If you read this board you would think the season is lost. Good thing this is a rebuilding year and so many youngsters are getting playing time in this forgotten season. Where can I buy these crazy pills?
8-1 is an epic failure
- Thread starter zz1038
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If this same scenario played out under Mark Snyder we would be 3-6 at this point and the excuse given would be injuries and young players.
a season the vast majority of schools would love to have.
I went with 9-3 before the season.....I really didn't anticipate the defense being this good.
If you had told me before the season, no Birdsong, no Devon, no VanHorn, no AJL, and no Leggett.....I would have thought 9-3 was to good.
10-2 would be a great season......Of course another CUSA Championship would be greater but unexpected. I think the trip to WKU will be a challenge and we better not overlook MTSU.
If you had told me before the season, no Birdsong, no Devon, no VanHorn, no AJL, and no Leggett.....I would have thought 9-3 was to good.
10-2 would be a great season......Of course another CUSA Championship would be greater but unexpected. I think the trip to WKU will be a challenge and we better not overlook MTSU.
I'm not a Snyder fan but his teams never played a schedule as weak as last year's and this year's. Had he played those schedules I would have expected him to have very close to the same results with the teams he had those years. He would have lost a few more but not many.
No one is saying they are feeling that 8-1 is a lost season. What many of us are saying is that 8-1 or 9-0 is what would be expected at this point and that we have not been very impressive in getting to 8-1. MTSU at 3-5 being a Vegas favorite over us at 8-1 illustrates how unimpressive our team has been. We have a lot of injuries that have contributed to our poor play on the offensive side of the ball and our defense has yet to face an opposing team with a pulse (other than USM). We were lucky to beat Purdue and Kent State which are fodder for most teams and the brightest part of our team, our defense, has been weak against the rush.
No one is saying they are feeling that 8-1 is a lost season. What many of us are saying is that 8-1 or 9-0 is what would be expected at this point and that we have not been very impressive in getting to 8-1. MTSU at 3-5 being a Vegas favorite over us at 8-1 illustrates how unimpressive our team has been. We have a lot of injuries that have contributed to our poor play on the offensive side of the ball and our defense has yet to face an opposing team with a pulse (other than USM). We were lucky to beat Purdue and Kent State which are fodder for most teams and the brightest part of our team, our defense, has been weak against the rush.
i wouldn't say we've been weak against the rush, we're 58th nationally in yards per rush, while not great, is definitely not "weak" in most people's eyes. our total rush defense is 79th, which isn't great at all, but when you consider in terms of rush attempts against we're 7th in the nation, it's not too bad.
i don't get some of you. if all we are gonna do is sit here and high five our greatness this place will dry up pretty fast. there is a lengthy thread "discussing" our second half play the last two games. i don't recall anyone saying the season was "lost". several people seem upset at the thought the team may have played poorly in 3 or 4 out of our last 8 quarters. they want to believe Doc called the dogs off at halftime (doing a complete 180 from last year). that's fine. just because several others think we played poorly (in those quarters) against two of the WORST teams in football doesn't mean we are not happy with the season. as noted above, had we known Litton was going to be the QB in pre season and all the guys we lost, pretty much all of us would have been very happy with 8-1...
I highly doubt Snyder could have done much better in the revamped CUSA than he did in CUSA 2.0. He just didn't have it. Its not like CUSA 2.0 was that much better than it is now. We got blown out under his watch more than I care to count, even by medicore teams. You think he could have taken VT to overtime, how about WVU last time they played in Huntington?? Not a chance. he would be 3 more losses than doc so far this year.
As far as I am concerned this SOS stuff is a different thing. Our SOS during the BP era was not any better on average as it has been under Doc. I don't hear much about that on here. Snyder took over during a tough time and did the best he could.The NCAA penalties hurt him, the recruiting in a couple of BP season left him with no quality depth(yes he had some talented players). Yes of course the schedule was harder then than it is now. All of this made things difficult for MS. However, Are you guys saying some of the BP teams would have went 4-8 playing the same schedule MS had to face? If so then continue, if not then lighten up. This team is similar to the 1998 or maybe the 2000 team. It is what it is and the future looks bright. I think Doc and staff have done a phenomenal job of not only holding it together but of excelling in the midst of adversity. Could these teams have preformed better than some of the ones MS led? Who knows. Could we beat WVU, K-State or Tenn right now? What about last year? IDK, but I am of the opinion Doc has brought us back to our "glory days" like we had under BP. I for one am enjoying the ride on the Big Green Bus!
You do realize we haven't played VT or WVU the last two years or anyone near them? Why would Snyder have 3 more loses this year based on close losses Doc had several years ago? Snyder had some close losses to good teams too. He had KSU at home just like Doc had WVU and both he and Doc blew it with highly questionable decisions. This year's team shows a lot of grit at crunch time (Purdue, Kent) but have yet to put a complete game together. Our OL has been outplayed by the defensive line of nearly everyone we've played. Our QB play has been sporadic (Litton did have a nice game at Charlotte). Our D has had trouble stopping the run. Most of our WRs have not lived up to expectations. DJ stays hurt and the other RBs have been OK, not great. On the positive side, our defense has caused turnovers and made stops in the red zone and we've won 8 of our 9 games.
Exodus started 3 years ago, and we did play VT in Blacksburg 2013 season (I still remember very freshly the no calls and overtime), same season beat Maryland in the Military Bowl and blew ECU out of the water in a game with east division on the line. KSU at home that particular year was much like having Purdue at home this year, they finished with a losing record at 5-6, beating FIU, us, North Texas, Missouri when they really sucked and Kansas.
I don't think anyone is arguing the deficiencies of our team right now, though some positions have good explanations (I hate to use the term excuses). WR is no excuse though, they should be dominating and they haven't been. Litton is a true freshman, heck we would have never gotten a player of his caliber under Snyder, kid is 7-0. Oline been decimated by injuries preventing them from gelling. DLine been inconsistent, couple good games then all of a sudden cant get pressure. No one is their right mind is going to argue about things that can be improved upon. That's all beside my point. You are right, they do have a lot of grit and the best is yet to come from them.
Here are games Snyder would have lost this year: Purdue, Southern Miss, Kent St., Ohio. He had his chances at even medicore P5 teams with K State, Miami (losing year), and completely blown out by halftime from the rest he played. He didn't even compete with them. Competing is my point, not moral victories. There was not a worse feeling than the game being over by halftime, much less losing to NH. His style and recruiting just didn't match the hurdles a school like us face. Under Doc, we have beaten Louisville, Purdue, Md, blown out NIU, started splitting games with ECU, taking VT and WVU to overtime in games that we just didn't close on, some if this before he had all "his" guys in place.
I don't think some of us really remember how bad it was under Snyder.
food for thought... take it how you will...
Year Record (SoS) Final Sagarin Rank (gives an idea of record's quality; see '01 vs '02)
1998 12-1 (118) 54
1999 13-0 (111) 13
2000 8-5 (101) 74
2001 11-2 (93) 34
2002 11-2 (113) 53
2003 8-4 (84) 56
2004 6-6 (112) 106
avg SoS 105
2005 4-7 (86) 106
2006 5-7 (88) 102
2007 3-9 (73) 125
2008 4-8 (77) 101
2009 7-6 (86) 79
avg SoS 82
2010 5-7 (91) 113
2011 7-6 (56) 79
2012 5-7 (104) 107
2013 10-4 (122) 61
2014 13-1 (124) 23
avg SoS 99
something i never thought about before comparing these numbers is how impressive the 2011 season was. by far the most difficult schedule we have played and finished with a Bowl win...
Year Record (SoS) Final Sagarin Rank (gives an idea of record's quality; see '01 vs '02)
1998 12-1 (118) 54
1999 13-0 (111) 13
2000 8-5 (101) 74
2001 11-2 (93) 34
2002 11-2 (113) 53
2003 8-4 (84) 56
2004 6-6 (112) 106
avg SoS 105
2005 4-7 (86) 106
2006 5-7 (88) 102
2007 3-9 (73) 125
2008 4-8 (77) 101
2009 7-6 (86) 79
avg SoS 82
2010 5-7 (91) 113
2011 7-6 (56) 79
2012 5-7 (104) 107
2013 10-4 (122) 61
2014 13-1 (124) 23
avg SoS 99
something i never thought about before comparing these numbers is how impressive the 2011 season was. by far the most difficult schedule we have played and finished with a Bowl win...
That's debatable as Snyder didn't play as many MAC teams and can't be weighed the same, just saying. The only thorn in Doc's side is Ohio, winning 2 and losing 4, and losing to BGSU once.
Snyder was 1-0 against the MAC (17-10 over Bugs 2009). 2-0 if you give him credit for 2009 MCB 21-17 over Ohio...
Doc is 7-5. the teams he has beaten have a combined record of 33-80. the teams he has lost to have a combined record of 33-27.
and then there is the KING MAC DADDY Bobby P with a 59-11 record....
Since we're looking at strength of schedule I'd love to see an analysis of average age of teams during the same decades. NOT from a total player standpoint, from a who is currently starting and playing standpoint.
I'd speculate this years team may be one of the youngest since 1971. Their 8-1.
During snides time do you remember we couldn't find a kicker ? Look at the QB doc inherited vs the QB Doc has now. Remember an offense you yawned about the entire game?
Please SPARE me! Snide was sniffing out the grey goose and his next coaching deal the day he arrived. He built nothing , left nothing and whined for 5 years whilst making 600K.
I'd speculate this years team may be one of the youngest since 1971. Their 8-1.
During snides time do you remember we couldn't find a kicker ? Look at the QB doc inherited vs the QB Doc has now. Remember an offense you yawned about the entire game?
Please SPARE me! Snide was sniffing out the grey goose and his next coaching deal the day he arrived. He built nothing , left nothing and whined for 5 years whilst making 600K.
Solich just has Doc's number, accounting for 4 of the 5 loses to MAC schools, though I do think everyone would agree that it should have been 8-4 if Litton had played this years game, but who knows.
I am sure we all say the same thing, I know I do. Difference in coaching styles? Always something crazy happening when we play them, especially crazy turnovers.
MTSU having many of the same problems that we are, injuries, Freshman QB, juggling OL. Biggest difference seems to be level of competition, including WKU and La. Tech resulting in their 5 losses. Could be a donniebrooker...stay tuned
Solich is just Old School enough to know The Herd's tendencies with Legg as the OC and coaches defense to stop those tendencies. Even as a bunch of Non-coaches, we armchair QB's can predict Legg's offense. So, it's no great secret that Solich can figure it out.
We haven't lost the WKU game yet. It's possible we could upset them. They're pretty good but you never know until they actually play the game.
I didn't think we would beat Southern Miss.
hmmmm..... Regular season games @ Michigan State, @ Clemson, @ South Carolina, @ Tennessee, @ UNC, @ WVU, @ K-State, @ Va Tech, @ Ohio State, @ Georgia (did I forget anyone? @ Mizzou?....... not sure I'd agree with your assertion. MAC in those days Toledo, WMU, Urban Meyer BGSU were on par with WKU and La Tech........ Bjowl wins over Top 25 BYU, UofL, Cincy, solid ECU team...... close loss to Ole Miss..
Bob's #10 ranked Motor City Champ team put more kids into the NFL than Doc's teams have total.......Pruett's teams had talent, big time talent!!! Skill position players better than what we have seen the past 3 seasons.... Cato, measured up for sure, but Pennington, Leftwich, Eric Kresser..... Champman, Brandshaw, Moss, Josh Davis, Watts, etc.....we have not seen their equals as of yet. Defensive side of the ball...... Larry McCloud, Rogers Beckett, Paul Toviossi (sp), and many more.
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I'm glad Bevins nailed it because BLEVINS didn't...
I will give Snyder the schedule, it was much tougher than Doc's. But that is it.
You mean to tell me that a guy who didn't even have a proper QB coach let alone a clue on how to run a team, would do equally as good as Doc? That guy's best season was 6-6...amd that year, his final one, was probably one of the most favorable ones we had.
Snyder was the jimmy carter of coaching...a total idiot who would say what he was thinking...
No way in Hell Snyder does better than Doc...at least Doc doesn't run reverses in his own endzone for the first play of the game.
Doc would never doubt his team...Snyder never believed Marshall could ever beat anyone in the P5.
Well considering how shaky the line has been I'm giving the running game an A+ and saying our backs have been great.. Stats don't reflect that but when you take into account they are running behind the Walking Dead that is our Oline.. The backs have been excellent
again, our sos under doc vs bobby p isn't that much difference, like the poster stated. sos by year for pruett starting in '98 (that's as far back as sagarin's usa today archives go):
118, 111, 101, 93, 113, 84, 112
now for doc:
91, 56, 104, 122, 124
you can disagree with this assertion all you want, but you'd be wrong. from 97-00 we played 2 ooc 1a opponents that had a winning record, while clemson was good in 99 for a team that finished .500, south carolina was one of the worst 1a programs at the time. in the mac, toledo, miami, western michigan, all had decent seasons here or there, but the vast majority of the conference was just downright terrible (not that cusa today isn't). in the '97 regular season c conference play we played 2 teams that had winning records, in '98 we played 2 more (cmu finished 6-5, beat fcs, 0-11 kent, 1-10 ball state, 3-8 wmu), in '99 we beat 2 more (7-4 miami and 7-5 wmu).
i think we largely forget how bad the mac was in those days when we joined. it was just absolutely a joke. from 97-99, the golden years, almost half the conference regular season games we played were against teams that finished with 3 or less wins that year, on the flip side we only played 3 teams that won 8 or more games in conference play.
pruett's team had more talent in the starting positions, i won't argue that, but doc's teams by far have more depth of talent. if any one of those guys you listed went down injured, the drop off to their backup was immense. now, we're in a position where we're down to like the 6th string running back, who is having 100 yard rushing games, etc.
Another thread bashing our 8-1 record
This shit is annoying now, last year I couldn't enjoy the season because of ESPN.
This year I can't enjoy the season because our own fans bitching problem. I swear NOTHING will make the majority of this fanbase happy, you guys hold onto this WV Glass half empty mindset and it's annoying.
Some of us actually see the silver lining. 8-1, 7-0 with a true freshman. A ton of freshman and sophomores stepping up and playing big and playing major minutes for us. We had some key players either have season ending injuries or be dismissed and we still haven't missed a beat.
Someone said Mark Snyders team would have went 8-1, that is a lie. As soon as injuries happened to key players, his teams folded like a cheap tent. His teams had no leadership, no accountability, and no will to win games.
This shit is annoying now, last year I couldn't enjoy the season because of ESPN.
This year I can't enjoy the season because our own fans bitching problem. I swear NOTHING will make the majority of this fanbase happy, you guys hold onto this WV Glass half empty mindset and it's annoying.
Some of us actually see the silver lining. 8-1, 7-0 with a true freshman. A ton of freshman and sophomores stepping up and playing big and playing major minutes for us. We had some key players either have season ending injuries or be dismissed and we still haven't missed a beat.
Someone said Mark Snyders team would have went 8-1, that is a lie. As soon as injuries happened to key players, his teams folded like a cheap tent. His teams had no leadership, no accountability, and no will to win games.
A couple of observations abut the comments above:
1) NO ONE said Snyder would be 8-1 against this schedule. He could have been anywhere from 3-6 to 9-0. What was said was that he probably wouldn't be but a few losses away. My best guess would be 6-3 or 7-2.
2) In my opinion, any of Pruett's teams from the 1997 IAA champs through his last 6-6 2004 team would beat this year's Herd team. Therefore, I would predict any of those teams to be at least 8-1 with this schedule.
3) I am very happy we are 8-1 at this point. Before the season started I felt Purdue would beat us and possibly Ohio U. After watching USM improve I feared we may lose that game too. So 8-1 or 7-2 is what I expected. We still have 3 regular season games to play. I hope we win all 3 but WKU is a better team than us right now, MTSU may be just as good, and FIU is struggling but talented.
4) Our record is great but we are currently an average FBS team with an easy schedule. I'm hoping for improvement, especially on the OL.
1) NO ONE said Snyder would be 8-1 against this schedule. He could have been anywhere from 3-6 to 9-0. What was said was that he probably wouldn't be but a few losses away. My best guess would be 6-3 or 7-2.
2) In my opinion, any of Pruett's teams from the 1997 IAA champs through his last 6-6 2004 team would beat this year's Herd team. Therefore, I would predict any of those teams to be at least 8-1 with this schedule.
3) I am very happy we are 8-1 at this point. Before the season started I felt Purdue would beat us and possibly Ohio U. After watching USM improve I feared we may lose that game too. So 8-1 or 7-2 is what I expected. We still have 3 regular season games to play. I hope we win all 3 but WKU is a better team than us right now, MTSU may be just as good, and FIU is struggling but talented.
4) Our record is great but we are currently an average FBS team with an easy schedule. I'm hoping for improvement, especially on the OL.
Like I said, Snyders teams wouldn't have a 8-1 or even a winning record at all. That is the point I am trying to make.
Any college team with Randy Moss and Chad Pennington should be undefeated. BUT PLEASE CAN WE FREAKING STOP COMPARING TEAMS FROM 20 YEARS AGO AND PLAYED AGAINST 1AA TEAMS TO A TEAM FILLED WITH 1A TALENT AND PLAYS AGAINST MAJORITY 1A schools.
WKU is not a better team then us. They have a better offense then us. And they have a coach that doesn't show mercy like our coaches.
And the OL is decent, but the injures and the revolving door on the right side is a taking its tool
Ha ha wow shoe what button did I push? I never said BP didn't recruit any talent! All I said was that during his time here the SOS was about the same as it has been under DOC. That is a fact that even you can't deny.As far as the teams like Ohio State please refer to herdit44. The MAC was a JOKE in the late 90's. It got better and we are one of the reasons. We shook things up.For the record, we did not play Mizzou under BP.We did however play a Temple team that was so bad that the BE kicked them out of the conference. Like I said I never attacked BP or his teams. For goodness sakes all I pointed out was that BP and Doc played similar SOS. MS actually played a harder SOS and it did contribute to some of his struggles IMO. Could he have done better with an easier schedule ? IDK. Finally, since you brought it up how about this: Under Doc @ Ohio State, Va Tech twice. One of those games we should have won. Two games against WVU, one we should have won.Road win over a P5 Louisville and two games against Purdue a team we split with. May I remind you we also Beat Maryland in a bowl game. Doc has a 3-6 record against P5 teams. BP had a 4-9 record. Oh by the way the 2011 Herd under Doc played 2 C-USA teams that were in the Top 25 USM and UH. Never did we play 2 ranked conference foes while we were in the MAC in one season. We did play a ranked UT in 2001 and a ranked Miami in 2003 but only those 2 and never 2 in one season from the same conference.
Regardless of record, anything besides a conference championship is a disappointment. Even 10-2 WITH a conference title is less than I expected, but hey, I would take 10-2 and a conference title without complaining.
Haha, well with a team like Chad's with one of the best WR's ever to play the game...along with a solid team in general...versus our freshman run banged up 8-1 squad? Well no crap they'd likely win.
That's about as dumb of a statement as I have heard...but then again, people like you, live in the past...
Comparing our current team to a team damn near 20 years old...get over it, pruett isn't coming back. He abandoned the ship and left the program sinking...he likely prays that Doc doesn't go unbeaten or gets an Access Bowl slot...cause then his legacy would be eclipsed.
But hey, with your observational knowledge of the game of collegiate sports...because, you are a coach and all...you are right...because, just since records alone, and not, you know, talent and coaching, would pruett's teams win, right?
Oh wait, actually no...pruett's coaching approach was going out of style...if he took over for Doc's team, hell, back in 2014...he'd likely drop some games, purely based on his coaching and his approach. The game has changed...I'd suggest you change out the picture frame of Chad, pruett, and Randy...you can still wear your Marshall pajamas and kiss the picture goodnight when you go to bed...but change it out because the entire approach to the game, is different now.
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