ADVERTISEMENT

Liberal Democrats are offended by the term anchor baby.

HELP ME OUT HERE OLEN. SOMETHING I WONDER ABOUT.

I AGREE THAT ILLEGALS OFFSPRING SHOULD NOT BE AUTOMATICALLY GIVEN
CITIZENSHIP, BUT HOW CAN YOU BE WITHIN A JURISDICTION, YET NOT BE SUBJECT TO THE LAWS OF THAT JURISDICTION? THAT JUST SOUNDS LIKE DOUBLE TALK TO ME.

I AM NOT TRYING TO BE ARGUMENTATIVE, I KNOW THERE MUST BE SOME LOGIC TO
THAT VIEWPOINT, I AM JUST CURIOUS AS TO WHAT IT IS.
 
Last edited:
It never ceases to amaze me that even when given a specific answer, (an easily understood answer) offered by someone who completely understands the topic through personal experience and education (in this case the law), that it can be completely ignored and intentionally twisted into complete nonsense by the least educated poster on here. Greed is "special".
 
Instead of arguing facts and looking like a douche, why don't you explain to us why your bleeding heart cares so much about this topic? You don't live in an area where this is even an issue. As banker brought up, you haven't been paying tax dollars all your life to support these deadbeats, nor will you be paying much longer since you're retirement age.

Facts are not irrelevant, much to the discomfort of some on here. The reason I'm adamant about this is that some posters have approved of disallowing birth certificates to a certain set of United States citizens. That happens to be unconstitutional. And here's another fact...I have been paying taxes all my working years, of which some of it has gone toward illegals all of those years.
 
Facts are not irrelevant, much to the discomfort of some on here. The reason I'm adamant about this is that some posters have approved of disallowing birth certificates to a certain set of United States citizens. That happens to be unconstitutional. And here's another fact...I have been paying taxes all my working years, of which some of it has gone toward illegals all of those years.
FACT: Birth Certificates are not mentioned ANYWHERE in the constitution
 
The resident attorney is allowed to voice his opinion. It is in the minority. The law has been followed as it is now for over 100 years. And as of right now, it is the LAW, not a bureaucratic decision, that the children of illegal immigrants born in the United States are citizens of the United States and have all citizenship rights.

It hasn't been followed for over 100 years - the policies (of not deporting children born here of illegal immigrants) have been used sporadically and inconsistently over the last thirty to forty years. That part of the law has not been challenged and decided by SCOTUS (or even an inferior federal court), and as policies tend to go, they are implemented, sometimes followed, and until challenged, are assumed to be constitutional.
 
HELP ME OUT HERE OLEN. SOMETHING I WONDER ABOUT.

I AGREE THAT ILLEGALS OFFSPRING SHOULD NOT BE AUTOMATICALLY GIVEN
CITIZENSHIP, BUT HOW CAN YOU BE WITHIN A JURISDICTION, YET NOT BE SUBJECT TO THE LAWS OF THAT JURISDICTION? THAT JUST SOUNDS LIKE DOUBLE TALK TO ME.

I AM NOT TRYING TO BE ARGUMENTATIVE, I KNOW THERE MUST BE SOME LOGIC TO
THAT VIEWPOINT, I AM JUST CURIOUS AS TO WHAT IT IS.

"Double talk" is an interesting choice of description. One of the main canons of statutory construction is that all words have meaning and should be interpreted to not be superfluous (or excess). Thus, that canon instructs that the phrase in question has two elements -- personal born/naturalized (in/by US) and subject to the jurisdiction of US. If, as suggested by proponents of the "born here = auto citizenship" interpretation, then the phrase "subject to the US" is surplus language without meaning or impact, since the leap made is that "if one is born here, s/he IS subject to the jurisdiction of the US." As I suggested, this violates several canons of construction, and makes the language null, void, and without effect.

The short-ish response is that "subject to the jurisdiction of the US" has the idea of comity and honoring the sovereignty of other nations, so that if a non-citizen is here, the non-citizen (and any family/offspring) remain subject to the jurisdiction of the nation of their residence/domicile/citizenship. A visiting immigrant, or an ambassador of another nation, are citizens of other nations, and are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US (absent specific extradition protocols). An illegal immigrant is similarly not-a-citizen and not subject to the jurisdiction of the US.

With children, most nations consider children subject to the parents, and subject to the jurisdiction of the parents. Thus, a child born to a visiting immigrant, an illegal immigrant, or an ambassador (among several examples), is subject to the jurisdiction of the parent(s)'s nation. The US policy on not deporting children ( of illegal immigrant parents) born here is a relatively recent policy, and has been inconsistent in application (IIRC, as recent as 2010, ICE both deported and allowed families (to remain) comprising illegal imm. parents and US-born child).

To date, that element (2) has not be interpreted by SCOTUS or any federal court. The previously-mentioned case (Ark - 1898) did not turn on "subject to the jurisdiction of the US" because the parents were legal immigrants and subject to the jurisdiction of the US, thus the child born to legal immigrants was recognized as having citizenship. The case begs the question - what if the parents were illegal immigrants - but that question has yet been asked or answered, and is subject to policy decisions that may or may not square with constitutional aims.

*******

There is a longer response developing -- but I'm not sure I'll have time to get to it this evening or until tomorrow (or even if it is worth posting since it digs into historical and legal minutiae).
 
It hasn't been followed for over 100 years - the policies (of not deporting children born here of illegal immigrants) have been used sporadically and inconsistently over the last thirty to forty years. That part of the law has not been challenged and decided by SCOTUS (or even an inferior federal court), and as policies tend to go, they are implemented, sometimes followed, and until challenged, are assumed to be constitutional.

OK, a link would be nice.
 
HOW CAN YOU BE WITHIN A JURISDICTION, YET NOT BE SUBJECT TO THE LAWS OF THAT JURISDICTION? THAT JUST SOUNDS LIKE DOUBLE TALK TO ME.

Again, diplomats. While in DC, I used to mess with the daughter of the right-hand man to an ambassador from an African nation. When we drove places, she would always drive since I had to abide by the laws and she could do whatever the hell she wanted with little repercussion.

She could drive like an asshole and police wouldn't touch her because of embassy plates. If she were to be more than an asshole, they would pull her over, treat her with kid gloves on, and the embassy may be contacted depending on the type of police who pulled her over. I asked her what would happen if she blatantly held up drugs to the police when they stopped her (since they would never search or frisk her). She said they would briefly detain her until the embassy was contacted, and wait for embassy police to come get her. For anything extremely serious, the embassy would just send her back to her country, but she wouldn't face punishment in the U.S. (and based on daddy's position, not in her homeland).
 
Facts are not irrelevant, much to the discomfort of some on here. The reason I'm adamant about this is that some posters have approved of disallowing birth certificates to a certain set of United States citizens. That happens to be unconstitutional. And here's another fact...I have been paying taxes all my working years, of which some of it has gone toward illegals all of those years.

Birth certificates are also a functionality of the states, not the federal government.
 
Birth certificates are also a functionality of the states, not the federal government.

States must abide by the constitution also. In the same 14th amendment, after it states that "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside," it then continues with " No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
 
States must abide by the constitution also. In the same 14th amendment, after it states that "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside," it then continues with " No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


The problem is that illegal immigration is out of control. Two, it has not been argued in courts nor has the legal precedent been. Several of us have pointed that out to you, including the opinion of an attorney. You chose to ignore that. What will have to be determined in years to come is the citizenship of a child who's parents entered a sovereign nation illegally. They are not residents of a state nor the country.

What has been established is that the federal bureaucracy has admitted those children into the country, granted them citizenship, and allowed their illegal parent(s) to remain in the country. That is not a legal precedence.

What probably started out as a good intention has gone haywire and now it is costing the country millions of dollars. Make that billions of dollars. It has also turned into a pipeline of potential voters for a certain political party.

This thing is eventually going to court. I would imagine a collection of states will sue the federal government over this.
 
Until it is argued in court, the law remains that all people born in the U S, regardless of their parents status, are citizens of the United States. You evidently don't like it, but that's just the way it is. And no, it is not a matter of bureaucracy, it is a matter of constitutional law.
 
It truly amazes me that a well constructed, well informed post such as Olen's can be brushed off by some backwoods, OW high skool edumacated, hick with nothing more than a glancing acknowledgement. My guess is because he can't grasp the concepts being discussed.

Olen, I appreciated the insight.

Dherd, maybe a different way to think of it. If a serviceman and his family are stationed in Germany and give birth to a child, the child is still a US citizen. If you are on vacation with your pregnant wife in France and she gives birth while there, your child is still a US citizen. While you are subject to the laws of the country you are visiting, you are not subject to their jurisdiction. Olen could shed more light on the detail of the difference, but it's fairly common when dealing with contracts across either state or international boundaries. You always have to be careful to not only define governing law for the contract, but also jurisdiction should a legal action be required.

In the same vein, children born here to visitors are not automatically US citizens. If they were automatically US citizens, under US jurisdiction, our government could prevent a French couple who are here on vacation from taking their child born in the US back to France with them. The government could decide that it is in the best interest of the child, a US citizen by birth, to remain in the US. I know that seems far fetched, but under what someone like extra believes, it would be possible.

If you take that a step further, if a child born to tourist here on a travel Visa is not automatically a US citizen under US jurisdiction, why would a child born to illegal immigrants, essential tourists without a travel Visa, automatically be a US citizen and under the jurisdiction of the US?
 
If I bowed to certificates on the wall of herdnation posters, then I'd believe that subjects of sentences can be in prepositional phrases, that a child's citizenship is not recognized until they reach the age of 21, and that natural born citizens are not really citizens.
 
OK, a link would be nice.

I'm guessing (you were not specific) at what you are requesting a link for - so here goes.

(i) In addition to the example upthread (circa 2010 that I read last week), here is an example of how a policy was applied in 2007 and how the policy has changed in application to the current era.

In 1997, an illegal already deported once, illegally re-entered the US, had a child, and was not caught, arrested, and deported until 2006/07. The child (presumed to be a US citizen) was also deported. (LINK) This effort and result generated litigation on behalf of the deported, but the court upheld the deportations (despite the presumed citizenship of the child). Coleman v. United States, 454 F. Supp. 2d 757, 760 (N.D. Ill. 2006).

Months later, in late 2006 and early 2007, several workplace raids resulted in arrests and the start of deportation efforts of illegals, some with US-born children (presumed citizens). ICE had softened its policies (some): "We grant humanitarian relief in the case that someone is a single parent or sole caregiver of a child," she says. "We go to extraordinary means to find out." (LINK) The particulars of the humanitarian relief were not explained, but it appears to be softer than the initial deportation of the illegal mom followed by the deportation of (presumed) citizen child, esp. in light of the public outcry of the 2006/07 arrest and deportation in the paragraph above.

After another high-profile incident in Oct. 2007, ICE issued new guidelines on how ICE agents should treat single parents, pregnant or nursing women, and other immigrants with special child or family care responsibilities who are arrested in raids. (LINK)

Recent policy has been to place many US-born children into foster care when one/both illegal parents are deported. (LINK - page 5)

Given how government regulatory agencies tend to operate (having litigated matters before several agencies), the consistent application of such policies is at the mercy of subjective judgment, as clearly demonstrated in this series of examples.

(ii) With regard to the 14th Amdt and the 100 years thing -- the 14th Amdt has been around for 160+ years, but the citizenship clause is a lightly litigated aspect of that amendment. The privileges and immunities clause, as well as equal protection and due process (as applied through the states) gets much more litigation attention. Although a very recent development may bring this clause into the federal court spotlight.

One part of the reason why the citizenship clause has been lightly litigated is that illegal immigration did not because a significant issue until the 60s, esp. in the aftermath of the 1965 Immigration and Nationality Act, which increased the caps and loosened some of the standards for legal immigration, relaxing enforcement (and in turn, encouraged more illegal entry). Until the mid 60s, immigration was a highly regulated and controlled process, esp. from the 20s to the late 50s, when the derogatory label "WOP" (without papers) came into vogue and was a source of shame for many illegals. So, the immigration problem emerged as a problem in the late 60s and early 70s and has progressively increased to now.

Evidence of that is simply searching "birthright citizenship" - bunch of links. After looking at a couple, imo, Wikipedia provides a decent starting point regarding the (light) history of birthright citizenship in the courts. This link is more comprehensive on the few legal battles that have ensued.

One of the noted historians and scholars on "birthright citizenship", and critic of current policy interpretation and policies springing from those interpretations, John Eastman, has challenged everyone that opposes his view to cite a case, an enacted law, an executive order, or a presidential memorandum that supports the broad interpretation of birthright citizenship to extend to children of non-citizen illegals. To date no one has or can because none exist. It was an assumption that has become policy. It's legal basis is shaky at best. (LINK)
 
States must abide by the constitution also. In the same 14th amendment, after it states that "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside," it then continues with " No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

One note on this (I'm not wading in on the birth certificate debate at this point - don't have enough info as of yet) - and I'm not suggesting you misunderstand as this is a general statement: in the "it [14th Amdt] then continues with" part you cited above, there are three clauses there. The first clause states that no state can make or enforce a law that abridges the privileges or immunities of citizens of the US. The second clause states that no state can deprive any person of life/liberty/property without due process of law. The third clause states that no state can deny any person within its jurisdiction of equal protection.

As interpreted, the first clause is exclusive to citizens, the second clause provides due process for any person and the third clause provides equal protection of the law for any person that is within the territorial jurisdiction (not the same as "subject to the jurisdiction" in the citizenship clause). Although sometimes misunderstood, and leading to conflation of various rights, a person that is entitled to due process or equal protection (second and third clauses) is not conferred citizenship (the entity identified in the first clause), despite these three clauses hanging together, and in proximity to the citizenship clause.
 
Last edited:
As a continuation to the post immediately above, here is a recent case that has related issues: read this article first (LINK).

Notice we have an illegal arrested for allegedly possessing a gun (strike two on staying within the law). As part of his defense, he raised a challenge based on the 2nd Amdt - an individual's right to bear arms. District court disagreed and asserted the opinion that "person" under the 2nd Amdt doesn't include illegals; a three-judge panel of the 7th Circuit disagreed with that thought, and stated that the 2nd Amdt "person" (like the two clauses above regarding due process and equal protection) includes any person - including illegals. But the 7th Circ. ultimately ruled against the defendant on grounds that the right to bear arms is not limitless and can be regulated by the law in question.

There is a split among the federal circuits on the "person" issue -- the 7th Circ. stands in the "person includes illegals" while other circuits stand in the "person does not include illegals". The 7th Circ. and others like it are (or think they are) following precedent, like Plyler v. Doe (1983), which determined that equal protection applies to illegals (identified as persons under the 14th Amdt) and thus must be provided public education. The other circuits appear to be ignoring Plyler or distinguishing Plyler are one or more grounds.

This is a good illustration that constitutional interpretation is on a continuum and very few things are so settled and undisputed that it can categorically be declared legal/illegal, consitutional/unconstitutional. Esp. with unresolved questions (such as "subject to the jurisdiction of the US") - the best that can be said is it is an unresolved question, and the government is operating under the assumption/presumption that US-born illegals are citizens, since there is no clear statement that such is true (whether it is the amendment, the various laws adopted associated with the amendment, or the regulations or policies utilized by the agencies regulating immigration).
 
Despite the clear understanding from the legislative history (of the preceding federal law) and the amendment debates regarding citizenship requirements prescribed in the 14th Amdt, and despite the subsequent immigration law (and policies implemented that are the center of current debate), the one unavoidable problem is the inescapable illogic of rewarding the act of illegally trespassing in the US with automatic citizenship for any child born to an illegal (or illegals). I'm straining to think of any example where federal or state law rewards others from the fruit of illegal conduct. We don't allow criminals or their families to retain ill-gotten money or property of value. And by so rewarding illegal trespassing with birthright citizenship (when applicable), we devalue the legalized process of immigrating and obtaining citizenship. Among other things.
 
I would like to see a link to a case where a natural born child to illegal immigrants has been deported after 1868. By deported, I don't mean a case where a natural born child has been ALLOWED to leave with their deported parents.
 
I would like to see a link to a case where a natural born child to illegal immigrants has been deported after 1868. By deported, I don't mean a case where a natural born child has been ALLOWED to leave with their deported parents.

I originally misread what you posted.

IIRC, one of the links in that longer post above has some of this information. It doesn't happen often, and now it probably wouldn't happen, but prior to the policy change that would place US-born children in foster care, if that child had no legal family members in the US, the child would be sent home with the illegal parent(s). The immigration regulators changed that policy to allow for foster care placement.
FWIW.
 
Last edited:
There is a somewhat related case with the actress in California. She had two children with her husband who was here on a visa. Both children were born in the U.S. The mother holds only U.S. citizenship. The parents divorced. When the husband's visa expired, he moved to Monaco. A California court gave him custody, which led to the U.S. deporting the children (who were U.S. citizens) and forcing them to turn in their passports.
 
There is a somewhat related case with the actress in California. She had two children with her husband who was here on a visa. Both children were born in the U.S. The mother holds only U.S. citizenship. The parents divorced. When the husband's visa expired, he moved to Monaco. A California court gave him custody, which led to the U.S. deporting the children (who were U.S. citizens) and forcing them to turn in their passports.

Is that Kelly Rutherford (she is fetching) and her case? The Monaco thing rings a bell.
 
Plaintiff puts forth three theories of constitutional harm. (R. 1-1, Pl.'s Compl. at 2-3.) Each of his theories, however, rests on the premise that the pending removal order, once executed, will necessarily result in Saul's deportation. It will not. The removal order does not apply to Saul at all and, as a result, Saul retains the right as a citizen to remain in the United States. Thus, the removal order is something less than " de facto deportation" and is in no way compelled deportation. That Saul retains the option to stay, even if that choice is no doubt unsavory, means that the pending removal order is not unconstitutional
 
Plaintiff puts forth three theories of constitutional harm. (R. 1-1, Pl.'s Compl. at 2-3.) Each of his theories, however, rests on the premise that the pending removal order, once executed, will necessarily result in Saul's deportation. It will not. The removal order does not apply to Saul at all and, as a result, Saul retains the right as a citizen to remain in the United States. Thus, the removal order is something less than " de facto deportation" and is in no way compelled deportation. That Saul retains the option to stay, even if that choice is no doubt unsavory, means that the pending removal order is not unconstitutional

As I noted above - I misread your post originally.
 
Olen, I read your above post before it was edited. In the meantime I read the case you had mentioned. You have no idea how painful that was to read all that legalese. You suck.:)
 
Olen, I read your above post before it was edited. In the meantime I read the case you had mentioned. You have no idea how painful that was to read all that legalese. You suck.:)

Appreciating your pain, I do sincerely apologize. While it doesn't rise to the level of an 8th Amdt claim, it is certainly borderline cruel. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: extragreen
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT