I'm not anti-cop at all, but holy crap...
- Thread starter herdit44
- Start date
Two coincidental police pursuit items I have seen since last night:
On the local news, two people died in a crash after being pursued by the police. A man used force to carjack a woman at a car wash. Police chased him, but called off the pursuit when speeds became too fast in a populated area. The carjacker and his passenger, a friend he had stopped to pickup before the chase, died after they hit another vehicle while still driving fast minutes after the chase had ceased.
And in one of my hometown papers this morning, they had an article solely about police chases being stopped. These are more reasons why I have no issue with the officer pulling his weapon to do what he needed to, short of lethal measures in that situation, to stop the guy from fleeing:
http://www.stargazette.com/story/news/public-safety/2015/07/30/high-speed-chase/30891307/
On the local news, two people died in a crash after being pursued by the police. A man used force to carjack a woman at a car wash. Police chased him, but called off the pursuit when speeds became too fast in a populated area. The carjacker and his passenger, a friend he had stopped to pickup before the chase, died after they hit another vehicle while still driving fast minutes after the chase had ceased.
And in one of my hometown papers this morning, they had an article solely about police chases being stopped. These are more reasons why I have no issue with the officer pulling his weapon to do what he needed to, short of lethal measures in that situation, to stop the guy from fleeing:
http://www.stargazette.com/story/news/public-safety/2015/07/30/high-speed-chase/30891307/
We can talk about the police chase in Detroit that killed 2 kids the other day when the cop car crashed the other car and it killed the kids playing in the street
http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...etroit-police-chase-children-killed/29252841/
http://www.khou.com/longform/news/2015/07/30/police-pursuits-fatal-injuries/30187827/
http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...etroit-police-chase-children-killed/29252841/
http://www.khou.com/longform/news/2015/07/30/police-pursuits-fatal-injuries/30187827/
Can we talk about black violence in places like Detroit and Chicago? How many people does that kill?
Too many, nobody is disputing that or even talking about that. Stick to the topic instead of spewing your racist agenda
And my original disagreement was against those people who claimed the officer was at fault for pulling his weapon. Why was he at fault for that? He had options to use it in a non-lethal way to diffuse the potential threat. So, why are many of you against him even taking it out when the guy was trying to flee?
That's because it is hard to do in those types of serious situations where there is fast action. In this case, he easily could have taken out a tire, threatened with the weapon to make the driver stop, or even shot at the leg since the driver wasn't moving in the car.
Shot him in the Leg???? why shot him at all. How about make non-threatening commands and maybe just maybe he would have complied. He never asked for the guys ssn or DL# just automatically assumed he was up to no good.
he made multiple non-threatening commands. he asked the individual multiple times if he had his driver's license and the guy answered in the affirmative a couple times, non-sensical others, etc.
i know you claimed a cop let you give him your dl number or ssn, but you're legally required to carry your license when operating a motor vehicle (and depending on the state have your registration and proof of insurance).
when you hand them your license, they can look at the picture right there on the license and you, to verify it's correct before going back to their cruiser to run your info. if you give them a made up number how are they to know it's actually you when going back to the cruiser to run the info? you could easily give them the wrong ssn or dl # and when he goes back to the cruiser to run that info you can take off...
If the guys starts to flee in a vehicle in that area, a residential community, I have no issue with getting him in his leg if it's a clear shot. I would rather have that guy injured than an innocent person killed or maimed by this guy flying through neighborhoods.
You think that guy would have his DL# memorized? He didn't have a plate on. He didn't have his license. In Virginia, at least when I lived there, giving a DL# could confirm the name and if it was a clean license, but it didn't bring up a picture. Not all states have police with direct access to all DMV records including pictures. The guy could have had any DL# and name memorized.
He simply told the guy to unbuckle his seat belt in order for him to get out of the vehicle so he could be detained while verifying who he was. I have no problem with that since he already had two violations (license plate, no license). The officer couldn't just write him a ticket or warning without the guy having a license. So, he was going to make sure he couldn't flee while checking into the guy. The officer was right in trying to do that, as the guy did end up trying to flee.
You think that guy would have his DL# memorized? He didn't have a plate on. He didn't have his license. In Virginia, at least when I lived there, giving a DL# could confirm the name and if it was a clean license, but it didn't bring up a picture. Not all states have police with direct access to all DMV records including pictures. The guy could have had any DL# and name memorized.
He simply told the guy to unbuckle his seat belt in order for him to get out of the vehicle so he could be detained while verifying who he was. I have no problem with that since he already had two violations (license plate, no license). The officer couldn't just write him a ticket or warning without the guy having a license. So, he was going to make sure he couldn't flee while checking into the guy. The officer was right in trying to do that, as the guy did end up trying to flee.
Maybe, but under stress(studies show this) most cops(or anyone else) are even lucky to hit a man size target with a handgun. Now, we are talking about shooting the leg or other small object that might be moving under stress and quickly. Hard to do and may make thing worse.
You don't pull a weapon to threaten or wound. When you pull it then it is meant for one thing.
I think this guy pulled his weapon and fired in the heat of the moment(either by accidental discharge or just lost in that moment in time).
Goodness, there are some misconceptions in this thread.
First of all, there is no such thing as shooting to wound. In fact, a cop saying he shot to wound could be in serious legal trouble, as the standard for firing a weapon requires a certain need for deadly force. Purposely shooting someone in the leg pretty much shows that standard was not met.
Second, there is another reason everyone (including cops) are trained to shoot center mass. It is the easiest target to hit in a split second life or death situation. When your life, or the life of others, is on the line, you shoot that easy target and keep firing until the threat is down and no longer a threat.
Tasers are not used to protect the cop. Tasers are used to protect the person being arrested. Generally speaking, it is better to be tased when you are resisting arrest than to have the shit beat out of you. I would much rather take a blast of spray or get tased than be beaten with fists and a stick. You would, too.
Officers should only pull their gun in certain situations (other than the obvious when they immediately shoot a threat). Certain high risk traffic stops, when executing a high-risk warrant and searching that property, blindly entering a potentially dangerous situation (think entering a building in which a B&E may be in progress). A suspect will not show their hands, hands in pocket or reaching under a car seat. You get the idea. I have ZERO problem with this officer drawing his handgun when faced with a suspect who is giving every indication he is going to drive off. That is a quickly escalating situation in which the officer may be ran over or dragged, nearby drivers and pedestrians may be struck, etc. There is a decent likelihood deadly force may immediately be needed.
Why did he shoot? Hell if I know. Herdman may very well be right...the cop was jacked on adrenaline, his finger was on the trigger, and something went very wrong. That is not an excuse. That is a good description of manslaughter in this case. Murder? That is a stretch, IMHO.
All that said, one thing stays constant....if you STFU and do as the officer says there is a 99.999999% chance you will not be beaten, sprayed, tased, or shot. It really is that simple. Blacks like to ignore this truth because it spotlights an issue in the black community: a complete lack of respect for authority and social norms has spread like wildfire in that community. Dude made a bad decision and ended up dead. Should he be dead? No. But he started the chain of events that put his ass in a casket.
First of all, there is no such thing as shooting to wound. In fact, a cop saying he shot to wound could be in serious legal trouble, as the standard for firing a weapon requires a certain need for deadly force. Purposely shooting someone in the leg pretty much shows that standard was not met.
Second, there is another reason everyone (including cops) are trained to shoot center mass. It is the easiest target to hit in a split second life or death situation. When your life, or the life of others, is on the line, you shoot that easy target and keep firing until the threat is down and no longer a threat.
Tasers are not used to protect the cop. Tasers are used to protect the person being arrested. Generally speaking, it is better to be tased when you are resisting arrest than to have the shit beat out of you. I would much rather take a blast of spray or get tased than be beaten with fists and a stick. You would, too.
Officers should only pull their gun in certain situations (other than the obvious when they immediately shoot a threat). Certain high risk traffic stops, when executing a high-risk warrant and searching that property, blindly entering a potentially dangerous situation (think entering a building in which a B&E may be in progress). A suspect will not show their hands, hands in pocket or reaching under a car seat. You get the idea. I have ZERO problem with this officer drawing his handgun when faced with a suspect who is giving every indication he is going to drive off. That is a quickly escalating situation in which the officer may be ran over or dragged, nearby drivers and pedestrians may be struck, etc. There is a decent likelihood deadly force may immediately be needed.
Why did he shoot? Hell if I know. Herdman may very well be right...the cop was jacked on adrenaline, his finger was on the trigger, and something went very wrong. That is not an excuse. That is a good description of manslaughter in this case. Murder? That is a stretch, IMHO.
All that said, one thing stays constant....if you STFU and do as the officer says there is a 99.999999% chance you will not be beaten, sprayed, tased, or shot. It really is that simple. Blacks like to ignore this truth because it spotlights an issue in the black community: a complete lack of respect for authority and social norms has spread like wildfire in that community. Dude made a bad decision and ended up dead. Should he be dead? No. But he started the chain of events that put his ass in a casket.
I don't pretend to know exactly what went on. But put your mother in the car on a bad day in place of the guy that got killed. Are you still going to say, "my mom shouldn't be dead but she started the events that put her in a casket"?
Yep, my mom got stopped for a traffic infraction. She started to pull out in her car and leave the officer standing there, so the police shot and killed her, but she more or less asked for it.
Look the cop messed up. I don't think he set out to go kill a man that day. He lost his mental capacity under stress and/or was not properly trained. Did the guy in the car mess up? Yes. Did he deserve to die? No.
So, am I understanding correctly that you've changed your answer from yes to no regarding this question?...."But put your mother in the car on a bad day in place of the guy that got killed. Are you still going to say, "my mom shouldn't be dead but she started the events that put her in a casket"?
Yes.
But I am pretty sure my mother, the sister of four law enforcement officers, who was raised to respect authority, would not try to drive off during a traffic stop.
I don't believe that either you or herdman would see it that way if your mother was shot and killed for driving away from a traffic stop. Unless of course neither of you love your mother.
It's a moot point, because my mother is not a dumb thug that would would drive off to run from the cops.
And it's a red herring, as my mother has nothing to do with this discussion.
Can you logically argue the deceased did not start this chain of events? Remember, justification of the shooting is not part of this particular argument, as no one is arguing he was justifiably shot.
And it's a red herring, as my mother has nothing to do with this discussion.
Can you logically argue the deceased did not start this chain of events? Remember, justification of the shooting is not part of this particular argument, as no one is arguing he was justifiably shot.
This traffic stop would be unknown to us if a police officer hadn't pulled the trigger and killed a man for taking off in his car. That's the only important thing in this chain of events. Not having a drivers license, not having a car license, and pulling out from a traffic stop and getting shot in the head by an officer is never, in any way, license for anyone to make light of it by saying the victim started the chain of events. Thug or not.
There was nothing improper about the stop.
There was nothing improper about the cop ordering the guy out off the vehicle when he refused to produce his license.
The case gets dicey when the tries to drive off. Was the cops life in danger? Were bystanders on the street in danger? I don't know. You don't know. The video doesn't reflect these issues one way or the other. The only evidence we have on this point are the eyewitnesses and the defendant cop.
Keep two things in mind: a police officer never knows what he is facing when he initiates a traffic stop. Two years ago a young officer in western Ky was murdered when he approached a stopped vehicle. The killer has yet to be identified. A few years ago a lexington police officer was ran over and killed while trying to approach a vehicle. The driver was tried and convicted of murder.
I say all that because this case is not as cut and dry as some of you are making it out to be. I haven't seen or heard any evidence that would justify the shooting in my mind. However, I don't have all the facts, and neither does anyone else at this point.
There was nothing improper about the cop ordering the guy out off the vehicle when he refused to produce his license.
The case gets dicey when the tries to drive off. Was the cops life in danger? Were bystanders on the street in danger? I don't know. You don't know. The video doesn't reflect these issues one way or the other. The only evidence we have on this point are the eyewitnesses and the defendant cop.
Keep two things in mind: a police officer never knows what he is facing when he initiates a traffic stop. Two years ago a young officer in western Ky was murdered when he approached a stopped vehicle. The killer has yet to be identified. A few years ago a lexington police officer was ran over and killed while trying to approach a vehicle. The driver was tried and convicted of murder.
I say all that because this case is not as cut and dry as some of you are making it out to be. I haven't seen or heard any evidence that would justify the shooting in my mind. However, I don't have all the facts, and neither does anyone else at this point.
I knew it. You couldn't do it. Bravo, sir
And I am making light of nothing, just stating the hard facts. The driver escalated the situation, period. You want to know WHY officers are in danger when someone is "pulling out from a traffic stop (a kind way to state what is actually a felony action in most states)?Shit gets real when you are "pulling away from a traffic stop".
Again, I am not saying this was a justified shooting. But the officer pulling his weapon was very justified by the actions of the driver. Without those actions, no one gets shot. I am done pointing out facts to you, until you can argue with logic and not blind political emotion.
Here's my argument..... I'm saying that if it had been your mother who was driving off, you wouldn't be blaming the chain of events. You'd be asking why she deserved to be shot in the head.
And here's my response, if my mom put an officer or the general public in danger by her choices and actions, she deserved to be shot. You can't endanger the lives of others and expect there to be no consequences. To think otherwise is the height of ignorance.
Your response is nonsense. If your mother does 30 mph in a 15 mph school zone, does she deserve to be shot in the head? If she's caught driving under the influence, does she deserve to be shot in the head? If your mother runs a red light, should she be shot in the head?
Is she driving in a manner that poses an immediate threat of severe bodily injury or death to those around her?
Seriously? Of course not, as speeding in a school zone, DUI, and running red lights never poses a threat of severe bodily injury or death to others.
You are an idiot. If my mother was stopped by the police for a traffic infraction and decided to speed off in the middle off the stop, thereby putting the officer and/or public in danger of being killed, she deserves to be shot. Why is that hard for you to understand?
If your mother does 30 mph in a 15 mph school zone, does she deserve to be shot in the head? If she's caught driving under the influence, does she deserve to be shot in the head? If your mother runs a red light, should she be shot in the head?
The problem with your rationale is that there is a clear difference between the basis for the traffic stop and what happened after. If you can't understand that simple aspect of the discussion, I don't know what to tell you.
To answer your question, no one deserves to be killed over a misdemeanor. However, if you attempt to flee the scene in the context of a traffic stop and put the officer or public in danger by doing so, you very well may deserve to be shot. It is a very fact-specific inquiry.
There is NOT a clear difference between pulling out from a traffic stop for an auto license offence, running a red light, speeding in a school zone, and a DUI. They ALL put the public and/or the officer in danger. So, should your mother be shot in the head if she commits either of the 3 crimes I've listed?
Yes, when you pull away from a traffic stop you have a big time f'ing problem. Go ask the district attorney or local sheriff where you live. That changes the ball game. You just went into a felony(or multiple felonies).
Resisting arrest by force. In some states, the crime of resisting arrest is limited to using force against an officer during a detention or arrest. Resisting arrest by force is usually a felony.
If the officer sustains any sort of injury, the defendant can also be convicted of battery against an officer. For more information on this crime, see Battery Against a Police Officer.
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Stop being stupid.
