a tax on gun show promoters and allows the secretary of the Treasury unlimited power in setting the tax level. One can bet that, in this case, the power to tax really will be the power to destroy.
Gun shows are huge gathering points for people who are interested in Second Amendment issues. Gun rights groups frequently set up booths at gun shows to distribute literature and recruit members. Gun shows are places where Americans properly exercise their First and Second Amendment rights, and neither gun show patrons nor vendors deserve the mean-spirited campaign of abuse to which they have been subjected.
I'm sorry, but where did I discuss anything even close to internet gun sales and/or contradict the need for an ffl to conduct such sales?
First of all, that article was written over 15 years ago. 15 years!!!
Second, you are either completely ignoring my point our you just don't understand it.
FFLs - federally licensed firearms dealers - have to comply with there law, even at gunshows, and most do. I never said otherwise.
The problem is, you have vendors selling guns at gunshows that aren't FFLs and claim they are merely selling their own personal collection of guns. Some of these people have 20+ guns for sale. This also happens at stock sales and flea markets all the time. Because these people say they are selling their own guns, they don't have to follow federal law. They don't have to do background checks, they aren't required to complete a 4473, and they don't have to keep a record off the sell. That is the loophole. That is exactly were the "Chicago thugs" and the like get their illegal firearms.
Trust me on this. I am not anti-gun and I am not a fan of this administration. But I'll wager I know more about guns and federal gun law than anyone on this board, and most people in the U.S. for that matter.
Just be honest with yourself. There is no real gun show loophole. Wow 20 plus guns for sale? The percentage of this is small. You think 20 guns is a lot?
This is one , lip service and two a way for national gun registration. This is not even really a problem.
If only Obummer could be as mad and angry over ISIS as he portrays himself to be over people selling their gun at a gun show. Whining, pouting, King Obummer with another executive order. Actually more criminal than granny selling her dead husbands collection.
The way he attempted to manipulate the masses by using the interruption of religious ceremonies as justification was also pretty damn pathetic. I cant tell you when I've heard a "leader" cry and whine as much as this guy. Michelle clearly kicks his ass all over the white house residence.
The way he attempted to manipulate the masses by using the interruption of religious ceremonies as justification was also pretty damn pathetic. I cant tell you when I've heard a "leader" cry and whine as much as this guy. Michelle clearly kicks his ass all over the white house residence.
Yehh what was the crying Bull Shit. Damn son, if your are that moved by it come and get them. You are the most powerful man on Earth
Reality is nothing he has done, including crying, is going to stop what he is talking about.
Reality is he is a power hungry elitist who has a grudge against this country.
Reality is nothing he has done, including crying, is going to stop what he is talking about.
Reality is he is a power hungry elitist who has a grudge against this country.
it wasn't even that long of a discussion. i'm kind of disappointed, kind of impressed.
In fairness, this discussion was pretty much done long before mention of Hitler.
Borrowed this from another forum in a discussion about where criminals get gunes. Concise and pretty much spot on.
1. Stolen from houses, gun shops, trucks, factories, armories.
Yes this way
2. Purchased through a “straw man”.
This is too much work and too much at risk for all parties. I would guess this is a very small %
3. Imported from foreign countries in connection with other illegal stuff, particularly drugs. But where do those guns originate in those countries, which likely have tougher gun laws than we do?
The majority in addition to stolen. I would assume that most gun crimes were with guns purchased from the local drug dealers. If I were a bad guy, this is what I would do. All of the rest of the options put me at too much risk and are too much work. This is the easy way.
4. Purchased legally in a private sale from someone who required no background check. The notorious “gun show loophole” that anti-gunners squeal about.
Probably little to none. This is too much work and you dont want normal people identifying you.
------------------
A straw man purchase would be for example, herdman goes and buys a gun for extragreen but it is under herdman's name and they run the background check on herdman.
I agree. that this is not really the problem. Too much risk involved there.
I think most of them are stolen guns and gun running with the drug cartels, dealers.
There is too much risk even in the so called gun show loop hole. If I am selling guns at a gun show out of my collection why would I for one sell it to a shady character and put my name on a bill of sale with a gun serial number. Two, why would the criminal risk having a paper trail. Little to none of the problem.
---------------------------------
There is a problem with a few things here:
1)Mental Health issues
2)People whacked out on all kids of medicines these days
3)We don't train kids on guns anymore. Their parents don't, elders don't, kids are not going to Boy Scout camp anymore and shooting, and less people have military experience.
4)The problems with the thugs in places like Chicago using illegal guns to kill each other.
1. Stolen from houses, gun shops, trucks, factories, armories.
Yes this way
2. Purchased through a “straw man”.
This is too much work and too much at risk for all parties. I would guess this is a very small %
3. Imported from foreign countries in connection with other illegal stuff, particularly drugs. But where do those guns originate in those countries, which likely have tougher gun laws than we do?
The majority in addition to stolen. I would assume that most gun crimes were with guns purchased from the local drug dealers. If I were a bad guy, this is what I would do. All of the rest of the options put me at too much risk and are too much work. This is the easy way.
4. Purchased legally in a private sale from someone who required no background check. The notorious “gun show loophole” that anti-gunners squeal about.
Probably little to none. This is too much work and you dont want normal people identifying you.
------------------
A straw man purchase would be for example, herdman goes and buys a gun for extragreen but it is under herdman's name and they run the background check on herdman.
I agree. that this is not really the problem. Too much risk involved there.
I think most of them are stolen guns and gun running with the drug cartels, dealers.
There is too much risk even in the so called gun show loop hole. If I am selling guns at a gun show out of my collection why would I for one sell it to a shady character and put my name on a bill of sale with a gun serial number. Two, why would the criminal risk having a paper trail. Little to none of the problem.
---------------------------------
There is a problem with a few things here:
1)Mental Health issues
2)People whacked out on all kids of medicines these days
3)We don't train kids on guns anymore. Their parents don't, elders don't, kids are not going to Boy Scout camp anymore and shooting, and less people have military experience.
4)The problems with the thugs in places like Chicago using illegal guns to kill each other.
Somewhere in the range of 30-40% of guns that change hands have no background check involved. So lets not pretend there's no problem.
Yehh my mom gave me grandad's shotgun. Now do you know what the number 30-40% of guns that change hands would be? Oh and the gangbanger gun runner giving it to a Crip or Blood doesn't count. That is illegal anyway.
There are 310 million guns in this country. 19 million NICS background checks were done in 2012 alone.
Now think about what you are saying. 6 to 7 million guns with no background check. If it were as easy as what you say, then gun shops would not be in business and all guns would be sold with no background check.
Last edited:
They're about the only stockholders not crying like Obama right now. The crying food stamp idol of thugs everywhere. Thugs cry. I've seen it when they lose ballgames. Cry like girls.
Tell me herdman, if 15 million people bought a gun from a licensed dealer this year with background checks, and if 1/3 (5 million) of those 15 million sold or handed down the gun without a background check (exchanged hands), and half of those guns (2.5 million) were again sold without a background check, how many guns exchanged hands without a background check?
Well, those people just broke federal law as that is called a straw man purchase unless it is gifted to a family member(father or mother to child) that lives in the SAME state. Plus there are other state laws in place.
So what more laws do you want? And two, do you think 5 million guns are being bought as strawman purhcases? Get real. And do you think criminals and thugs are getting someone to do a strawman purhcase?
you see you and people like you don't understand the laws in place nor what it takes to buy a gun. There are already federal laws in place.
That shi( you mention is not happening in those numbers. You think that the local blood and crip gang member or MS13 is paying herdman or someone they know to go into a gun store and buy a glock and herdman goes through the background check with the gun assigned to him and then I go sell it to a known criminal?
Not happening to the tune of what you say. That is not how they are getting guns. Have you seen the price of guns in the gun stores lately? They are not buying and getting guns that way.
In most places it is legal for me to buy a gun for myself, and then later sell it to someone else.
I don't know how most thugs and criminals get their guns. I stated that 30-40% of guns that exchange hands do so without a background check.
According to the statistics, which are woefully inadequate, most guns traced back to crimes come from private sells - that is person-to-person transactions. Straw purchases rank second and are easy to do, but hard to prosecute. Gun shows, flea markets, etc. rank a distant 3rd.
Yes, private sales, like...Julio selling it to Tyrone out the back of the car...Glock for two fitty.
Of course, the statistics don't support my own estimation of 50%. However, I'll chalk that up to 2 things: (1) perhaps it is higher in my part of the country than it is nationwide, or (2) the numbers are skewed because there is no way to accurately track flea market/gun show collector sales.
And don't get me wrong, I think everyone that can LEGALLY posses firearms should have them. My position is there are too many gaps in the law for people that's shouldn't have guns to get them. I like the idea of law-abiding citizens having guns. Criminals, druggies, people with a propensity towards domestic violence, and nutjobs - not so much.
Greed, he probably went to Dick's Sporting Goods and got it. Well, not actually since they don't sell Glock pistols.
But, this may help you. It is called gun runnin'. Just like booze, drugs, and hookers.
Chicago criminals are finicky about how they get their guns, according to a new study by the University of Chicago Crime Lab.
In a survey of almost 100 detainees in the Cook County Jail, few said they get firearms at gun shows or through the Internet, said Harold Pollack, co-director of the crime lab. They also said they don’t normally steal guns or buy them at a licensed store.
[…]
Pollack, Philip Cook of Duke University and Susan Parker of U. of C. were the authors of the study, which was published online Friday in the Preventative Medicine journal.
[…]
About 70 percent said they got their guns from family, fellow gang members or through other social connections. Only two said they bought a gun at a store. It’s unclear how many of those surveyed were felons, but they can’t hold a state firearm owner’s permit — so they can’t legally purchase a weapon at a store.
[…]
Some of those surveyed said people with legal permits to own a firearm buy guns for everyone in the neighborhood who wants one. Sometimes, gang leaders pick someone to go out of state to buy guns. Two inmates said corrupt cops take guns and “put them back on the street.”
But, this may help you. It is called gun runnin'. Just like booze, drugs, and hookers.
Chicago criminals are finicky about how they get their guns, according to a new study by the University of Chicago Crime Lab.
In a survey of almost 100 detainees in the Cook County Jail, few said they get firearms at gun shows or through the Internet, said Harold Pollack, co-director of the crime lab. They also said they don’t normally steal guns or buy them at a licensed store.
[…]
Pollack, Philip Cook of Duke University and Susan Parker of U. of C. were the authors of the study, which was published online Friday in the Preventative Medicine journal.
[…]
About 70 percent said they got their guns from family, fellow gang members or through other social connections. Only two said they bought a gun at a store. It’s unclear how many of those surveyed were felons, but they can’t hold a state firearm owner’s permit — so they can’t legally purchase a weapon at a store.
[…]
Some of those surveyed said people with legal permits to own a firearm buy guns for everyone in the neighborhood who wants one. Sometimes, gang leaders pick someone to go out of state to buy guns. Two inmates said corrupt cops take guns and “put them back on the street.”
Wait. That would mean in that sample that 70% of those inmates got their guns without a background check. Question: If the law says you (herdman, who purchased from a federal licensed dealer with a background check) have to do a background check to sell it to Julio, are you going to sell it to him without a background check and take the risk of fine and jail time when that weapon is used in a criminal killing?
Lmao you can't except it for what is going on. They aren't going to ever get a background check.
You don't like guns I get it. But at least have the balls to say I wish all gins were gun a d the government would take them. Or say we have laws and some are not being enforced properly and criminals are never going to obey laws.
Those vast majority of those guns are not coming from gin shows or grandpa selling his collection.
They are coming from gun runners who are already breaking the law.
You don't like the 2nd amendment. Take our the criminals there really isn't a gun problem especially with gun shows. That is lip service.
You don't like guns I get it. But at least have the balls to say I wish all gins were gun a d the government would take them. Or say we have laws and some are not being enforced properly and criminals are never going to obey laws.
Those vast majority of those guns are not coming from gin shows or grandpa selling his collection.
They are coming from gun runners who are already breaking the law.
You don't like the 2nd amendment. Take our the criminals there really isn't a gun problem especially with gun shows. That is lip service.
Are you going to sell a gun to Julio without a background check and hope the gun you sell him is not used in a crime, or not? Just answer yes or no, sissy.
