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Lyin Biden

It's a different game now. It costs more to go to college and people are making less wages. You're more or less forced to go to college, go head over hill in debt and spend a lifetime paying it off, or not go to college and make a wage that's not enough to do much of anything. It's irresponsible for us as a society to allow this game with these rules.
Agree with all of this. We just disagree on the correct way to address it. Problem is, any solution - right, left, or center - requires multiple changes across numerous disciplines, starting with the education system and ending with changes in hiring practices.
 
forgiving those loans just perpetuates the issue. colleges have zero skin in the game for these loans. They're guaranteed to get paid. It's a HUGE (if not THE) driver of college cost inflation.

The loans should be dischargeable in a bankruptcy and colleges should have a mechanism that penalizes them or makes them dip into their hedge fund (i mean endowments) to help cover the bankruptcy.
For public schools don't forget decreasing support from state legislatures, passing on more of the cost to students. I think there really are two issues here, expensive private colleges are a whole other thing versus the public colleges.

I don't think it is a coincidence that since 2008 college tuition is up 60%, average loan amounts have doubled, and wages stagnated down at the low end...there's not really any more working a part time job to pay for college.

I absolutely agree on being able to discharge in bankruptcy.

My view on the whole thing? Means tested forgiveness would stimulate housing, vehicle purchases, and reproduction. If we can stimulate the hell out of big corporations, why not do it.
 
Agree with all of this. We just disagree on the correct way to address it. Problem is, any solution - right, left, or center - requires multiple changes across numerous disciplines, starting with the education system and ending with changes in hiring practices.
We might be able to find some common ground on the way to address it. In the meantime, there's way too many former students drowning in debt. Give them relief.
 
For public schools don't forget decreasing support from state legislatures, passing on more of the cost to students. I think there really are two issues here, expensive private colleges are a whole other thing versus the public colleges.

I don't think it is a coincidence that since 2008 college tuition is up 60%, average loan amounts have doubled, and wages stagnated down at the low end...there's not really any more working a part time job to pay for college.

I absolutely agree on being able to discharge in bankruptcy.

My view on the whole thing? Means tested forgiveness would stimulate housing, vehicle purchases, and reproduction. If we can stimulate the hell out of big corporations, why not do it.

The colleges are extremely bloated with massive administrative staff (that don't actually enhance learning IMO), huge facilities (with carry over line item costs like utilities/maintenance). Colleges have become palaces - dorms, student centers, restaurants in campus, etc. I don't fully buy the legislative expenditure pieces. They have a spending problem, not an income problem. Michigan's DEI admin budget is astronomical (millions upon millions each year...15 million last I saw online PER YEAR....they have a full time position at the Botanical Gardens and Arboretum for "Diversity/Inclusion specialist").

Professors are making less than ever. Post docs and grad students (that is all a pyramid scheme too....churning out massive PhD's with no where to get a job) give the school even more cheap labor. You no longer need a massive brick and mortar paper library (it's all on the internet). It's the facilities and worthless administrators. Look at ratios of students to admins and how that's changed in the past few decades.

Get a basic dorm, student center, and cut 75% of administration and you won't notice a damn thing different on quality of education.

None of the above problems get fixed (and likely they get worse) with any version of forgiveness that does not also put skin in the game of colleges.
 
Electrician $25 per hour
Plumber. $22 per hour
Concrete $20 per hour $41,000 per year IF you get to work 40 hours and all 52 weeks
HVAC tech. $23 per hour
Boilermaker $27 per hour

You get the point
Here's the point....59% of all construction trade workers make less than $45 grand per year. That doesn't approach what I would call "very good".
 
We might be able to find some common ground on the way to address it. In the meantime, there's way too many former students drowning in debt. Give them relief.
All high school seniors should be required to take a course regarding student loans. Often times, the students are offered more than they need which they take and blow on other things, then get stuck paying it back over decades. It’s considered “free money” when it is anything but. Likewise, high school seniors should also receive a class on trades. When I was in junior high, we’d have like one 9 weeks in gym class and one 9 weeks in health. Something like that to prepare them for the real world.
 
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Here's the point....59% of all construction trade workers make less than $45 grand per year. That doesn't approach what I would call "very good".
I’m sure he is referencing people that are certified and not just laborers.
 
Here's the point....59% of all construction trade workers make less than $45 grand per year. That doesn't approach what I would call "very good".
In West Virginia, I would. My little sister sunk more than 100k for an AB and an MA. She works for the state.
My neighbor worked as an apprentice electrician until he gained his certification. Guess which one makes the higher salary. Which one do you think got more “bang for the buck?”
 
That construction and boilermaker stuff is seasonal. They get laid off in the winter. Good money while you can make it, but not a good steady income really.

I'd be proud to be able to do those jobs if I was a real man, but at the same time I'd be worried like hell that a robot will come along and steal it. Or illegal immigrants.
 
All high school seniors should be required to take a course regarding student loans. Often times, the students are offered more than they need which they take and blow on other things, then get stuck paying it back over decades. It’s considered “free money” when it is anything but. Likewise, high school seniors should also receive a class on trades. When I was in junior high, we’d have like one 9 weeks in gym class and one 9 weeks in health. Something like that to prepare them for the real world.
I would be very, very hesitant to push someone into construction trades unless they just didn't have the capability or desire to go to college. In 2019, the United States saw 5,333 deaths from construction accidents alone. This is the highest fatality rate of any industry.
 
In West Virginia, I would. My little sister sunk more than 100k for an AB and an MA. She works for the state.
My neighbor worked as an apprentice electrician until he gained his certification. Guess which one makes the higher salary. Which one do you think got more “bang for the buck?”
Everyone is not in WV. And your "herdman theory" that one instance is indicative of all instances holds no water. In many cases that AB and MA will allow your sister to work more years than the electrician. Construction jobs are dangerous and physically demanding in most cases. In addition 66% of construction trade workers are not eligible for pensions, which means many in this physically demanding occupation will have to work until they are 67 years old. Good luck being able to do that.
 
I don't fully buy the legislative expenditure pieces
https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/a-lost-decade-in-higher-education-funding
The colleges are extremely bloated with massive administrative staff (that don't actually enhance learning IMO), huge facilities (with carry over line item costs like utilities/maintenance). Colleges have become palaces - dorms, student centers, restaurants in campus, etc.
That's a separate issue. It's not like incoming students have any say about it, they have to attend what is already there.

You won't get any arguments from me on a total overhaul of the whole system.
 
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After all the overhead, that's probably all they make unless they're a good mom and pop outfit. If you can find a good mom and pop outfit that does decent work, that's the best you can get.

The big Roto Rooters, etc., charge big money and it's still hit or miss on whether they're worth a damn.
 
I was recently reading a book on plumbing engineering. The rules and codes are complicated. It is a lot more than carrying in a box of wrenches and wearing pants that show your butt crack.
 
The both of you together have nothing. When either/both of you die, you would give everything you've ever had for 1 day of my last 44 years.
The value of a day in the life of an old geezer living OW counting on subsidies in order to have health insurance is pretty low, so I disagree with your premise. Well, maybe the day you put your workers on commission for a production job, ignoring all federal work laws, that would have been a funny one to have.
 
Wayne County wouldn't be bad for retirement really. A man could live on a houseboat out at Beech Fork probably. Year round, mostly with the lake to yourself. I guess you could have a computer on there and still log in to bitch about stuff or whatever.

There's only maybe one place I'd pick to retire over that. Mason County, just because Beech Fork sometimes does have a lot of people. Mason County pretty much never does. River spots, McClintic, maybe even that Cornstalk place. Could even shake under the Silver Bridge, but probably not with the people driving on it.
 
Yes it does have to do with your basic beliefs. You want people to be responsible in paying back their education loan, but in a different world than we grew up in. It's a different game now. It costs more to go to college and people are making less wages. You're more or less forced to go to college, go head over hill in debt and spend a lifetime paying it off, or not go to college and make a wage that's not enough to do much of anything. It's irresponsible for us as a society to allow this game with these rules. No one in the United States should be working for less than $15/hour.
You’re not forced to go away for college and incur room, board and other living expenses. That’s been the real change in student debt - kids don’t borrow just for tuition and books, they borrow $50,000 a year, spend half that on school and the other half on rent, food, drinking and car payments. Then they graduate with a degree in pube braiding and are upset they don’t make $100,000 a year straight out of college.

my daughter is finishing her second degree. She has lived at home and taken most of her courses at OU regional branches. Tuition at OU Southern in Ironton is about $2,800 a semester and used books bought on Amazon are a couple hundred bucks a semester. That is less than $30,000 for a 4 year degree. Kids that end up with $250,000 in debt are idiots if that degree isn’t medical or law or something along those lines.

what these kids want is for us to pay for the educational experience they wanted, not the one they needed. That’s a major difference.

I remember seeing this girl on TV crying about her debt. She went to Tulane for 6 years getting her undergrad and masters in social work. $300,000 in debt for a job that pays $40,000 at best. Why pay for horrible decisions.
 
The value of a day in the life of an old geezer living OW counting on subsidies in order to have health insurance is pretty low, so I disagree with your premise. Well, maybe the day you put your workers on commission for a production job, ignoring all federal work laws, that would have been a funny one to have.
You're a simple educated idiot. $13 dollar Happy Meal guy. There is no federal law preventing someone be paid by piecemeal. Idiot.
 
You’re not forced to go away for college and incur room, board and other living expenses. That’s been the real change in student debt - kids don’t borrow just for tuition and books, they borrow $50,000 a year, spend half that on school and the other half on rent, food, drinking and car payments. Then they graduate with a degree in pube braiding and are upset they don’t make $100,000 a year straight out of college.

my daughter is finishing her second degree. She has lived at home and taken most of her courses at OU regional branches. Tuition at OU Southern in Ironton is about $2,800 a semester and used books bought on Amazon are a couple hundred bucks a semester. That is less than $30,000 for a 4 year degree. Kids that end up with $250,000 in debt are idiots if that degree isn’t medical or law or something along those lines.

what these kids want is for us to pay for the educational experience they wanted, not the one they needed. That’s a major difference.

I remember seeing this girl on TV crying about her debt. She went to Tulane for 6 years getting her undergrad and masters in social work. $300,000 in debt for a job that pays $40,000 at best. Why pay for horrible decisions.
As I've said many times, you're an idiot. I don't care one bit what they spent the money on, I want them able to use their accumulated debt for a home, car, etc. Punk.
 
As I've said many times, you're an idiot. I don't care one bit what they spent the money on, I want them able to use their accumulated debt for a home, car, etc. Punk.
So if they rack up $200,000 in debt and graduate with a low C average because they spent 4 years hanging out in bars and strip joints instead of studying, you want to pay for that?

oh wait, I forgot you don’t pay for anything, you’re a taker.
 
As I've said many times, you're an idiot. I don't care one bit what they spent the money on, I want them able to use their accumulated debt for a home, car, etc. Punk.
So they wasted money and you want to to forgive that debt?
 
So if they rack up $200,000 in debt and graduate with a low C average because they spent 4 years hanging out in bars and strip joints instead of studying, you want to pay for that?

oh wait, I forgot you don’t pay for anything, you’re a taker.
I don't care if they've racked up $1,000,000 in debt. If we can give billionaires a tax break worth millions, then pay off the student debt. idiot.
 
How about a compromise? If ten years after you graduate you are making more than 400 k a year, you have to pay back any government student loans you may have taken out. With interest.
 
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How about a compromise? If ten years after you graduate you are making more than 400 k a year, you have to pay back any government student loans you may have taken out.
Maybe just pay everyone's books (or go with open source material) and tuition
 
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Tuition is the killer for kids now. My dad went to Marshall College and he told me his tuition was $10. Mine was $150. Now $4,256.
 
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Tuition is the killer for kids now. My dad went to Marshall College and he told me his tuition was $10. Mine was $150. Now $4,256.
$4256 is dirt cheap and a great value, especially for local commuters. That is dirt cheap actually.
 
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It's as cheap as you're going to get though. Anywhere in Ohio is way more than Marshall. Marshall might be the cheapest in America. The best deal in America. I have the same job here that people paid 4-5 times more for their college to get.

And who the hell is dumb enough to loan all this money? If you are stupid enough to hand someone hundreds of thousands when they're majoring in Starbucks, you probably don't even deserve to get it back. Whether you do or not, you're not getting it back. Can't get blood from a turnip. A bunch of these loans should be turned down and never even handed out.

They should ask what the major is before loaning the money.
 
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