D’Antoni can become....

[W-S HerdFan]

...the #2 in wins next week in Frisco. He sits @ 128, one victory behind Huck. When he gets it, I don’t believe we will ever get a HC to stay long enough to get past him. Henderson, who coached the Herd for 20 seasons, is untouchable with 362 W’s....
Not really wanting a fight. Just think it is a pretty damn good achievement by a Son of Marshall.
Go Herd!!!

 

[muthed]

...the #2 in wins next week in Frisco. He sits @ 128, one victory behind Huck. When he gets it, I don’t believe we will ever get a HC to stay long enough to get past him. Henderson, who coached the Herd for 20 seasons, is untouchable with 362 W’s....
Not really wanting a fight. Just think it is a pretty damn good achievement by a Son of Marshall.
Go Herd!!!

I agree. But, cue Sam.

 

[herdfan06]

I agree. But, cue Sam.

You need to tag him.

 

[Aaron Perkins]

I agree. Huge deal to get to number 2 for sure. It’s a sign of solid programs when you have coaches passing legends in categories such as wins.

 

[johns1124]

Yes, it takes a SOM to be able to continue mediocracy for long enough to claim
the #2 spot with a .563 record and backdoor trip to the NCAA tourney. Hell DOC almost
became #1 and we all know how everyone feels about him.

 

[W-S HerdFan]

Yes, it takes a SOM to be able to continue mediocracy for long enough to claim
the #2 spot with a .563 record and backdoor trip to the NCAA tourney. Hell DOC almost
became #1 and we all know how everyone feels about him.

Mediocracy? Unless your last name begins with a K and ends with an i, you will find most schools all-time winningest HC’s in a range that includes that %.
The hate is strong with you johns!!! Let it flow through you and connect it with the Samdolorian!! The combo of your dark matter going forward will be a new Herd Holliday known as “Johnsmas”. Celebrated each March 16, it commemorates the Herds 1st NCAA tourney win in the history of the program. For 2, it is a solemn occasion mourning the D’Antoni anomaly, whereby his team “got hot for 8 days” and was lucky.

p.s. John was not a SOM, and that makes a huge difference.

“Run to the tape!”

 

[W-S HerdFan]

FYI:
Marshall coaching winning % (min 7 seasons)
1. Henderson .695
2. White .578
3. D’Antoni .566
4. Rivlin .532

So, comparing to his peers, at this point in his career DD is doing OK. More to come, as I believe he isn’t nearly done coaching the Herd!

 

[johns1124]

most schools all-time winningest HC’s in a range that includes that %.

And most coaches with a .560 won't stick around very long to see it. Want to give me a link to the rest?

Herd Holliday known as “Johnsmas”. Celebrated each March 16, it commemorates the Herds 1st NCAA tourney win in the history of the program

Wow, one win in Herd Basketball history. Glad to see our standards have shot so high. We celebrate One win five years ago.

“got hot for 8 days” and was lucky.

I don't recall saying "we got lucky". I did say it was 8 good days nothing more nothing less.

p.s. John was not a SOM, and that makes a huge difference.

Exactly, that's why ultimately Dan will stay well past his due, based solely on one win. IMO, Doc should have been let go a year or two after the 2014 meltdown.

 

[W-S HerdFan]

Care to show where you made your “Fire Doc” post in 2016? Please provide link.

5 years ago? Five years? How about less than 3. Math was never your strong suit in school, apparently.

Past his due? According to who? (Dr.Seuss ref)
If he continues to recruit talented players & keeps winning like this season (winning % .714), why stop? New hip coming in April, Dad lived past 100......what else is he going to do?

 

[Chris McLaughlin]

Unless your last name begins with a K and ends with an i, you will find most schools all-time winningest HC’s in a range that includes that %.

Nah.

Career Coaching Men's Leaders and Records for Win-Loss Percentage | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

Career Coaching Men's Leaders and Records for Win-Loss Percentage

www.sports-reference.com

 

[W-S HerdFan]

Exactly, that's why ultimately Dan will stay well past his due, based solely on one win. IMO, Doc should have been let go a year or two after the 2014 meltdown.

I think you meant 2016.......

 

[johns1124]

Care to show where you made your “Fire Doc” post in 2016? Please provide link.

We Are.... | HerdNation.com (rivals.com)

I think you meant 2016.......

No, I meant 2014.
The meltdown, to WKU, that took us out of contention for the Fiesta.

If he continues to recruit talented players & keeps winning like this season (winning % .714), why stop?

You cannot use this year as a standard. Watching the last two weeks of CBB it's becoming obvious some guys/teams are tired of being sequestered on campus. Lots of teams look apathetic out there. Watching ECU / UCF the other day. ECU down by 4 with 33 seconds left UCF with the ball. ECU just let UCF run the time off to end the game. ECU threw in the towel. Didn't bother extending the clock.

With that said, I expect something like this out of the post-season NIT. Have a feeling teams will go half-hazard if they get behind, oh well; What is the worse that can happen. Get back to school, fly home, and start taking the remainder of the classes online like all the other students? Not a bad option sence you been confined since August.

 

[The Real SamC]

Interesting stuff here.

It’s a sign of solid programs...

p.s. John (sic) was not a SOM, and that makes a huge difference.

DD is doing OK.

Mediocrity is accepted. Especially if the coach in question went to Marshall.

Next Sunday we will see a list of the teams that demand excellence have their names called.

 

[W-S HerdFan]

Yes, it takes a SOM to be able to continue mediocracy for long enough to claim
the #2 spot with a .563 record and backdoor trip to the NCAA tourney. Hell DOC almost
became #1 and we all know how everyone feels about him.

OK - (deep breath)....diving into this rabbit hole:
Small batch analysis. Include: Most of our current conference mates + some old MAC foes. Include: the #2 all-time wininngest HC at each school. Qualifier: must have coached minimum of 6 seasons at said school. As follows:
UAB Mu Bartow .554
USM L Eustschy .557
UTEP T Floyd .582
Rice D Suman .557
WKU J Oldham .781
ODU P Webb .670
MTSU J Earle .614
UNCC J Mullins .562
LA Tech E Konkl .665
Ohio L Hunter .580
Toledo T Kwlcyk .575 (current HC)
BGSU J Larnaga .538

D’Antoni .566

Average tenure: 9 seasons
Average win % : .603 (mean)
.5775 (median)
.557 (mode)
Now: Should I have dug myself a hole by mentioning Coach K? Prob not.
Should we be comparing our program to a Blue blood? Definitely not!
Among this peer group, Dan compares favorably to about 1/2, and is below the other 1/2.
Fire away!!

 

[KyMUfan]

OK - (deep breath)....diving into this rabbit hole:
Small batch analysis. Include: Most of our current conference mates + some old MAC foes. Include: the #2 all-time wininngest HC at each school. Qualifier: must have coached minimum of 6 seasons at said school. As follows:
UAB Mu Bartow .554
USM L Eustschy .557
UTEP T Floyd .582
Rice D Suman .557
WKU J Oldham .781
ODU P Webb .670
MTSU J Earle .614
UNCC J Mullins .562
LA Tech E Konkl .665
Ohio L Hunter .580
Toledo T Kwlcyk .575 (current HC)
BGSU J Larnaga .538

D’Antoni .566

Average tenure: 9 seasons
Average win % : .603 (mean)
.5775 (median)
.557 (mode)
Now: Should I have dug myself a hole by mentioning Coach K? Prob not.
Should we be comparing our program to a Blue blood? Definitely not!
Among this peer group, Dan compares favorably to about 1/2, and is below the other 1/2.
Fire away!!

I like your analysis. Many here will say if he compares favorably to half and is below the other half then he is average and we are accepting mediocrity.

He has outperformed virtually all MU basketball coaches in recent memory, is not using MU as a stepping stone which gives more stability to build the program. We are competitive and play a fun style of basketball.

Let's continue to build and improve to the point where we are the best program in CUSA. We are getting closer to that goal.

 

[The Real SamC]

He has outperformed virtually all MU basketball coaches in recent memory, is not using MU as a stepping stone which gives more stability to build the program.

That is called "accepting mediocrity".

We are competitive and play a fun style of basketball.

So is that.

Let's continue to build and improve to the point where we are the best program in CUSA. We are getting closer to that goal.

Other than childlike super-fandom, what have you seen that makes you believe that is true? MU finished 3rd in a division. The same results should be expected next year, and the next and the next. We have stagnated in the upper third, which is no real challenge considering how weak this one-bid conference's bottom is.

 

[W-S HerdFan]

That is called "accepting mediocrity".



So is that.



Other than childlike super-fandom, what have you seen that makes you believe that is true? MU finished 3rd in a division. The same results should be expected next year, and the next and the next. We have stagnated in the upper third, which is no real challenge considering how weak this one-bid conference's bottom is.

Sam - this discussion is about basketball, not football....pay attention!!

 

[johns1124]

OK - (deep breath)....diving into this rabbit hole:

First, I would be careful using Rifle words, in this case, "Rabbit Hole" or he will accuse you of plagiarizing him as he did me when I used the word "Disingenuous". In order to appease the mighty word warrior, you will need to put a "™", so in my case, I will put "Disingenuous™". That way I am giving him the rights to using the word first here on HN, so I don't have to hear him bitch. In your case: "Rabbit Hole™", should appease him so you don't get the same fate as I did.

UAB Mu Bartow .554
USM L Eustschy .557
UTEP T Floyd .582
Rice D Suman .557
WKU J Oldham .781
ODU P Webb .670
MTSU J Earle .614
UNCC J Mullins .562
LA Tech E Konkl .665
Ohio L Hunter .580
Toledo T Kwlcyk .575 (current HC)
BGSU J Larnaga .538

If you are shooting for Mediocracy, you have found it. The only two schools above you have a History with Basketball is WKU and ODU, and yes I know UTEP won the thing is '66. But a one and done does not equate to being known as a basketball school or history. To say otherwise would be Disingenuous™.

I have said before I am not advocating releasing the coach at this point. A couple more years of mediocracy, and we may be having a different discussion. I keep hearing "Fun" & "Exciting". What's fun watching DD mismanage his TO at the end of the game, or losing to a team he has an 8 point advantage to? (No. Texas, La. Tech). He sure seems to squander many games he should be winning.

 

[W-S HerdFan]

Whenever Samdolorian starts harkening back to the “good ole’ days” of his youth (60+ years ago when he was a teen) I wonder which era he is referring to. Is it the late 40’s under The Old Man? Mid 50’s Cam? 1966-73 Johnson/Way/Tacy/Daniels? Or mid 80’s Huck? The point being: We don’t have a particular storied, consistent history of performing on the national stage. So why advocate for “better” while ignoring the facts above? Hint: Maybe this is as good as it gets for the Herd? The fans of this coach & his teams seem to be enjoying what they are seeing. More importantly: Maybe Marshall basketball just isn’t for you?.......

 

[KyMUfan]

Other than childlike super-fandom, what have you seen that makes you believe that is true? MU finished 3rd in a division. The same results should be expected next year, and the next and the next. We have stagnated in the upper third, which is no real challenge considering how weak this one-bid conference's bottom is.

No childlike super-fandom here. Just being a realist. If winning a conference every year in every sport is so easy, why isn't everyone doing it or why it hasn't been done before at MU? It's called competition and virtually everyone is striving for the same goal.

Third in the division this year? This year is an anomaly with the abundance of away games, limited or no practice before some of these road trips.

I have SEEN DD's teams improve over virtually every season he has been here, much like Danny Crum's UofL teams did (and I do know you understand that is an analogy- they won NCAA championships, MU has not). After the first home game of the NCAA season I had a long-time Herd fan tell me that team was the worst MU team he had ever seen play at The Cam... I think that team did get better and peak at the right time.

Other reasons - DD has outperformed virtually every MU coach over the last 40 years, the Herd is second only to ODU in average finish over the last several seasons, won AT La Tech this year. Others as well.

That said - I'm having fun watching them and they have been winning in the process. Doc was winning (though not necessarily the games that counted) but I wasn't having fun watching his teams.

 

[KyMUfan]

First, I would be careful using Rifle words, in this case, "Rabbit Hole" or he will accuse you of plagiarizing him as he did me when I used the word "Disingenuous". In order to appease the mighty word warrior, you will need to put a "™", so in my case, I will put "Disingenuous™". That way I am giving him the rights to using the word first here on HN, so I don't have to hear him bitch. In your case: "Rabbit Hole™", should appease him so you don't get the same fate as I did.



If you are shooting for Mediocracy, you have found it. The only two schools above you have a History with Basketball is WKU and ODU, and yes I know UTEP won the thing is '66. But a one and done does not equate to being known as a basketball school or history. To say otherwise would be Disingenuous™.

I have said before I am not advocating releasing the coach at this point. A couple more years of mediocracy, and we may be having a different discussion. I keep hearing "Fun" & "Exciting". What's fun watching DD mismanage his TO at the end of the game, or losing to a team he has an 8 point advantage to? (No. Texas, La. Tech). He sure seems to squander many games he should be winning.

Agree more than you know with your first two paragraphs.

Agree with a lot of your third paragraph too. Frustrating also seems to come with Fun and Exciting... I have been frustrated with the slow starts out of the gate, unexplained lapses when large leads evaporate as the offense appears to devolve into a Chinese fire drill (am I a xenophobe for that analogy?), poor clock management at the end of the game, etc.

I see players come off the court after substitutions with neither DD or an assistant coach giving them feedback or instruction.

These contribute to my frustrations but at the end of the day the fun and enjoyment outweigh those negatives to me.

 

[W-S HerdFan]

First, I would be careful using Rifle words, in this case, "Rabbit Hole" or he will accuse you of plagiarizing him as he did me when I used the word "Disingenuous". In order to appease the mighty word warrior, you will need to put a "™", so in my case, I will put "Disingenuous™". That way I am giving him the rights to using the word first here on HN, so I don't have to hear him bitch. In your case: "Rabbit Hole™", should appease him so you don't get the same fate as I did.



If you are shooting for Mediocracy, you have found it. The only two schools above you have a History with Basketball is WKU and ODU, and yes I know UTEP won the thing is '66. But a one and done does not equate to being known as a basketball school or history. To say otherwise would be Disingenuous™.

I have said before I am not advocating releasing the coach at this point. A couple more years of mediocracy, and we may be having a different discussion. I keep hearing "Fun" & "Exciting". What's fun watching DD mismanage his TO at the end of the game, or losing to a team he has an 8 point advantage to? (No. Texas, La. Tech). He sure seems to squander many games he should be winning.

johns - appreciate your post. I actually am more incensed over losing the 21 pt 2nd half lead (and eventually the bye) to ODU....
UTEP - their coach had nearly 750 wins in 38 seasons. I bet UTEP fans would beg to differ! That’s about double Henderson’s win total in less than twice as many years....

As for rifle: I am only worried he will read the phrase “rabbit hole”, and regal us with a story of another conquest, this time with a playboy bunny.....

 

[KyMUfan]

johns - appreciate your post. I actually am more incensed over losing the 21 pt 2nd half lead (and eventually the bye) to ODU....

I was sick in bed when that happened and had forgotten about that game. Thanks for reminding me...😄😥 (don't know whether to laugh or cry...).

 

[Herd1972]

Marshall has an excellent record in basketball and football when you take into consideration our size and resources. We have won over 52% of our football games and 57% of our basketball games. Cam Henderson had a 358-158 record and recorded wins over Syracuse, Long Island, Memphis, Virginia Tech, Pepperdine, Dayton, Western Kentucky, Louisville (while ranked 19th in the country by a 96-72 score), Indiana State (Henderson was 2-1 against John Wooden when he coached the Sycamores), Miami Florida, Loyola, Maryland, Denver, S t. Francis, Wichita State, South Carolina and St. Louis. We won the NAIB (NAIA) in 1947 and made it to the quarterfinals 2 other years. We had the highest winning percentage in college football (division 1) throughout the 1990's.
Cam Henderson created the fast break and zone defense.
I believe we have done very well in both sports.

 

[Sean Hammond]

I dont know why these types of conversations become contentious. We just finished third in our division with a team who returned everyone from last season. We had a nice year, but I don’t understand why some feel it isn't worthy of criticism.

Decent regular season, but it needs to be better if we want the program to grow. Things are getting stagnant.

 

[W-S HerdFan]

I dont know why these types of conversations become contentious. We just finished third in our division with a team who returned everyone from last season. We had a nice year, but I don’t understand why some feel it isn't worthy of criticism.

Decent regular season, but it needs to be better if we want the program to grow. Things are getting stagnant.

Sean - In your opinion, is there a significance to Dan getting to #2?

 

[i am herdman]

Marshall is also very, very patient with coaches.

 

[W-S HerdFan]

Marshall is also very, very patient with coaches.

True. Usually 4 seasons minimum in bskball last 30 years or so. Freeman/Jirsa (thanks KO)/Herrion. Just as often, coaches have moved on (Altman/Donovan/Jones). IDK if 4 seasons is above or below avg in our level of competition. I know locally here in W-S, Wake waited on Danny Manning at least 2 seasons too many imo, and had to pay out millions to get rid of him! 6 seasons! Poor Deacon fans.....

 

[Sean Hammond]

Sean - In your opinion, is there a significance to Dan getting to #2?

Sure. And Dan has done a solid job. Our program was shit when he took over. He turned it around pretty quickly and got us to the dance. It’s a nice story. But even with Elmore, Burks, & Penava, we were just 12-6 in CUSA that year. Since then we’re 30-20 in CUSA play. It’s ok, not enough to put him on the hot seat, IMO. But we need to start asking for more. What’s the next step? How does this program keep progressing? Has DD plateaued?

These questions need to be asked/discussed instead of debating what happened three seasons ago.

 

[Aaron Perkins]

You had me until your “ps”. That has nothing to do with anything.

I dont know why these types of conversations become contentious. We just finished third in our division with a team who returned everyone from last season. We had a nice year, but I don’t understand why some feel it isn't worthy of criticism.

Decent regular season, but it needs to be better if we want the program to grow. Things are getting stagnant.

Stagnant???

Wow.

I mean what in the world has to happen around here to keep people happy.

Last four seasons

First NCAA tournament in a million years and a tourney win
CIT Championship, and the crowing of our best scorer in school history
Lose 4,500 points from our team, end the year winning 7 of 9 games and then we have the CUSA tourney cut short to COVID and we were arguably one of the hottest teams in the league
And this year we go 15 - 6 in probably the deepest CUSA since the likes of Memphis left, and with COVID going on

And "stagnant?"

 

[BleedsGreen33]

You had me until your “ps”. That has nothing to do with anything.



Stagnant???

Wow.

I mean what in the world has to happen around here to keep people happy.

Last four seasons

First NCAA tournament in a million years and a tourney win
CIT Championship, and the crowing of our best scorer in school history
Lose 4,500 points from our team, end the year winning 7 of 9 games and then we have the CUSA tourney cut short to COVID and we were arguably one of the hottest teams in the league
And this year we go 15 - 6 in probably the deepest CUSA since the likes of Memphis left, and with COVID going on

And "stagnant?"

We're not stagnant, but don't brag about winning the CIT. It's pretty meaningless. You're bragging about being #101 (68 NCAA + 32 NIT). Bragging about the CIT or CBI validates anyone's claim that Marshall embraces mediocrity.

 

[Sean Hammond]

You had me until your “ps”. That has nothing to do with anything.



Stagnant???

Wow.

I mean what in the world has to happen around here to keep people happy.

Last four seasons

First NCAA tournament in a million years and a tourney win
CIT Championship, and the crowing of our best scorer in school history
Lose 4,500 points from our team, end the year winning 7 of 9 games and then we have the CUSA tourney cut short to COVID and we were arguably one of the hottest teams in the league
And this year we go 15 - 6 in probably the deepest CUSA since the likes of Memphis left, and with COVID going on

And "stagnant?"

I’m happy. I’m just tired of us finishing 4-6 in the regular season. Whether it’s Elmore or not, that’s where we finish. To the posters who come here and complain, they have a point on that. I feel like fans should be able to ask questions and discuss ways things can improve without being labeled bad fans.

Maybe “stagnant” wasn’t the right term, but there’s potential for us to lose some seniors for next season and our leading scorer. When we finish 4-6 next season, that will be the excuse. When do we have a couple of seasons where we’re 1-3 in the CUSA regular season standings? If that happens next season, that’s showing signs of growth and that’s what I’m wanting. Again, I’m not here to fire anyone or place anyone on the hot seat. I’m a sports fan. I want us to be better. And every single season, finishing 4-6 in the regular season while hoping to make a run in the CUSA tournament, is where we seem to be stuck at.

Also, I’m one of the few people who was on here in the beginning defending the DD hire. I’ve spent far too much time explaining how it could work to people who hoped it would fail. I’m not here rooting for failure.

 

[Aaron Perkins]

We're not stagnant, but don't brag about winning the CIT. It's pretty meaningless. You're bragging about being #101 (68 NCAA + 32 NIT). Bragging about the CIT or CBI validates anyone's claim that Marshall embraces mediocrity.

I’m not bragging about it. But it definitely wasn’t a “stagnant” period of b-ball. It was a very exciting run of games leading up to that final.

 

[Chris McLaughlin]

I do believe regular season finishes of T-5th, 6th and 6th means we're getting a bit stagnant. It doesn't mean Coach D needs to go; far from it. But we have to be better from November through February if this program is going to elevate to the next level.

 

[muthed]

DD is coaching basketball at Marshall and the rest of us are on a message board spilling our guts on how we can win more games. There must be a reason why.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

I agree with Chris, I think we have leveled off to a degree and really didn't take advantage of our NCAA win and CIT crown - at least it seems that way in the short term. DD has missed on several recruits and seems reluctant to make roster changes or bring in a kid or two to help immediately. While I admire his loyalty to the kids on roster, he is paid to win games and titles, just like Doc was, or any other college coach. Sometimes those changes need to be made for the good of the program.
Football had most definitely become stagnant and we needed change. If B'ball can't win the league in 21-22 or at least get to the tourney finals, I would put that label on the program as well, no question.

 

[Aaron Perkins]

I can begrudgingly accept the fact that maybe, maybe football was stagnant...maybe.

But, basketball. For people to already be thinking that bball is stagnant, with just one complete season under our belts since our first tourney appearance in ages is baffling.

 

[ohio herd]

IMO we should judge Marshall basketball since the 53-54 season when we joined the MAC. That gives us 67 years to measure ourselves. In that time, we have been to the NCAA 6 times. We have been to the NIT 5 times. I am not counting the CIT at this time for this comparison. That means we have played postseason about 20% of the time. Of course we have had some awesome players suit up so I think overall we have a nice history. I don't think we have a great history. So we need patience if we ever want that to improve. Of the 11 years we have been involved in the postseason a D'antoni has either played or coached us is 5 of those games. So we have a proven winner who is doing a solid job currently. Danny is probably more like Moses. He will not take us into the Promised Land of basketball elites but is taking us to the border and positioning us to go to the next level. The old show Kung Fu has a lesson to be learned. The Shaolin monk would say to Kwai Chang Caine, "Patience, young grasshopper" . HerdNation hang in there we are getting better.

 

[i am herdman]

I would think if he we have a NBA type player then we would be better. That is just me. Seems like a legit NBA could carry you a long way in CUSA. I would think if you had a NBA type guy and a good supporting class you would honestly win the league.

 

[ohio herd]

I would think if he we have a NBA type player then we would be better. That is just me. Seems like a legit NBA could carry you a long way in CUSA. I would think if you had a NBA type guy and a good supporting class you would honestly win the league.

we have one now according to the NBAscouts