Butch Jones
- Thread starter MR_PiCk6
- Start date
Not sure. I'm not sure he's that great of a coach. All if his success came from taking over for Brian Kelly. Kelly built the teams then Butch took over.
I don’t necessarily think he’s a great coach but he won 11 games at Central Michigan then had a couple 9 win seasons at Tennessee. Also factor in that he never had a losing record at CM along with the fact he had only 3 losing seasons in 11 years (strung across three programs) and I do believe we would’ve been in a better position right now had Butch Jones came to Huntington.
He'd have either failed in Huntington or spent 1-2 years here max before moving up to a slightly better job.
At that point he’d done nothing but build programs up, so we’d have to believe he’d have done the same here.
As for your other statement, I think that’s best case for everyone..
Butch rebuilds into a 10 win team then bolts for a bigger program, whereas we are elevated to now have the ability to hire a better coach than we expected. It would’ve just been up to the administration to do their jobs..
He won big at CMU like he did at Cincy because he took over teams that Brian Kelly had built up. Butch followed Kelly pretty much the entire notable part of his career.
Kelly digs CMU out of the cellar leaves for Cincy. Then Butch takes over and rides it out.
Kelly turn CIncy into top10 team leave for Notre Dame then Butch takes over and rides it out to Tennessee where he couldn't replicate the success he had at either CMU or Cincy.
Butch had one notable season at CMU and only won 10 games once during his time at UC. Butch's average season record over his 11 years was 8-5. It's pretty much going to be the same as we have now.
As I originally stated, I don’t think Butch is a great coach but if your telling me he took UT from out of the dumps to back to back 9-4 seasons, in his last two full seasons, and he couldn’t win 10 games here.. I’d have to strongly disagree.
At that point? He had only coached at CMU where he rode Kelly's coattails and still only went 8-6, 8-6, 11-2.
He didn't build a single FBS program up. He took over after Brian Kelly built them up. Even after Kelly turned Cincy into a perennial top25 team ending his time there with at top10 finish, Butch took over and went 4-8, 10-3, and 9-3. When he finally took over a team that was all him at Tennessee he went 5-7, 7-6, 9-4, 9-4, 4-6. In 11 seasons Jones won 10 game or twice. 2009 (11-2) and 2011 (10-3).
There is nothing that says Butch Jones would have been any better of a hire than Doc.
His last season was 4-6. He just isn't a very good coach and not much better than what we have now. The whole purpose of change is to improve your situation. Butch Jones would not have been much of an improvement over Doc and even if he was it would be marginal. \
If he was even a decent HC, he'd have a job as a HC somewhere. He doesn't. He's been an assistant down in Bama where he was hired as an intern coach and now is a special assistant to the head coach.
Yes, correction I included Cincy.
Bottom line, do you believe Doc could win 9 games in Knoxville, anytime post Fulmer? Because Jones accomplished it twice.
Multiple programs have reached out to Butch within the last few years with Butch declining all interviews, so it’s not as if he’s damaged goods or no one wants him.
2010-2014 Doc. Not 2015-Present Doc. When Doc came he still had his recruiting reputation. He proved that with a 54th ranked class in 2011. Had he been at BCS/P5 school with any name recognition I think he could have manufactured some good classes and had success. Again you're asking if Doc could recreate mediocrity. That's what Butch Jones is. The SEC East wasn't exactly it's strongest during Jones' tenure either.
Yea I don't believe that. The last rumor was him joining the staff at Maryland in 2018 and that fell through. I have a hard time believe Jones would turn down a HC gig so that he can remain and intern/special assistant.
Maybe your right, maybe I’m wrong.
Its just nice to see debate from both sides without someone lashing out in somewhat of a personal attack or one of us acting as if they create the game of football or founded this program.
Appreciate it brother.
Here's a way to look at it, to understand both the immediate and long-term effects of Butch Jones:
Central Michigan University:
2000: 2-9
2001: 3-8
2002: 4-8
2003: 3-9
Brian Kelly is Hired
2004: 4-7
2005: 6-5
2006: 9-4
Brian Kelly leaves, Butch Jones is Hired
2007: 8-6
2008: 8-5
2009: 11-2
Butch Jones Leaves
2010: 3-9
2011: 3-9
2012: 7-6
2013: 6-6
2014: 7-6
2015: 7-6
2016: 6-7
2017: 8-5
2018: 1-11
I agree with the last part.
That CMU season, granted, he won the MAC but with an 8-6 record.
Among those losses was to NDSU. I know, NDSU is very good and is used to winning against the FBS but...CMU LOST BY 30!!!
At UT, he had a chance to show if he could coach and he had all the resources available to a coach at an SEC school who wants to win.
He didn't...unless you count life, UT football wins at that
I think Doc could have held his own at UT. He had everything he needed to win there. He was familiar with their recruiting ground and he also had some solid coordinators as well.
Eventually he either gets fired or resigns, probably after 2019, after fan frustration and not being able to win the east more often and they find someone else.
Not really. He had success at the two jobs where he followed Brian Kelly, but in the one job where he was tasked with renovating a program in distress, he did pretty poorly.
Also, I think the notion of smaller schools having upward mobility from the hiring of up-and-coming coaches is overstated. Usually asking "What if we had hired....?" hypotheticals are a moot point, since any coach on the rise that would pass through Marshall would take their first opportunity out of it, and the bump would be short lived. (See CMU chart above)
Mid-majors only change their destiny when the "Secret Sauce" is proprietary - the institution's decision to invest in athletics or relax oversight and restrictions that might keep a coach from cheating.
So assuming Butch comes and wins 9-10 games a year here, let’s say for two years..
Yes, Butch would then be a sought after coach and would likely jump to a bigger program.
My point is that could help us too, as other coaches could see those opportunities too. But not now..
Now we would be lucky to get a position coach to follow Doc, IMO.
This program has hit rock bottom..
8-5 with a bowl loss stings, but I would venture to say that having your whole team die in a plane crash has gotta be pretty close.
8-5 with a bowl loss stings, but I would venture to say that having your whole team die in a plane crash has gotta be pretty close.
I’m not even sure what to say to either of these?
1) It's generally wise as a neophyte Marshall fan to avoid saying "rock bottom," since many of our fans can remember the real thing.
2) The end of Marshall's greatest period of success in school history culminated with the hiring of a position coach (who was replaced five years later by a position coach).
2) The end of Marshall's greatest period of success in school history culminated with the hiring of a position coach (who was replaced five years later by a position coach).
I think it’s a given that we’re discussing the actual on field product, not somehow relating or comparing poor on field production with legitimate tragedy.
I think you’ve misunderstood my statement or are reaching to make it mean something it didn’t.
If anybody wants Butch again, our job will be open in 9 months, so we can make another run at him. He's not getting another P5 gig right now, so could be another option for us to look at when Doc goes at best 5-7 next year and gets the early retirement heave hoe.
A few others I think we should look at:
Phil Longo (OC UNC)
Sean Lewis (Kent HC)
Shane Beamer (OK Assoc HC)
A few others I think we should look at:
Phil Longo (OC UNC)
Sean Lewis (Kent HC)
Shane Beamer (OK Assoc HC)
Shane Beamer isn’t coming, but he would be a great hire.
I think Beamer might look at us (I'm a very realistic herd fan btw). He makes $450k right now, so we could give him a healthy pay raise, along with experience as a head coach in a top 15 G5 program. It'll be very hard for him to get a P5 job without having any coordinator experience in my opinion. If he does well at MU for 3-5 years, he could the be a hot item for a P5 job. I just think P5 AD's would be hesitant to hire him right now, needs to go to a place like us first.
No matter who we get, we need someone who is young, energetic, likes to interact with fans, and just gets the excitement back in herd football. We're about as stale as a 6mo old loaf of bread right now.
Beamer is Co OC at Oklahoma, making $435K...
I’m all for trying to lure him out of Norman but I can’t fathom a scenario where he leaves them for Huntington.. just not realistic to me.
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Considering how bad they had gotten, Doc got MU to a bowl game in year 2. Regressed slightly, then he had multiple 10 win seasons. The 3-9 disaster is forgiven since he would have had success in seasons prior. However, in 2019, he doesn't get more done and leaves or is fired. I think he could have lasted 8 years or so. Just the first 3 years were re-building years and he would've gotten UT to a bowl game in one of those.
Uhm...to not be a drama queen about the football program.
Not up to par? Absolutely.
The worst ever it has been since it has existed or as you say, "rock bottom" with an 8 win season?
Not really.
In his first three years at Marshall, Doc had a pair of 5-7 seasons and a 7-6 season.. with one bowl appearance. Meanwhile in Knoxville, Butch had seasons with 5 wins, 7 wins, 9 wins in his first three seasons. Once you take into account the level of competition, it’s laughable to compare the two within that span.
While I agree Doc wouldn’t have last 3 years, you’re underselling Docs ability to recruit, at least at that time..
Rock bottom does not have a win or lose requirement. It’s a state that is achieved when your team is simply going thru the motions because they’ve been told, most of the time they’ve been on campus, that they aren’t good enough to reach their potential. Agree with it or not, we all know it’s where this programs mind state is..
If you don’t believe it, talk to a mod about it and hear the gospel per Doc or Hammrick. Again, I don’t even blame the mods, it’s easy to see this is purely the administration feeding these lines down.
Discount the newbie if you wish but sometimes the fresh eye catches what the trained eye missed.
We did get one other guy from Norman that worked out pretty well.
Then why ask about any "Trickett love"? After Doc, I imagine most Herd fans want no more to do with the "ChickenEer" experience?
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