GK, or anybody else: How do flat earthers explain the attack on Pearl Harbor?

[i am herdman]

That is a deep thought. i have been looking at it. An old customer of mine who is highly educated(advanced degrees) has become a Flat Earther. He is serious about it. He even uses GPS technology. He had a deep discussion with me about it. He is convinced. Below is the flat earther model or map. You basically have a pole at the top and the earth is a disc. This guy is convinced and again he knows about airplanes, GPS sat orbits, geoid models and everything like that. He says they are lying to us and what we are told and taught it wrong.

It is was an interesting conversation. So I am like well how did Pearl Harbor happen ? Satellites orbit the Earth? Curvature and refraction when measuring long distances? We know the Earth is a geoid shape right? I guess there is no South Pole? Latitude and Longitude?

 

[HerdandHokies]

Of the many, many, many, many things that absolutely would not work if the earth was flat, I’m not sure how it would’ve precluded Pearl Harbor.

 

[i am herdman]

Of the many, many, many, many things that absolutely would not work if the earth was flat, I’m not sure how it would’ve precluded Pearl Harbor.

Of the many, many, many, many things that absolutely would not work if the earth was flat, I’m not sure how it would’ve precluded Pearl Harbor.

1)Depends on what model you use
2)Even in the model I posted look at the distance involved when it is flattened and think WW2 and the technology they had. They would have basically on the flat earth model above had to go down the western coast of the USA(alaska and canada also) for the sneak attack. With no islands in between

 

[HerdandHokies]

I like that all of Eurasia is about the size of Brazil in the pictured model.

 

[i am herdman]

I like that all of Eurasia is about the size of Brazil in the pictured model.

Don't really know. I think they believe the earth is flattened out like that. With one pole. Not sure what happens when you get to the end. Fall off?

 

[HerdandHokies]

I’ve heard “impassable ice wall” before. But probably the aliens just zap you if you try to cross it. For reasons.

 

[GK4Herd]

It takes a certain amount of wanting to buy into something to believe the earth is flat. The questions I’d ask your “highly educated” acquaintance are…

1. How do you account for different seasons above and below the equator? Why is it summer in the United States, yet winter in Argentina?

2. Why are different star sets visible in different locations? On a flat earth wouldn’t a constellation be visible in all locations?

3. Why do people in different longitudes see sunrises and sunsets at different times? Wouldn’t a flat earth allow New York and Seattle see them at the same time if the earth was flat?

4. Why is it the higher up we climb, the farther we see? Why would a person on a flat earth see a ship on the horizon standing on a hill along the shore sooner than a person looking from the shore?

5. Why does the earth cast a circular shadow on the moon?

You also state that your acquaintance uses gps technology. What exactly keeps the satellites in the air on a flat earth? And since gps satellites are not in a geosynchronous or geostationary orbit and actually rise and set, do they go under the bottom of a flat earth? What’s it look like under there? And what prevents orbital decay on a flat earth without means of acceleration on the satellite itself? On a spherical earth, the speed can be calculated where there’s a perfect balance between the velocity of the satellite and the pull of earth’s gravity. This allows for the orbit on a spherical earth, but not using a flat model. Unless of course Newton and Einstein got it wrong and there’s this whole secret set of physics coming into play.

But what I wonder most from your many degreed acquaintance is what does all the world’s governments stand to gain by promoting the charade of a round earth? Is this somehow linked to microchipped vaccines and controlling the masses by promoting totally ineffective masks in the world’s greatest troll job in history?

I mean…it’s all got to be related, right?

 

[Brushy Bill]

I don't think the earth is flat, but I'm convinced that there is an aether.

 

[i am herdman]

It takes a certain amount of wanting to buy into something to believe the earth is flat. The questions I’d ask your “highly educated” acquaintance are…

1. How do you account for different seasons above and below the equator? Why is it summer in the United States, yet winter in Argentina?

2. Why are different star sets visible in different locations? On a flat earth wouldn’t a constellation be visible in all locations of a flat earth?

3. Why do people in different longitudes see sunrises and sunsets at different times? Wouldn’t a flat earth allow New York and Seattle see them at the same time if the earth was flat?

4. Why is it the higher up we climb, the farther we see? Why would a person on a flat earth see a ship on the horizon standing on a hill along the shore sooner than a person looking from the shore?

5. Why does the earth cast a circular shadow on the moon?

You also state that your acquaintance uses gps technology. What exactly keeps the satellites in the air on a flat earth? And since gps satellites are not in a geosynchronous or geostationary orbit and actually rise and set, do they go under the bottom of a flat earth? What’s it look like under there? And what prevents orbital decay on a flat earth without means of acceleration on the satellite itself? On a spherical earth, the speed can be calculated where there’s a perfect balance between the velocity of the satellite and the pull of earth’s gravity. This allows for the orbit on a spherical earth, but not using a flat model. Unless of course Newton and Einstein got it wrong and there’s this whole secret set of physics coming into play.

But what I wonder most from your many degreed acquaintance is what does all the world’s governments stand to gain by promoting the charade of a round earth? Is this somehow linked to microchipped vaccines and controlling the masses by promoting totally ineffective masks in the world’s greatest troll job in history?

I mean…it’s all got to be related, right?

Good questions. I don't think it has to do with vaccines but he says the govt and power brokers are hiding something. He also mentioned older building particularly govt buildings. He says how did they build those magnificent columns and marbled buildings way back when with perfect geometric cuts and angles.

He is being serious. I think they believe there is a cone under the earth. Like a waffle cone and the earth is like a frisbee on top.

 

[HerdandHokies]

I don't think the earth is flat, but I'm convinced that there is an aether.

Out of curiosity what do you mean by that?

 

[Brushy Bill]

Out of curiosity what do you mean by that?

The aether is the medium that electromagnetic radiation propagates through.

 

[i am herdman]

The aether is the medium that electromagnetic radiation propagates through.

Let's hear more about this. This is pretty cool stuff and I actually enjoyed the conversation with the flat earth guy. He genuinely believes and he makes makes maps for a living.

 

[GK4Herd]

I don't think the earth is flat, but I'm convinced that there is an aether.

This would topple Einstein’s relativity which has been validated time and again. Explain this with the math and you go down in history with both Newton and Einstein. That being said, there are some scientist reviving the idea of an aether to try to explain dark matter. But it certainly hasn’t received any validation through experimentation like Einstein’s relativity that just keeps getting proven over and over again.

 

[i am herdman]

This would topple Einstein’s relativity which has been validated time and again. Explain this with the math and you go down in history with both Newton and Einstein. That being said, there are some scientist reviving the idea of an aether to try to explain dark matter. But it certainly hasn’t received any validation through experimentation like Einstein’s relativity that just keeps getting proven over and over again.

Let's start out in layman's terms before we get to the math. cliff notes of what an aether is. Is this the 5th element?

 

[HerdandHokies]

Usually how I see it defined is that aether is some sort of substance that exists in space, as opposed to there being a a near vacuum (ie, nothing) in space.

I think that, depending on how much you want to twist some meanings, you can make a case that the “nothing” in space has some sort of properties, and call that aether, but some people think there’s an actual substance there. Usually because of the belief that an electromagnetic wave (like light) wouldn’t be able to propagate in a vacuum.

Some weird stuff happens in the vacuum of space when it comes to quantum mechanics and the nature of matter in general.

 

[GK4Herd]

The whole idea was that when light was shown to have the qualities of a wave (read about double slit experiment), that there has to be a medium for those waves to propagate through. Like throwing a rock in water and watching the ripples. Or also with sound in air. It was observed that if you threw a rock into a moving body of water, that the waves moving with the current would flow quicker than the waves moving at other angles from where the rock entered in relation to the observer. So if this is true, then all we need to do to figure out if there is an aether in space for light to propagate in is to measure the speed of light as the earth is moving away from the source and measure it also as it is moving toward the source. Just like the waves from throwing a rock into a moving stream, the light waves measured as the earth moved toward it and away from it should differ by the speed of earth.

So Michelson and Morley set up an experiment. They measured the light as the earth moved in both directions. Their findings? There was no measurable difference between the speed in any direction. This was all explained in Einstein’s relativity which sets a constant for the speed of light. It moves at the exact same speed through a vacuum (space) and that doesn’t change whether the observer is moving toward or away from it. The speed is constant. This is counterintuitive to what we observe on earth under Newtonian observation. If you were on a shore and a ship was moving at 50 mph and someone on the ship threw a baseball to someone else on the ship 50 mph in the same direction as the ship was moving, then to the observer on shore saw the ball going 100 mph. It was only going 50 mph in relation to the observer on the ship. Speed was relative to the observer.

But light was different. It is measured at the exact same speed no matter who the observer is. This completely eliminates the need
for aether for light to propagate. This has been experimentally validated over and over again.

 

[GK4Herd]

But light being a constant speed creates all kinds if weirdness. If light speed is constant, than this creates the phenomena of time dilation in reference to observers In two frames of reference. The twin paradox is the analogy used to explain what happens. If there are two twins that one gets on a spaceship and travels off at the speed of light and one stays on earth…and the space traveler is gone for a period of time, when he returns the one who stayed behind would end up being much older than his light speed traveling brother. This is explained here…

 

[GK4Herd]

And this time dilation has been experimentally validated. One experiment used atomic clocks that were started simultaneously. One remained on the ground while the other was placed in a high speed jet traveling at a high rate of speed. Now this certainly isn’t the speed of light, but there could certainly be a time difference which was predictable and verifiable. Guess what? There was a measurable time difference between the clocks that was predicted using Einstein’s relativity. This has been validated through tons of experiments over the years.

You can read about it here…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele–Keating_experiment

 

[extragreen]

cliff notes of what an aether is

Ask H&H, Duke, or GK. Aether one of them can probably help.

 

[HerdandHokies]

And this time dilation has been experimentally validated. One experiment used atomic clocks that were started simultaneously. One remained on the ground while the other was placed in a high speed jet traveling at a high rate of speed. Now this certainly isn’t the speed of light, but there could certainly be a time difference which was predictable and verifiable. Guess what? There was a measurable time difference between the clocks that was predicted using Einstein’s relativity. This has been validated through tons of experiments over the years.

You can read about it here…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele–Keating_experiment

It’s also validated by the fact that GPS has to take it into account or it doesn’t work.

 

[GK4Herd]

Ask H&H, Duke, or GK. Aether one of them can probably help.

You‘re making “light” of this discussio.

 

[GK4Herd]

It’s also validated by the fact that GPS has to take it into account or it doesn’t work.

Yep…the same weirdness happens near masses and gravitational forces as well as traveling at the speed of light. The movie Interstellar illustrated this when the astronauts visited the planet near the black hole and when they returned to the space ship the fellow astronaut who stayed behind aged decades beyond what the astronauts visiting the planet did.

 

[extragreen]

You‘re making “light” of this discussio.

Time will tell.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

An old customer of mine who is highly educated(advanced degrees) has become a Flat Earther.

Is this one of the ones that won't take the vaccine?

 

[i am herdman]

Is this one of the ones that won't take the vaccine?

I don't think he has..I have so many that have not. But I don't ask. I really don't care.

He is a flat earthen now and he tells me about the design of all these old buildings ans monuments. That is some kind of conspiracy. Like how did they make those magnificent columns and corners. So precise that it would have to be designed by CADD systems and milling machines.

He explained how aircraft and how they fly on the flat earth.

It is some deep shit.

 

[GK4Herd]

It is some deep shit.

It really isn’t. It’s pseudoscience.

 

[i am herdman]

It really isn’t. It’s pseudoscience.

Well the disucis deep and he level to which people likenhim believe it. He sincerely told me prior to his new belief he had been told a lie all through school and growing up. He told me it is all a lie.

 

[HerdandHokies]

It really isn’t. It’s pseudoscience.

It’s interesting in that it’s extremely difficult to create an internally consistent logic where it could possibly work, so watching the mental gymnastics can be interesting.

 

[big_country90]

Usually how I see it defined is that aether is some sort of substance that exists in space, as opposed to there being a a near vacuum (ie, nothing) in space.

I think that, depending on how much you want to twist some meanings, you can make a case that the “nothing” in space has some sort of properties, and call that aether, but some people think there’s an actual substance there. Usually because of the belief that an electromagnetic wave (like light) wouldn’t be able to propagate in a vacuum.

Some weird stuff happens in the vacuum of space when it comes to quantum mechanics and the nature of matter in general.

 

[Rock98Dog]

It takes a certain amount of wanting to buy into something to believe the earth is flat. The questions I’d ask your “highly educated” acquaintance are…

1. How do you account for different seasons above and below the equator? Why is it summer in the United States, yet winter in Argentina?

2. Why are different star sets visible in different locations? On a flat earth wouldn’t a constellation be visible in all locations?

3. Why do people in different longitudes see sunrises and sunsets at different times? Wouldn’t a flat earth allow New York and Seattle see them at the same time if the earth was flat?

4. Why is it the higher up we climb, the farther we see? Why would a person on a flat earth see a ship on the horizon standing on a hill along the shore sooner than a person looking from the shore?

5. Why does the earth cast a circular shadow on the moon?

You also state that your acquaintance uses gps technology. What exactly keeps the satellites in the air on a flat earth? And since gps satellites are not in a geosynchronous or geostationary orbit and actually rise and set, do they go under the bottom of a flat earth? What’s it look like under there? And what prevents orbital decay on a flat earth without means of acceleration on the satellite itself? On a spherical earth, the speed can be calculated where there’s a perfect balance between the velocity of the satellite and the pull of earth’s gravity. This allows for the orbit on a spherical earth, but not using a flat model. Unless of course Newton and Einstein got it wrong and there’s this whole secret set of physics coming into play.

But what I wonder most from your many degreed acquaintance is what does all the world’s governments stand to gain by promoting the charade of a round earth? Is this somehow linked to microchipped vaccines and controlling the masses by promoting totally ineffective masks in the world’s greatest troll job in history?

I mean…it’s all got to be related, right?

Some of those are easy even for round earthers. Vanishing point - you can try this at the beach when you see a ship sailing out to sea - it will disappear over the horizon to the naked eye. Then look through binoculars and you will see that it didn’t disappear, your eye just isn’t equipped to see past a certain distance with any detail. Or maybe you believe a person that is 100 yards away from you on a flat surface is smaller then when they are standing right next to you.

Similar answer for seeing further from a higher elevation, it simply changes the vanishing point. If you lay flat on the ground it decreases the distance to the vanishing point.

Different seasons/sunrise, etc. Flat earthers will tell you that the sun and moon are both much smaller than you have been told and move in an ellipse over flat earth. It again gets back to perspective. The sun moves beyond your vanishing point. Also, the path of this smaller sun is not parallel to the earth’s surface, so it would be closer or further away from the surface at different points. This would give you the seasonal pattern you are used to. Winter where it’s closer, summer where it’s further away.

 

[GK4Herd]

Some of those are easy even for round earthers. Vanishing point - you can try this at the beach when you see a ship sailing out to sea - it will disappear over the horizon to the naked eye. Then look through binoculars and you will see that it didn’t disappear, your eye just isn’t equipped to see past a certain distance with any detail. Or maybe you believe a person that is 100 yards away from you on a flat surface is smaller then when they are standing right next to you.

Similar answer for seeing further from a higher elevation, it simply changes the vanishing point. If you lay flat on the ground it decreases the distance to the vanishing point.

Different seasons/sunrise, etc. Flat earthers will tell you that the sun and moon are both much smaller than you have been told and move in an ellipse over flat earth. It again gets back to perspective. The sun moves beyond your vanishing point. Also, the path of this smaller sun is not parallel to the earth’s surface, so it would be closer or further away from the surface at different points. This would give you the seasonal pattern you are used to. Winter where it’s closer, summer where it’s further away.

The distance to the object increases with elevation. If you build a tower on the shore and view an object on the horizon from the shore to the object and again from the tower to the object, your site lines along with the tower create a right triangle. The site line from the tower to the object would be the hypotenuse which is the longest side of a right triangle. So if ” your eye just isn’t equipped to see certain distances with any detail” then it would be magnified from the tower due to the greater distance. No..the flat earther’s first explanation actually validates a round earth.

And the second explanation, the sun’s elliptical path across the sky creating differences in proximity to the earth, thus creating the seasons. That would make sense if not for the fact that the sun moves east to west, yet the season disparity is in the northern and southern hemisphere. Lol. On that explanation, the northern and southern latitudes would experience the same seasons, not the opposite ones.

No…flat earther science just digs a deeper hole trying to explain real science away.

 

[GK4Herd]

And glancing up at that flat earther map at the top of the thread, using the explanation of a sun’s elliptical path over a flat surface, the closest the sun would be to the earth would be at the edges when it rises and sets. That close proximity to the earth would create summer conditions closest to the edge where it rises and sets. That really scares me because that would melt the ice wall causing all the water in the ocean to leak into space. That would suck really bad because I have a beach trip planned.

Holes….nothing but holes in this pseudoscience.

 

[Kate Branson]

Pearl Harbor is why I may not be allowed to get a Nissan Maxima, but all the American cars suck now so I may have to just be a sellout just like I was with pretty much everything else in my life.

 

[AmeriKenny]

Good questions. I don't think it has to do with vaccines but he says the govt and power brokers are hiding something. He also mentioned older building particularly govt buildings. He says how did they build those magnificent columns and marbled buildings way back when with perfect geometric cuts and angles.

He is being serious. I think they believe there is a cone under the earth. Like a waffle cone and the earth is like a frisbee on top.

The "waffle cone" and "frisbee" description of the Earth gave me a good laugh.

 

[Brushy Bill]

Earth might be hollow though.

 

[i am herdman]

Earth might be hollow though.

doesn't the Earth have a core?

 

[GK4Herd]

doesn't the Earth have a core?

Yes…molten iron. And it keeps us alive. The molten iron is rotating which creates earth’s magnetic field which protects us from the sun’s radiation. This is why we don’t have a sterile lifeless planet. Mars by contrast has a solid iron core which doesn’t create a magnetic field that protects it from the sun’s radiation. That’s why if we ever inhabit Mars for any period of time, shelters protecting the inhabitants and any crops have to be used.

Visual evidence of our magnetic field can be seen at the poles with the northern and southern lights.

 

[GK4Herd]

Earth might be hollow though.

It is…in a Jules Verne novel.

 

[Rock98Dog]

You’re assuming the sun travels around the edge of flat earth. It would travel around the equator. It’s distance from the earth would occilate throughout its path and that movement would ebb and flow with the seasons.

As far as vanishing points. You can stand on the Salt Flats, miles of total flatness, and not see objects that are miles from you. It’s not because they are over the horizon, or due to curvature, it’s because of the limitations of vision and environmental factors. Being higher does make you further away, but it extends the vanishing point, increasing your field of vision. Simply draw two points and connect them. From one point extend a line up at 90 degrees then make a low point and high point on that line. Now connect each of those points back to the far point. The angle of the line of sight is enhanced and extends your vanishing point holding your head at a consistent angle from the lower point.

the best way to settle this is to simply get in a plane starting at the North Pole and follow the 0 longitude line until you get back to the North Pole, but that hasn’t been done yet.

 

[i am herdman]

Yes…molten iron. And it keeps us alive. The molten iron is rotating which creates earth’s magnetic field which protects us from the sun’s radiation. This is why we don’t have a sterile lifeless planet. Mars by contrast has a solid iron core which doesn’t create a magnetic field that protects it from the sun’s radiation. That’s why if we ever inhabit Mars for any period of time, shelters protecting the inhabitants and any crops have to be used.

Visual evidence of our magnetic field can be seen at the poles with the northern and southern lights.

the magnetic variance changes and there are models to account for that change which comes into play for navigation. Or, am I am talking something unrelated. hahaha