Just need a simple answer - vaccine

[Rock98Dog]

They say I need to get one because I am a threat to those that are already vaccinated. They say that if you are vaccinated that you can catch and spread the virus. The benefit of the vaccine is that you should have less severe symptoms.

Assuming all that is correct - how are they going to protect the vaccinated from the other vaccinated? If both vaccinated and unvaccinated people can both catch and spread the virus, why are unvaccinated people more dangerous than vaccinated ones? Have they shown that unvaccinated people can carry a more deadly viral load? I have heard that vaccinated people can actually carry a higher viral load.

 

[Kate Branson]

It's not about protection, it's not even about a virus. It's about making you do something you don't want to do.

It's what we're stuck with as pawns in this shitty game we have to play for money.

 

[HerdandHokies]

They say I need to get one because I am a threat to those that are already vaccinated. They say that if you are vaccinated that you can catch and spread the virus. The benefit of the vaccine is that you should have less severe symptoms.

Assuming all that is correct - how are they going to protect the vaccinated from the other vaccinated? If both vaccinated and unvaccinated people can both catch and spread the virus, why are unvaccinated people more dangerous than vaccinated ones? Have they shown that unvaccinated people can carry a more deadly viral load? I have heard that vaccinated people can actually carry a higher viral load.

If you’re vaccinated you’re less likely to get Covid. So you’re less likely to pass it along from that perspective. I’m not sure if the science is final on if a vaccinated person with a breakthrough case (which, again, is less likely to happen than an unvaccinated person catching Covid) is less likely to pass it.

 

[Rock98Dog]

If you’re vaccinated you’re less likely to get Covid. So you’re less likely to pass it along from that perspective. I’m not sure if the science is final on if a vaccinated person with a breakthrough case (which, again, is less likely to happen than an unvaccinated person catching Covid) is less likely to pass it.

Except that isn’t true. The vaccine in no way prevents you from getting the virus and therefore makes you no less likely to become infected. The FDA approval specifically says there is no available drug in the United States that prevents the contraction of the virus.

It reduces the symptoms in many cases, so it may seem like it makes it less likely, but that just means those people won’t quarantine and therefore are more likely to spread it.

 

[extragreen]

there is no available drug in the United States that prevents the contraction of the virus

Studies show that COVID-19 vaccines are effective at keeping you from getting COVID-19. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html


Oxford's lead researcher, Dr. Sarah Walker, told The Telegraph that the study shows two doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech, Moderna or AstraZeneca vaccines "are still protective. You are still less likely to get infected

None of the coronavirus vaccines approved for use in the U.S. or U.K. thus far eliminate the risk of infection, but they all reduce that risk by between about 70% and 90% — and they've proven much more potent at preventing hospitalizations and deaths. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-...nfections-carry-same-virus-load-unvaccinated/

 

[HerdandHokies]

Except that isn’t true. The vaccine in no way prevents you from getting the virus and therefore makes you no less likely to become infected. The FDA approval specifically says there is no available drug in the United States that prevents the contraction of the virus.

That is wildly off base and not true at all.

It’s possible to get a breakthrough case. But it’s much, much less likely. The vaccine was found to give a 91% smaller chance of getting infected, with severe symptoms being even less likely

Coronavirus Disease 2019

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

Delta has changed things a bit, but early studies (there just hasn’t been enough time to get enough studies done and peer reviewed to say for sure) show a two-shot effectiveness in the 80s or 90s of preventing infection. Not symptoms (although it seems about as good at doing that), actual infections. The big difference seems to be that the second shot is much more important in combating Delta than Alpha.

 

[i am herdman]

I bet if we could magically give everyone a vaccine in this country it still won't go away. There will be a variant and ther is too much money and power to be made now. Pandoras box was opened and it will be here forever.

 

[i am herdman]

It is obvious people with the vaccine are carrying the virus and spreading it. Thr vaccine reduces symptoms if you get it.

Frankly, if I have a vaccine I don't care if someone else doesn't. That's called America. If I have the vaccine I I not going to shame anyone or ask for their papers.

What is it going to come to..well now they don't have the booster. They have only had their fourth shot and i have had 5. Never ending.

Never ending bull shit and nothing but division.

That's what it is going to come to. We'll now you.dont have a booster. You don't have your second booster. You got Pfizer. You got Moderna. On and on.

Then it will be show your papers ans your passport. Then it will be mandatory flu shots and mandatory abortions for women under 25 because of over population. Mandatory birth control. Mandatory this and that.

Maybe people should just take the vaccine if they want it and shut the **** up and go on with their life. If you have a vaccine you have done all you can do. That's what you can control.

 

[riflearm2]

Frankly, if I have a vaccine I don't care if someone else doesn't. That's called America. If I have the vaccine I I not going to shame anyone or ask for their papers.

You’ll quickly change your tune when you or w loved one can’t get a hospital bed due to the selfish pieces of shit who haven’t been vaccinated and are crushing the hospitals.

Banker, have you not been vaccinated?

 

[HerdandHokies]

Glad the previous generations were made of tougher stuff than the boomers or we’d still all have polio.

 

[i am herdman]

You’ll quickly change your tune when you or w loved one can’t get a hospital bed due to the selfish pieces of shit who haven’t been vaccinated and are crushing the hospitals.

Banker, have you not been vaccinated?

When they can't get a bed? OK. So what would i be mad about? Kick the people out? Kick out the stroke victims. Kick out the hear attack victims. Kick out the car accidents. Or the people with cancer or diabetes. The people who go to the emergency room for drug over doses? A cold? Welfare recipients? Plastic surgery? Boob job surgery? Appendix attacks?

Cmon good gravy. I had a car accident ansd was transported to the hospital in 2020 when they said the hospitals were full. The nurse rolled her eyes when we asked about covid and was it safe for my wife to be in the emergency room. She said don't believe everything that's on the news. This was way before any vaccines ans the news was in mayhem about what you just mentioned. There were not even readily available tests then.

 

[i am herdman]

Glad the previous generations were made of tougher stuff than the boomers or we’d still all have polio.

I am not a baby boomer.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

When they can't get a bed? OK. So what would i be mad about? Kick the people out? Kick out the stroke victims. Kick out the hear attack victims. Kick out the car accidents. Or the people with cancer or diabetes. The people who go to the emergency room for drug over doses? A cold? Welfare recipients? Plastic surgery? Boob job surgery? Appendix attacks?

Cmon good gravy. I had a car accident ansd was transported to the hospital in 2020 when they said the hospitals were full. The nurse rolled her eyes when we asked about covid and was it safe for my wife to be in the emergency room. She said don't believe everything that's on the news. This was way before any vaccines ans the news was in mayhem about what you just mentioned. There were not even readily available tests then.

When your location is in a wave, staffing is a major issue at the hospital (so many nurses burnt out, quit, or on quarantine or have covid). People wait literally days in the ER for a hospital bed to open up.

We don’t have staff to care for all we should. Elective surgeries are out on hold. Thankfully we haven’t had to delay cancer surgeries yet.

I’m afraid of government over reach, but it’s hard to under estimate the impact covid waves have on health care. It breaks the whole system.

Now, if you’re in an area with few cases, then it doesn’t look like that. But in a wave, it’s a train wreck.

 

[i am herdman]

When your location is in a wave, staffing is a major issue at the hospital (so many nurses burnt out, quit, or on quarantine or have covid). People wait literally days in the ER for a hospital bed to open up.

We don’t have staff to care for all we should. Elective surgeries are out on hold. Thankfully we haven’t had to delay cancer surgeries yet.

I’m afraid of government over reach, but it’s hard to under estimate the impact covid waves have on health care. It breaks the whole system.

Now, if you’re in an area with few cases, then it doesn’t look like that. But in a wave, it’s a train wreck.

I don't doubt that. But, why shame and the govt over reach? I understand the waves. But, the doesn't mean I want the govt involved with and threatening employers and telling people to provide medical records and such.

Just wait, Doc. One of these days this lays the ground work where we say you know the earth is over populated and global warming. All women under age 25 have to take birth control and or have an abortion(that's how they will justify its morality and standing). Show your records. This stuff is a slippery slope. Politicians and govt don't like giving up authority or power. And, follow the money. Wait until nurses and med staff quit over the shot and such. More shortages.

Why should the govt make my employer the police for covid shots? Why should I show my employer my records? Why would my employer want to and be responsible to?

Remember when they built all these temporary hospital beds? Added on to hospitals?

Oh and remember Joe Biden had a plan. Yehh right.

If we don't draw a line in the sand today then, where will it lead? They are playing upon fear and panic.

 

[HerdandHokies]

Herdman, are you OK with all the other vaccines you have to get, to attend school or college?

 

[i am herdman]

Herdman, are you OK with all the other vaccines you have to get, to attend school or college?

I am ok with the Covid vaccine. I am ok with other vaccines. I am not ok with shaming others or threatening legal action against others over the Covid vaccine nor threatening law abiding citizens nor employers. I have never showed a vaccine card to go to the grocery store or a concert or anywhere else really. My employer has never been threatened by the dictatorial nature of the executive branch of the federal govt. I have a problem with that,

The CDC and govt waffle too much. and lie too much. Who know what to believe anymore. As I stated it will turn it well you got the vaccine but you don't have a booster, or the second booster, etc. They don't make Congress take it so why should they make a business with 150 employees in Bismarck ND take it or threaten to shut them down or fine them. If Biden or any POTUS can do this what is next?

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

People wait literally days in the ER for a hospital bed to open up.

One of the individuals I case manager for waited five days in the ER for a bed. This was last week.

Of note here in Indiana: Monroe County, that's Bloomington, has by far the best metrics. An educated blue county and IU requires vaccination to attend. Maybe these vaccines work

 

[i am herdman]

One of the individuals I case manager for waited five days in the ER for a bed. This was last week.

Of note here in Indiana: Monroe County, that's Bloomington, has by far the best metrics. An educated blue county and IU requires vaccination to attend. Maybe these vaccines work

Except blacks are only 40 percent vaccinated. Rural hospitals fill up quicker well because in part they are smaller.

 

[HerdandHokies]

I am ok with the Covid vaccine. I am ok with other vaccines. I am not ok with shaming others or threatening legal action against others over the Covid vaccine nor threatening law abiding citizens nor employers. I have never showed a vaccine card to go to the grocery store or a concert or anywhere else really. My employer has never been threatened by the dictatorial nature of the executive branch of the federal govt. I have a problem with that,

The CDC and govt waffle too much. and lie too much. Who know what to believe anymore. As I stated it will turn it well you got the vaccine but you don't have a booster, or the second booster, etc. They don't make Congress take it so why should they make a business with 150 employees in Bismarck ND take it or threaten to shut them down or fine them. If Biden or any POTUS can do this what is next?

Are you OK with kids not being allowed to go to school without the vaccine regimen that’s been in place for a long time? How about for Covid vaccines once they’re approved for kids?

 

[-CarlHungus-]

I will say the cdc/govt needs to recognize natural immunity.

They’re building distrust by demanding people that have had covid still take a vax.

I will be very pissed if they mandate kid vax and don’t have an antibody titer exemption.

 

[i am herdman]

Are you OK with kids not being allowed to go to school without the vaccine regimen that’s been in place for a long time? How about for Covid vaccines once they’re approved for kids?

There are the options for schools and that is a state ruling not a presidential executive order. It also does not effect a person's livelihood. They have picked on certain business ans not all. In most states a child will not be turned away over vaccines. Private schools are also available. It is not compatible and this vaccine is new.

Two different situations. School mandates are not presidential executive orders.

 

[MichiganHerd]

Except blacks are only 40 percent vaccinated. Rural hospitals fill up quicker well because in part they are smaller.

Colored people aren't allowed in rural Indiana county. Most have to live in Speedway, Fort Wayne, or Gary.

 

[HerdandHokies]

There are the options for schools and that is a state ruling not a presidential executive order. It also does not effect a person's livelihood. They have picked on certain business ans not all. In most states a child will not be turned away over vaccines. Private schools are also available. It is not compatible and this vaccine is new.

Two different situations. School mandates are not presidential executive orders.

School vaccination laws generally apply to all kids attending a school or daycare, public or private.

 

[i am herdman]

School vaccination laws generally apply to all kids attending a school or daycare, public or private.

And, as I stated they are not a presidential executive order.

 

[marshallisqbu]

I called Kentucky last week to transfer a patient because we had no beds. Neither did a hospital 7 hours driving distance or closer.

It is better this week bed wise only because lots of our icu patients became comfort care and were terminally extubated.

 

[HerdandHokies]

And, as I stated they are not a presidential executive order.

So Congress passing a law would make you fine with it?

 

[i am herdman]

So Congress passing a law would make you fine with it?

I would still disagree with it and how it is worded now, but it would at least be a process.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

I would still disagree with it and how it is worded now, but it would at least be a process.

I tend to agree with this too.

Don’t love the trend of executive orders. I’m not a constitutional scholar though. So I’m not firm on this here. I don’t know enough about it.

EDIT: what is the history of these old vax mandates ? Local school board? State law? I honestly don’t know.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

I called Kentucky last week to transfer a patient because we had no beds. Neither did a hospital 7 hours driving distance or closer.

It is better this week bed wise only because lots of our icu patients became comfort care and were terminally extubated.

Our actual census is fairly low.

However, we have big staff shortages. No inpatient requiring elective surgeries. Really limited OR time slots, etc. ER is a train wreck. My ER and Pulm buddies are burnt out. You guys are awesome.

The Pulm crew comes to tumor board looking defeated. Pagers going off. They’re begging to do bronch/EBUS on the cancer patients just for a change of pace.

 

[herdfan06]

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

Except blacks are only 40 percent vaccinated.

I think it would be safe to say most blacks in Bloomington attend or are employed by IU. There are twice as many Asians as blacks in Bloomington, and I mean by official Census data, not just me noticing a lot of Asians.

The blackest counties in Indiana are faring better than many of the really white deplorable counties, many of which have vaccination rates around 20%. It is those counties that are the shit show by metrics.

Rural hospitals

This is not a rural hospital...where do you think I live lol. And where do you think the rural hospitals send patients once their system is broken?

 

[i am herdman]

I think it would be safe to say most blacks in Bloomington attend or are employed by IU. There are twice as many Asians as blacks in Bloomington, and I mean by official Census data, not just me noticing a lot of Asians.

The blackest counties in Indiana are faring better than many of the really white deplorable counties, many of which have vaccination rates around 20%. It is those counties that are the shit show by metrics.

This is not a rural hospital...where do you think I live lol. And where do you think the rural hospitals send patients once their system is broken?

Blacks overall nationwide, last I saw, are vaccinated at a 40% rate, which I believe is lower than Trump voters.

I was referring to rural hospitals being full.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

I tend to agree with this too.

Don’t love the trend of executive orders. I’m not a constitutional scholar though. So I’m not firm on this here. I don’t know enough about it.

Basically EO's, to pass court review, need to be in areas concerning Executive powers granted by the Article II or by Congressional delegation to the Executive branch via legislation (thus why Biden did this through the law establishing OSHA).

Congress can override an EO. The process is much like legislation; majority vote to override, POTUS can veto, 2/3 majority to override veto. Or Congress can refuse to fund the execution of an order.

From a political science view, many of the more controversial EO's are issued because Congress can't get its shit together to act on something. As is the case with this vaccination order. Same with DACA under Obama, Congress can't get its shit together on immigration reform. It's also a widely held view in political science that the executive branch will always naturally try to grow stronger, because 1. that's the nature of the Executive (thus the need for checks and balances), and 2. the nation, and the government, always grows more complex.

I am not knowledgeable enough about the laws surrounding OSHA to have an opinion on if this EO should or should not pass judicial review...I do have an opinion of what SCOTUS might rule should it end up there, but that opinion is based on the politics of the high court, and that answer should be obvious.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

Blacks overall nationwide, last I saw, are vaccinated at a 40% rate, which I believe is lower than Trump voters.

I was referring to rural hospitals being full.

I'd take 40% in the hick counties here. I am not kidding about it being in the 20%s, I just double checked the state health department numbers.

And I was talking about, and you quoted me talking about, the lady I case manage for. That hospital is not rural. You also quoted me talking about Monroe County, which is not rural, its population is 150k.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

Basically EO's, to pass court review, need to be in areas concerning Executive powers granted by the Article II or by Congressional delegation to the Executive branch via legislation (thus why Biden did this through the law establishing OSHA).

Congress can override an EO. The process is much like legislation; majority vote to override, POTUS can veto, 2/3 majority to override veto. Or Congress can refuse to fund the execution of an order.

From a political science view, many of the more controversial EO's are issued because Congress can't get its shit together to act on something. As is the case with this vaccination order. Same with DACA under Obama, Congress can't get its shit together on immigration reform. It's also a widely held view in political science that the executive branch will always naturally try to grow stronger, because 1. that's the nature of the Executive (thus the need for checks and balances), and 2. the nation, and the government, always grows more complex.

I am not knowledgeable enough about the laws surrounding OSHA to have an opinion on if this EO should or should not pass judicial review...I do have an opinion of what SCOTUS might rule should it end up there, but that opinion is based on the politics of the high court, and that answer should be obvious.

…and with increasing complexity comes fragility. Why so many feel localism is best/most anti fragile. More skin in the game too.

Aside - how did the old vax mandates come to be? Legislation?

 

[Dallasherdguy]

This can not be a simple answer. Way too many opinions and many different opposing "simple" answers. How to protect people from Vaccinated or unvaccinated. Is the same either way.

To have close to a 100% chance of total protection is to destroy the economy of the country. Lock everything down period is the only way for that to happen, and something we can't do if we want to still have a country.

COVID 19 is here to stay, we just got to live with it. Just like the flu we have been living with for decades. Someone earlier mentioned Polio, completely different situation. Not as easily transmitted and not something that mutates. That was like comparing apples to oranges.

Are people going to get sick and some die every year from COVID 19 well most likely. Sounds harsh but I would tell you to look at stats for the Flu over 9 years - 2010 to 2019(last year CDC info not published yet). the number is approximately 350,000 that is after many decades of study and knowledge. Don't know the numbers back when the Flu was new, but there were several years with COVID19 type deaths, now those are included in the flu vaccine and we have the 350k in 9 years. When was the last time someone screamed about Flu deaths. In a few years COVID deaths will IMO be in the neighborhood of the flu and not have the political hot potato it is now. And most like be included in the regular Flu vaccine most get.

I personally do what I think is prudent to protect myself. And that should be the right of every citizen regardless of what they choose to do.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

Why so many feel localism is best/most anti fragile. More skin in the game too.

The problem with that is then you have even more legislative bodies that need to get their shit together when faced with a truly national issue. I do not think the Founders could envision a world in which the nation was so inter-connected and travel so fast. For a while I have being toying with the idea that the USA is just too damn big now to be truly democratic as a whole. I am in no way arguing for authoritarianism, but there's a reason the CCP can get shit done in such a huge nation. Mexico's federal system can't get shit done, and the EU, while a different animal, has to force member nations to get shit done.

Aside - how did the old vax mandates come to be? Legislation?

I would need to do more reading on that. I do know the details of Jacobson v Massachusetts involved a state law with local enforcement.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

@-CarlHungus- , here is a good article on Jacobson v MA and its parallels with today's situation. I think it is worth a read. And it has me thinking should this come before SCOTUS it will only be framed as a question of the legality of the Executive Order and not have a thing to do with vaccine mandates....there is just too much wrapped up in that case's precedent.

https://www.politico.com/news/magaz...mandate-strong-supreme-court-precedent-510280

 

[-CarlHungus-]

The problem with that is then you have even more legislative bodies that need to get their shit together when faced with a truly national issue. I do not think the Founders could envision a world in which the nation was so inter-connected and travel so fast. For a while I have being toying with the idea that the USA is just too damn big now to be truly democratic as a whole. I am in no way arguing for authoritarianism, but there's a reason the CCP can get shit done in such a huge nation. Mexico's federal system can't get shit done, and the EU, while a different animal, has to force member nations to get shit done.

I would need to do more reading on that. I do know the details of Jacobson v Massachusetts involved a state law with local enforcement.

Re:localism - I meant more in terms of other issues (school policy/housing policy/tax, etc). Obviously with inter state travel in a pandemic you need national input.

I wasn’t clear on that- just some general thinking . My bad.

 

[-CarlHungus-]

The other issue is what is the end point?

Yale has a 99% vax rate. But it’s my understanding they still have mask mandate.

We need an exit strategy/metric for an off ramp to build trust.