Okay, help me get my head around RRFA

[banker6796]

I know there's a couple threads on this already, and I have read views on both sides. Wanted to throw out a hypothetical and see how people responded.

Ok, I own a bakery. My business has the reputation of making the best cakes in town and I stay busy all the time. One day I have three walk in customers, each requesting a custom cake.

Customer one - represents a large tobacco firm in town. They are having a company party and want the cake made to look like a pack of Camels with the saying "cigarettes have been good to me" written around the perimeter. My mother died of cancer from smoking two years earlier.

Customer two - is a Muslim couple. They want to have a cake made that resembles the local mosque with the caption "death to the infidels" on it. My son just returned from Iraq where he lost a leg to an IED.

Customer three - is a gay couple that wants a wedding cake with a caption that reads "gay marriage is great". I am a conservative Christian.

Which of those cakes should I be required to make and why?

 

[GeauxHerd]

Originally posted by banker6796:
I know there's a couple threads on this already, and I have read views on both sides. Wanted to throw out a hypothetical and see how people responded.

Ok, I own a bakery. My business has the reputation of making the best cakes in town and I stay busy all the time. One day I have three walk in customers, each requesting a custom cake.

Customer one - represents a large tobacco firm in town. They are having a company party and want the cake made to look like a pack of Camels with the saying "cigarettes have been good to me" written around the perimeter. My mother died of cancer from smoking two years earlier.

Customer two - is a Muslim couple. They want to have a cake made that resembles the local mosque with the caption "death to the infidels" on it. My son just returned from Iraq where he lost a leg to an IED.

Customer three - is a gay couple that wants a wedding cake with a caption that reads "gay marriage is great". I am a conservative Christian.

Which of those cakes should I be required to make and why?

Libs would say all three. Personally I wouldnt make any of those cakes.

 

[herdit44]

Originally posted by GeauxHerd:

Originally posted by banker6796:
I know there's a couple threads on this already, and I have read views on both sides. Wanted to throw out a hypothetical and see how people responded.

Ok, I own a bakery. My business has the reputation of making the best cakes in town and I stay busy all the time. One day I have three walk in customers, each requesting a custom cake.

Customer one - represents a large tobacco firm in town. They are having a company party and want the cake made to look like a pack of Camels with the saying "cigarettes have been good to me" written around the perimeter. My mother died of cancer from smoking two years earlier.

Customer two - is a Muslim couple. They want to have a cake made that resembles the local mosque with the caption "death to the infidels" on it. My son just returned from Iraq where he lost a leg to an IED.

Customer three - is a gay couple that wants a wedding cake with a caption that reads "gay marriage is great". I am a conservative Christian.

Which of those cakes should I be required to make and why?

Libs would say all three. Personally I wouldnt make any of those cakes.

he asked what he would be required to do under the law, not what you think libs would want you to do, or for your bigoted opinion again.

i would say legally, you'd definitely be required to make #1, you'd probably be required to make #2, and you'd be able to get away without making #3 in a legal sense, but would probably receive tons of backlash for not.

 

[Walden Pond]

The only requirements are death and taxes.

I would just make the cakes and save my opinions on each for after they leave. I might check with the authorities afterwards about the people who requested the death cake, but other than that just make the cakes and let it go.

 

[pj(HN)]

Considering no self respecting Gay couple would every have a wedding cake with a 'caption' on it... That one is out... Not so sure if any self-radicalized Muslim would want to draw such attention to themselves with such a cake... The only one you have to worry about is the Corporate one... And sense the supreme court (hobby lobby ruling) ruled that corporations can have religious convictions then I believe they could be sue you under the "Freedom of Religion Act"...

 

[GeauxHerd]

Originally posted by herdit44:

Originally posted by GeauxHerd:

Originally posted by banker6796:
I know there's a couple threads on this already, and I have read views on both sides. Wanted to throw out a hypothetical and see how people responded.

Ok, I own a bakery. My business has the reputation of making the best cakes in town and I stay busy all the time. One day I have three walk in customers, each requesting a custom cake.

Customer one - represents a large tobacco firm in town. They are having a company party and want the cake made to look like a pack of Camels with the saying "cigarettes have been good to me" written around the perimeter. My mother died of cancer from smoking two years earlier.

Customer two - is a Muslim couple. They want to have a cake made that resembles the local mosque with the caption "death to the infidels" on it. My son just returned from Iraq where he lost a leg to an IED.

Customer three - is a gay couple that wants a wedding cake with a caption that reads "gay marriage is great". I am a conservative Christian.

Which of those cakes should I be required to make and why?

Libs would say all three. Personally I wouldnt make any of those cakes.

he asked what he would be required to do under the law, not what you think libs would want you to do, or for your bigoted opinion again.

i would say legally, you'd definitely be required to make #1, you'd probably be required to make #2, and you'd be able to get away without making #3 in a legal sense, but would probably receive tons of backlash for not.

You would nto be allowed to get away with not making #3. And Personally I would put poison in #2.

This post was edited on 4/1 2:44 PM by GeauxHerd

link

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

Customer #1 : That is copyright infringement. I would make one with a generic cigarette.

Customer #2: Poison their cake. Fvck 'em.

Customer #3: Make the cake and go to the wedding. I bet the DJ will be awesome.

 

[murox]

Originally posted by banker6796:
I know there's a couple threads on this already, and I have read views on both sides. Wanted to throw out a hypothetical and see how people responded.

Ok, I own a bakery. My business has the reputation of making the best cakes in town and I stay busy all the time. One day I have three walk in customers, each requesting a custom cake.

Customer one - represents a large tobacco firm in town. They are having a company party and want the cake made to look like a pack of Camels with the saying "cigarettes have been good to me" written around the perimeter. My mother died of cancer from smoking two years earlier.

Customer two - is a Muslim couple. They want to have a cake made that resembles the local mosque with the caption "death to the infidels" on it. My son just returned from Iraq where he lost a leg to an IED.

Customer three - is a gay couple that wants a wedding cake with a caption that reads "gay marriage is great". I am a conservative Christian.

Which of those cakes should I be required to make and why?

Nicely done. You shouldn't be required by law to make any of them. It's your business; you should be able to refuse service to whomever you want. The free market will sort it out.

 

[HerdandHokies]

Being forced to make any of them is where the anti-discrimination laws go too far. I get the reasoning behind telling a bakery "you'd make a white 3 layer cake for a straight couple, you have to for a gay couple." I personally think that is wrong and bad and unnecessary, but I don't know that it's unnecessary or more wrong than the alternative everywhere.

However, being forced to put a certain message I think infringes on the business more than denying it infringes on the customer. I can sit here and think of all sorts of examples like (and even worse than) the ones in the OP where I think it's wrong to force someone to offer a certain product, while still seeing that it's not on the same level of bad to force them to sell the same product to whoever wants to buy it.

 

[banker6796]

Nice dodge, pj.

My view on it is that I shouldn't be required to make any of the cakes, but I shouldn't be permitted from excluding any of them from buying a cake from me. If I had a generic wedding cake sitting there and a gay couple came in and I refused to sell them the cake, I see that as an issue. To me the issue is being required to meet specific requests or demands. If someone wants a big rainbow cake, that's cool. If they want me to write "support gay rights" across it and I don't want to then I shouldn't have to.

That's how I view the intent of this type of legislation.

 

[Walden Pond]

How much force are we talking here? If I really didn't want to write something on a cake, I would just refuse and face the consequences. What's the penalty here? Do you get a warning? Will cops blast through the doors and raid the icing? Confiscate the cakes for their own personal consumption.

 

[i am herdman]

The owners of these businesses are not playing it smart. Just tell them you are booked or can't get to it past the date of their wedding or event. Or just make them a shitty cake if you are forced to. Take pictures of the ground instead of the event. Nobody said you have to offer good service.

 

[banker6796]

Walden, the intent of the law is to protect the cake shop owner, in this example, from a discrimination law suit because he refused to inscribe the rainbow cake. Laws concerning Discrimination based on sexual preference already exists, however the definition of what defines discrimination is open to interpretation, which can vary widely. The intent of the type legislation passed in Indiana, in my opinion, is to make sure that people are protected from discrimination claims when the source of the alledged discrimination is based in the accused's religious beliefs.

In this example, without this legislation, the customer could assert that they were discriminated against because they are gay and wanted "support gay rights" written on the cake by the shop owner. Since the shop owner writes things on cakes all the time, the refusal to write something on the cake of a gay customer could be seen as discrimination and the shop owner could lose the case. The legislation would protect the shop owner because his religious beliefs should not be infringed upon with him being forced to support a message, through his work, that he opposes.

 

[i am herdman]

Gay rights are the new hip fad.

 

[GeauxHerd]

Originally posted by Walden Pond:
How much force are we talking here? If I really didn't want to write something on a cake, I would just refuse and face the consequences. What's the penalty here? Do you get a warning? Will cops blast through the doors and raid the icing? Confiscate the cakes for their own personal consumption.

The Baker that refused in Oregon is facing a 200k dollar fine. If a judge did that to me it would get him a bullet to the head.

 

[riflearm2]

Originally posted by murox:

You shouldn't be required by law to make any of them. It's your business; you should be able to refuse service to whomever you want.

Agreed.

Originally posted by murox:

. The free market will sort it out.

Not in many cases. And that is the problem.

 

[Walden Pond]

Rejecting a request that isn't profane or descriptively vile just doesn't seem like the graceful way to handle this.

 

[GeauxHerd]

Originally posted by Walden Pond:
Rejecting a request that isn't profane or descriptively vile just doesn't seem like the graceful way to handle this.

Nor is getting your ass sued off even though they found a replacement immediately

 

[Walden Pond]

What would they sue you for if you didn't reject the request?

You don't win people over with fighting. Now if somebody comes in and wants cuss words or graphically vile descriptions written on a cake, there's no way a judge is going to find against you for refusing to do that.

"Gay marriage is great." How does writing that on a cake mean you agree with it? Maybe it is great for somebody else. Not for me. Just because I write that out it doesn't mean I think it's great. Doesn't mean I support it.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

I agree with Walden.

"Happy 6th Birthday Johnny". I don't give a shit about your snot-nosed brat. He can cry all day for all I care.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[GeauxHerd]

Originally posted by Walden Pond:
What would they sue you for if you didn't reject the request?

You don't win people over with fighting. Now if somebody comes in and wants cuss words or graphically vile descriptions written on a cake, there's no way a judge is going to find against you for refusing to do that.

"Gay marriage is great." How does writing that on a cake mean you agree with it? Maybe it is great for somebody else. Not for me. Just because I write that out it doesn't mean I think it's great. Doesn't mean I support it.

But if you are a christian you cant willingly help them celebrate their sin, or its just as bad as if youd sucked the dick yourself.

 

[ThunderCat98]

Rifle, why do you think the free market will not regulate itself in these situations?
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[GeauxHerd]

Originally posted by ThunderCat98:
Rifle, why do you think the free market will not regulate itself in these situations?
Posted from Rivals Mobile

Because Gays only comprise 3% or so of the population and they dont have enough gay sex supporters to help them out. Look at Chick Fil A. They tried to boycott them and it ended up to be a windfall of profits for them because the vast majority of folks came out and ate at chcik fil a (and still do)

 

[extragreen]

Originally posted by GeauxHerd:

Originally posted by Walden Pond:
What would they sue you for if you didn't reject the request?

You don't win people over with fighting. Now if somebody comes in and wants cuss words or graphically vile descriptions written on a cake, there's no way a judge is going to find against you for refusing to do that.

"Gay marriage is great." How does writing that on a cake mean you agree with it? Maybe it is great for somebody else. Not for me. Just because I write that out it doesn't mean I think it's great. Doesn't mean I support it.

But if you are a christian you cant willingly help them celebrate their sin, or its just as bad as if youd sucked the dick yourself.

Just noticed you're from Ravenswood. Do you know Wayne Fridley by any chance?

 

[i am herdman]

Really what this boils down to is not gay rights. It boils down to the gay agenda folks wanting people to like them, either by guilt or force.

 

[GeauxHerd]

Extra, I didn't grow up here so my knowledge of native ravenswoodians is limited.

 

[Walden Pond]

It's all nothing. This whole thing is manufactured by the media.

In the real world, respectability and reason win out. People conduct business in an orderly manner. That just doesn't provide any shock value to sell TV advertisements. If TV only talked about the "boring" respectful and reasonable real world, then we may be more compelled to get out there and enjoy that world instead of paying $125 a month to hole up and enjoy theirs.

I'm going to pay the $125 anyway, but only because of sports. I'd give up cable right now if it wasn't for sports. Now there's a manufactured product that I enjoy. Glorifies winning, victory and accomplishment.

 

[extragreen]

Originally posted by GeauxHerd:
Extra, I didn't grow up here so my knowledge of native ravenswoodians is limited.

I was up there a few weeks ago on business and met Mr. Fridley. He is a Bronze Star recipient. My understanding is he participated in 25 or more soldier extractions by helicopter while under enemy fire.

 

[GeauxHerd]

Originally posted by extragreen:

Originally posted by GeauxHerd:
Extra, I didn't grow up here so my knowledge of native ravenswoodians is limited.

I was up there a few weeks ago on business and met Mr. Fridley. He is a Bronze Star recipient. My understanding is he participated in 25 or more soldier extractions by helicopter while under enemy fire.

Thats pretty cool.

 

[HerdandHokies]

When the hell did Walden start sounding reasonable? Am I losing it?

 

[i am herdman]

Originally posted by HerdandHokies:
When the hell did Walden start sounding reasonable? Am I losing it?

He has a point and has been reasonable for years. Most people conduct business fair, logically, and in good faith. When we reach these extremes, generally over inflated by outside sources, that is the point we get emotional.

I never ask people what color they are or what religion they are or are they gay or straight. Let's treat each other with respect and have a business agreement and shake hands at the end of the day. If you don't want to do business with me, then so be it.

 

[GeauxHerd]

Originally posted by i am herdman:

Originally posted by HerdandHokies:
When the hell did Walden start sounding reasonable? Am I losing it?

He has a point and has been reasonable for years. Most people conduct business fair, logically, and in good faith. When we reach these extremes, generally over inflated by outside sources, that is the point we get emotional.

I never ask people what color they are or what religion they are or are they gay or straight. Let's treat each other with respect and have a business agreement and shake hands at the end of the day. If you don't want to do business with me, then so be it.

I am all for the gays until they try to force someone or a business to assist them with their lifestyle ala the bakery thing and the photographer thing.

 

[pj(HN)]

" I do not think the law should give someone who sees the pope as the anti-Christ "religious liberty" grounds to use in justifying discrimination against me. Gays and lesbians are justified in feeling the same way. By taking reasonable religious liberty claims and then pushing and twisting them into a rationale for discrimination, opponents of gay marriage have picked a fight that will weaken religious liberty arguments overall." E.J. Dionne

 

[pj(HN)]

Originally posted by GeauxHerd:

Originally posted by i am herdman:

Originally posted by HerdandHokies:
When the hell did Walden start sounding reasonable? Am I losing it?

He has a point and has been reasonable for years. Most people conduct business fair, logically, and in good faith. When we reach these extremes, generally over inflated by outside sources, that is the point we get emotional.

I never ask people what color they are or what religion they are or are they gay or straight. Let's treat each other with respect and have a business agreement and shake hands at the end of the day. If you don't want to do business with me, then so be it.

I am all for the gays until they try to force someone or a business to assist them with their lifestyle ala the bakery thing and the photographer thing.

The last time I checked... In America all men are created equal? So why do you hate America?

 

[riflearm2]

Originally posted by ThunderCat98:
Rifle, why do you think the free market will not regulate itself in these situations?
Posted from Rivals Mobile

Let's say you live in a town of 3000 people. Besides McDonald's, you have four locally owned restaurants. In your town of 3000, there are 15 people who are in wheelchairs. As one of those restaurant owners, would you spend $3000+ to have a wheelchair ramp and accessible entrance installed? You wouldn't get your money back by paying for the handicapped accessible stuff for decades having such a small market of wheelchair bound residents. If a private business owner can choose who he serves, none of those restaurant owners would select to serve those in wheelchairs based on the free market.

The same thing holds true in many areas. The town I live in doesnt take fondly to people "who don't fit in" (that was the phrase I was told by a realtor). Once those "who don't fit in" start wandering from the hotel area to the residential areas of the beach, the police befriend them, find out why they are walking or standing in the area, and give them two options: 1) get slapped with a loitering ticket 2) accept the ride from the officer who then drops them off back on the Daytona Beach side of the border. And this is on the coast in Florida, not even where the majority of racist rednecks live in the state.

You our don't think it would be even worse in the deep south? Some areas do not have a large enough and diverse population to allow the free market to settle things. Look at the chic-fil-a situation.

 

[Walden Pond]

Originally posted by GeauxHerd:
I am all for the gays until they try to force someone or a business to assist them with their lifestyle ala the bakery thing and the photographer thing.

What would be the best way to force them to stop being so forceful? Keep fighting back and beat them down or just fill the order and thank them for their business?

What have you got to lose? Is God really going to stand there on judgment day and yell, "You made that cake for those gays instead of just slamming the door in their face. For that, you shall be cast in the lake of fire." Does that make sense? Just making the cake doesn't mean you're going to go join them in their ways. It just means you dealt with people the best possible way given the circumstances.

 

[riflearm2]

Originally posted by Walden Pond:

Does that make sense?

youre trying to have a conversation about logic and sense with a religious person about their religion? good luck with that.

 

[GeauxHerd]

The wheel chair situation is different than the current battle with the new age brown shirts.

 

[riflearm2]

Originally posted by GeauxHerd:
The wheel chair situation is different than the current battle with the new age brown shirts.

Will you please leave the god damn conversation to adults?

The guy clearly asked why I responded as I did to murox's quote. His statement was that any private business owner should be able to refuse business to anyone. The wheelchair situation clearly fits an example of why I don't agree fully with murox's statement, which is what the guy asked about.

 

[pj(HN)]

Originally posted by GeauxHerd:

Originally posted by Walden Pond:
How much force are we talking here? If I really didn't want to write something on a cake, I would just refuse and face the consequences. What's the penalty here? Do you get a warning? Will cops blast through the doors and raid the icing? Confiscate the cakes for their own personal consumption.

The Baker that refused in Oregon is facing a 200k dollar fine. If a judge did that to me it would get him a bullet to the head.

Wow... I missed this gem...