Boozin' Preacher Strikes Again

[wvkeeper(HN)]

Originally posted by banker6796:
I would never argue the Bible with someone who actually spent a large portion of their life dedicated to learning it, not just from self study, but through formal education. Likewise, I don't argue weather with Raoul or science with GK. You have to know the arenas in which you are best suited for battle.

Our pastor has his masters from Temple Baptist and his Doctor of Ministry from Dallas Theological. I'm not afraid to ask questions, and follow up questions, but at the end of the day he's just too well versed, no pun intended, for me to think I have any better interpretation of scripture. Keep, he would argue with you that, while wine of biblical times certainly contained alcohol, the level was significantly less than today's version do to differences in how it was made. He would agree that drinking is not a sin, or a violation of scripture, if not done in excess. However, he would also point out that if you don't drink you don't have to worry where the point of excess actually occurs.

To the first point about alcohol content, the way wine is made has not really changed all that much throughout the centuries. Fermentation is a simple, natural chemical process. Much like the making of spirits or even beer, making wine it is not exactly rocket science. However what separates table wine from the $50,000/bottle stuff is the quality of the grape and the winemaster's talent. So in other words the idea that we have more "pure" wine today is just not historically viable. .

To the second one no one I know, most certainly not me, thinks the bible commands the drinking of alcohol. We merely believe that Christians are at liberty to imbibe or not, and just like with any other thing if you cannot drink without doing it to excess than you should absolutely abstain. All good things in moderation.

One passage that often gets overlooked in these discussions is Luke 7:33-34. See the contrast made between the behavior of John the Baptist and Jesus:

"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!"

John the Baptist is marked out for his abstaining from wine (because of his Nazarite vow), yet Jesus is called a "winebibber" (which means drunkard) because he does drink wine, with alcohol. It is something worth noting.

 

[HFF-SLTX]

Interesting thread. I am a member of the Church of Christ. We are probably viewed along the lines of the Southern Baptists in many ways. Here are my .02 on it.

The use of wine in the Bible is well documented. As Keep pointed out, most instances illustrate and highlight not being drunk, versus moderate consumption.

The qualifications of Elders (as mentioned in 1 Timothy Chapter 3) are that they are not given to wine. The qualifications of Deacons (as mentioned in the same chapter) are that they are not given to much wine.

I do not know of any verses that command alcohol be used in worship service. Nor do I know where we are commanded to use alcohol in any aspect of our lives.

Is that saying we can't? Nope, I personally believe we will be judged on our intent and actions in regards to alcohol. Heck, you can probably remove "alcohol" and insert any other word there and it would suffice also.

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

(I dealt with the 1 Timothy 3:3 issue in a response to BC, suffice to say "given to wine" means drunkenness. The Greek word for "wine" is not even used in that verse)

To the use of alcohol in worship we use it in the Lord's Supper because that is what Jesus used in the Upper Room and what Paul commanded to be used in his words to the Corinthian church in 1 Cor 11. If you notice in that chapter (I will link to the relevant section below) the problem is the people are getting drunk off the wine meant for the Lord's Supper, instead of using it for its set aside purpose. You cannot become drunk off non-fermented grape juice. So it would seem odd to tell people to stop using the love feast of the Lord's Supper as an opportunity to be drunkards if no wine was present.

We use a nice red wine, that is not too sweet.


I am a Reformed Presbyterian who believes that the bible commands us to not use instruments in worship and only sing the Psalms of David, so I know all about being a "stranger" on these subjects.

This post was edited on 12/30 9:03 AM by wvkeeper(HN)

LinkI

 

[i am herdman]

Having grown up in WV and then moving away a decade or so ago, I don't think this argument is completely a religious argument. I think there is a cultural component. I have never seen a place that is more against drinking, even a single beer or glass of wine, than I have in the WV area(surrounding Appalachia as well). That includes the areas of the South.

I think from a young age one of the sins of all sins was drinking. Even just one beer, was frowned upon and would almost get you shunned.

I think it is as much a cultural thing as a religious thing.

 

[ThunderCat98]

This^^^^

At the end of the day, the Baptist view on alcohol consumption in the Bible Belt is a case of (1) misinterpreted scripture, and (2) a carryover from prohibition-era cultural beliefs.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[big_country90]

This is an issue I simply don't believe strongly enough to belabor. Keeper is much more versed in the Bible, but I still feel the Bible speaks aganst it in numerous verses. I simply dont know what the right answer is, so I refrain from use of alcohol altogether. Luckily, it's never been a temptation for me. I simply have no desire to drink. I wish I could say the same for eating unhealthy foods.

Keep, one more thing. When was the last time you got drunk or felt like you had a few too many?

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

Apparently herdman has never been to Utah.

Dammit Keeper, you had me all set to move to Denver and take up the herb again
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

Like actually drunk?

Probably at my youngest sister's wedding in 2010.


I'd recommend re-reading Matthew 15 and then think about the wisdom of creating non-Scriptural boundaries for others.

 

[GK4Herd]

I wonder how many of you arrived at your present thoughts based on where life led you? BC....could it be that as a person growing up and becoming a man life never led you to the need or desire to drink and you now wrap religious doctrine around it to sate your ego? When you condemn others for drinking are you really saying....look at me I'm the righteous one? And those whose life led them to acquiring a taste for alcohol...do you not interpret scripture to justify your own behavior?


I ask this because I believe man is very egocentric and without self-awareness they don't realize that their beliefs and practices are largely to feed their own egos.

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

Just speaking for myself, while raised in a nominal Christian home (went to church, but not a "religious" upbringing in a strict sense) I wouldn't say I became a "Christian" until my mid-20's. I arrived at my current views primarily through personal study and mentorship. I had a pretty radical change in my understanding of the Bible and its authority after I had started seminary (summer of '07) at a "moderate" school. Switched to a more "conservative" seminary that fall.

 

[big_country90]

Originally posted by GK4Herd:
I wonder how many of you arrived at your present thoughts based on where life led you? BC....could it be that as a person growing up and becoming a man life never led you to the need or desire to drink and you now wrap religious doctrine around it to sate your ego? When you condemn others for drinking are you really saying....look at me I'm the righteous one? And those whose life led them to acquiring a taste for alcohol...do you not interpret scripture to justify your own behavior?


I ask this because I believe man is very egocentric and without self-awareness they don't realize that their beliefs and practices are largely to feed their own egos.

I was always raised not to drink. My dad is a preacher and always taught us it was a sin to drink. In my adult life, a lot of my views have morphed. I question a lot of things, including the entire concept of Christianity. I still don't drink, but it's not for a lack of opportunity. I went to WVU, a party school. Virtually every one of my friends drink. Hanging out with them has privided me many chances. But like I said earlier, my lack of drinking is a result of being turned off by alcohol and not so much a religious thing, while 10-15 years ago it was probably more of a religious aversion.

My main point with keeper is that he, and many other Christians, believe drinking in moderation is ok, but not getting drunk. All the while those same people get drunk, sometimes regularly. Don't you find that somewhat hypocritical?

 

[i am herdman]

Originally posted by Raoul Duke MU:
Apparently herdman has never been to Utah.

Dammit Keeper, you had me all set to move to Denver and take up the herb again


Posted from Rivals Mobile

Nobody ever said there were not exceptions to the rules.

Plus Mormons belong to a cult. You know there are large pockets of Mormons in other states. They can be mean people. Have you seen BYU's football team? They were slugging out with Memphis this year. Also, they were some drunk rude bastards when we played them back in 99. Hammered right behind us and jerks. They stick together more than Jews. They are all up in each others business and private lives. They have some weird stuff going on that religion. They pick who you marry and the old people manage the money and you have to pool the money together and all kinds of stuff.
This post was edited on 12/30 1:15 PM by i am herdman

 

[i am herdman]

Originally posted by big_country90:

Originally posted by GK4Herd:
I wonder how many of you arrived at your present thoughts based on where life led you? BC....could it be that as a person growing up and becoming a man life never led you to the need or desire to drink and you now wrap religious doctrine around it to sate your ego? When you condemn others for drinking are you really saying....look at me I'm the righteous one? And those whose life led them to acquiring a taste for alcohol...do you not interpret scripture to justify your own behavior?


I ask this because I believe man is very egocentric and without self-awareness they don't realize that their beliefs and practices are largely to feed their own egos.

I was always raised not to drink. My dad is a preacher and always taught us it was a sin to drink. In my adult life, a lot of my views have morphed. I question a lot of things, including the entire concept of Christianity. I still don't drink, but it's not for a lack of opportunity. I went to WVU, a party school. Virtually every one of my friends drink. Hanging out with them has privided me many chances. But like I said earlier, my lack of drinking is a result of being turned off by alcohol and not so much a religious thing, while 10-15 years ago it was probably more of a religious aversion.

My main point with keeper is that he, and many other Christians, believe drinking in moderation is ok, but not getting drunk. All the while those same people get drunk, sometimes regularly. Don't you find that somewhat hypocritical?

How about Christians who dip and chew tobacco?

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

BC, asking honestly.

Have I in this thread ever advocated drunkenness as a lifestyle choice or as a pattern of behavior that should be lauded? Is it a sin to drink? No. Is it a sin to be drunk? Yes.

It is possible to have a drink or two and not be drunk. I may not be a big guy (5'6" 200lbs, I'm stocky, not fat) but I have a constitution and genetic make-up that allows me to have a tolerance higher than many others. So I can have 3 or 4 beers (real beer, 5%, etc..) or one or two drams of whisky and not even be the littlest bit tipsy.

Some people cannot have one without having twenty, and those people should stay away from booze at all times as they do not have the ability to control their desires. Just as with any other sin.

 

[CockyHerd]

Originally posted by wvkeeper(HN):
BC, asking honestly.

Have I in this thread ever advocated drunkenness as a lifestyle choice or as a pattern of behavior that should be lauded? Is it a sin to drink? No. Is it a sin to be drunk? Yes.

It is possible to have a drink or two and not be drunk. I may not be a big guy (5'6" 200lbs, I'm stocky, not fat) but I have a constitution and genetic make-up that allows me to have a tolerance higher than many others. So I can have 3 or 4 beers (real beer, 5%, etc..) or one or two drams of whisky and not even be the littlest bit tipsy.

Some people cannot have one without having twenty, and those people should stay away from booze at all times as they do not have the ability to control their desires. Just as with any other sin.

Question from the fear based church upbringing of my youth.

You admit to having too much to drink in 2010. A sin that I assume you repented for the following morning.

Now let's assume that during the ride home from the reception your car (You're a passenger) is hit head on and you were killed.

You hadn't had the time to repent for your sin.......Heaven or Hell for you?

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

Well considering I am fairly confident that wasn't the "only" sin I committed that night, or in the car, etc.. the truth of the matter is whether or not I became intoxicated one night in 2010 has little bearing on my status before a Holy and Righteous God.

I always try and keep some of things in mind:

1) I am saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10)


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
2) Though I am a new man in Christ Jesus I still sin (1 John 1:8-10, 2:1-6)


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us...My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
3) God's grace through Christ and His blood are not a license for sin (Romans 6:1-6)



What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

[i am herdman]

Originally posted by CockyHerd:

Originally posted by wvkeeper(HN):
BC, asking honestly.

Have I in this thread ever advocated drunkenness as a lifestyle choice or as a pattern of behavior that should be lauded? Is it a sin to drink? No. Is it a sin to be drunk? Yes.

It is possible to have a drink or two and not be drunk. I may not be a big guy (5'6" 200lbs, I'm stocky, not fat) but I have a constitution and genetic make-up that allows me to have a tolerance higher than many others. So I can have 3 or 4 beers (real beer, 5%, etc..) or one or two drams of whisky and not even be the littlest bit tipsy.

Some people cannot have one without having twenty, and those people should stay away from booze at all times as they do not have the ability to control their desires. Just as with any other sin.

Question from the fear based church upbringing of my youth.

You admit to having too much to drink in 2010. A sin that I assume you repented for the following morning.

Now let's assume that during the ride home from the reception your car (You're a passenger) is hit head on and you were killed.

You hadn't had the time to repent for your sin.......Heaven or Hell for you?

Didn't Pearl Jam write a song about this?

 

[big_country90]

Originally posted by wvkeeper(HN):
Well considering I am fairly confident that wasn't the "only" sin I committed that night, or in the car, etc.. the truth of the matter is whether or not I became intoxicated one night in 2010 has little bearing on my status before a Holy and Righteous God.

...

3) God's grace through Christ and His blood are not a license for sin (Romans 6:1-6)



What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

These two comments are contradictory. You knowingly sinned, and then knowingly sinned some more, feeling as if it won't matter, then posted that you don't have a license to sin.

Of course, your belief that you are hand selected to go to heaven regardless of what you do does give you a license to sin and renders all of this moot, right?

This post was edited on 12/30 4:45 PM by big_country90

 

[CockyHerd]

Originally posted by big_country90:

Originally posted by wvkeeper(HN):
Well considering I am fairly confident that wasn't the "only" sin I committed that night, or in the car, etc.. the truth of the matter is whether or not I became intoxicated one night in 2010 has little bearing on my status before a Holy and Righteous God.

...

3) God's grace through Christ and His blood are not a license for sin (Romans 6:1-6)




What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

These two comments are contradictory. You knowingly sinned, and then knowingly sinned some more, feeling as if it won't matter, then posted that you don't have a license to sin.

Of course, your belief that you are hand selected to go to heaven regardless of what you do does give you a license to sin and renders all of this moot, right?


This post was edited on 12/30 4:45 PM by big_country90

So basically the same question.......

You've been a good christian your whole life....Saved and baptized.

You're out one night at the local pub. You have a few too many and as you exit the pub you step off the curb and get hit by a bus. On top of that, while in the pub you coveted your neighbor's wife.

Heaven or Hell?

 

[big_country90]

No clue, Cocky. But a "good Christian" wouldnt be doing certain things to begin with.

God would ultimately decide.

 

[ThunderCat98]

If the perSon had a relationship with Christ, they are saved. You don't lose your salvation because you forgot to ask for forgiveness re: a certain sin. If that were the case, no one would go to heaven. To think otherwise is a position that presupposes we have to do something and keep doing something in order to obtain salvation, add opposed to it coming from God's grace.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

I fully admit I get kinda drunk about once a month. I get drunk and watch old car race and wrasslin' videos online. At 43 years old, that is my idea of a party.

Is that a sin? Sure. Do I think I am going to hell for it? I figure God can forgive me for that, He has forgiven me for far worse.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[raleighherdfan]

I figure if the disciples can have a little too much wine at the last supper, pass out while Jesus is praying in the garden, and still be considered Saints then.....I will probably be ok with enjoying a fabulously crafted libation every now and then.

I always did laugh at the ministers who claimed "grape juice", "lower alcohol" explanations (excuses). Can anyone really believe that the Son of God, descendent of streets of gold, would waste time turning water into Lambrusco? That is the ultimate sin. No way the King of Jews is drinking that purple colored bath water. He is drinking the best.

 

[wvkeeper(HN)]

Originally posted by big_country90:

Originally posted by wvkeeper(HN):
Well considering I am fairly confident that wasn't the "only" sin I committed that night, or in the car, etc.. the truth of the matter is whether or not I became intoxicated one night in 2010 has little bearing on my status before a Holy and Righteous God.

...

3) God's grace through Christ and His blood are not a license for sin (Romans 6:1-6)



What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

These two comments are contradictory. You knowingly sinned, and then knowingly sinned some more, feeling as if it won't matter, then posted that you don't have a license to sin.

Of course, your belief that you are hand selected to go to heaven regardless of what you do does give you a license to sin and renders all of this moot, right?


This post was edited on 12/30 4:45 PM by big_country90

1) See this is where one of the differences between your understanding of sin and mine. I understand that as long as I remain in this body I will still fall short of the glory of God, will always be in need of forgiveness of sin. No one said sin "doesn't matter", it should be grievous to us.

I wholeheartedly concur with Paul in Romans 7:22-25:


For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

and David in Psalm 51:1-10

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Those are the earnest prayers of the Christian, who knows that he is a sinner saved by grace, by the shed blood of the lamb alone. There is no point in the life of a believer where he will ever be at the place where he does not and cannot sin, that is one of the blessings of the heavenly places, we will no longer have a will to sin, but only a will to work to God's glory.

2) On the "predestination" front, God does not choose because He foresees the life/faith of an individual. If that was the case none would be saved. Salvation comes by Faith Alone, in Christ Alone, through Grace Alone. As Jesus says in John 6:65, "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

3) As was said previously one of the things Christians must do is examine themselves constantly and, through the inward conviction of the Holy Spirit, be putting to death the old man and living in the new man. The fact Christian's sin and still stumble, should not be a surprise to even the casual reader of the Bible.





This post was edited on 12/30 8:05 PM by wvkeeper(HN)

 

[MUDrumAlum]

things i have learned from this thread:

Grapes of the ancient world had lower sugar content than what we have now, or their yeast sucked. One of the two. Or both.

Jesus drank O'douls and Welches.

If i were close enough, I would attend Keep's church.