Pittman

[5150]

5150 how many D1 football players cone out of WV annually? Any idea? I'm curious. We are getting the Mitchell kid from Point Pleasant. Once again not every kid wants to stay here to play college football. As for kids from WV uh you might want to watch the Herd men's basketball team!

I know someone from the Eastern Panhandle and Jefferson High has two kids was/is begging for attention from Marshall(no one will even return a phone call). One is a linebacker and he has since verbal to Navy and the other is a WR that broke Randy Moss's single season TD record. He had down senior season because they had no QB to throw to him. Right now it looks like JMU for him but he is still field offers. Their are two players from the Wheeling area. Both have offers from Akron, and both have said Marshall has not even called for films. I have been hard on Dana H in the past for this at he is now at least taking a look at the WV kids, but I don't see Doc even really looking at film to even see if their are kids that can help his program.

Btw, anyone know why David Smith from GW was not offered last year? I liked that kid.

 

[5150]

Then again, neutral, based on the first three games, you MAY NOT want to watch the Herd men's basketball team!!

Btw...I think our hoops coach has gone over board on this WV thing. Its fine to take role players but not sure you can build an entire team around WV kids. The basketball team is a 307 RPI right now. I don't understand why his upperclassman are not playing better, and I think we needed to schedule light this year to get the program going in a better direction. His team needs to start playing better fast or lots of bitching will start.

 

[Trebel06]

Basketball team's problem is lack of depth (Burks, Kelly and Taylor are pretty good pieces).. But we have no depth and our starting PG at the moment should really be our 6th man.. But, once we do get the Elmore kid eligible you're going to be looking at a basketball team with three of its top six players from the state of WV (Elmore, Burks and Browning)

 

[5150]

Basketball team's problem is lack of depth (Burks, Kelly and Taylor are pretty good pieces).. But we have no depth and our starting PG at the moment should really be our 6th man.. But, once we do get the Elmore kid eligible you're going to be looking at a basketball team with three of its top six players from the state of WV (Elmore, Burks and Browning)

I spoke to a former D1 basketball player last night and he agrees with you on the talent. He said he thinks this team as 4 to 6 d1 players on it at this point but everyone else are projects. The projects very well may develop but this team lacks players. Problem is one of the best players on the team in Kelly is a senior. Btw, my guy is not sold on Browning being a starter at this level. He thinks he makes for a good role player.

 

[19MU88]

I find it funny that people say that we can't know that Doc is being considered due to his "transparency" (or lack of) are the same ones that are sure that he isn't being considered. How do you guys know he isn't being considered? Give me a link or evidence that shows he's not. Your thoughts that you are passing off as facts sound an awful lot like opinions to me.

GK - - my transparency comment was about Martin Ward cramping up. I do not know that he is or isn't getting looks, 5150 seems to be sure he isn't. In any case, I can only assume to the extent he gets looks, an AD will closely examine the 6 year record(as well as career), wins losses and changes in schedules before investing large amounts of money in a HC. That's how I conclude he isn't going anywhere.

 

[5150]

GK - - my transparency comment was about Martin Ward cramping up. I do not know that he is or isn't getting looks, 5150 seems to be sure he isn't. In any case, I can only assume to the extent he gets looks, an AD will closely examine the 6 year record(as well as career), wins losses and changes in schedules before investing large amounts of money in a HC. That's how I conclude he isn't going anywhere.

I heard just this morning that Doc's age is a factor in not getting looks. Everyone is looking for the young up and coming offensive coach, and Doc does not fit that mold. Again,

 

[bbneutralfan]

oldeherd I've seen the men's basketball team play - at Morehead and Ohio and home to JMU. Like I said kids from WV.
I'm not saying they are bad or cannot play the game. Just not D1 and this schedule.

 

[bbneutralfan]

Also oldeherd one WV kid that I think can play sits on DDs bench - Jacob Kilgore (Spring Valley). Heck he was WV AAA First Team All State and MSAC Player of the Year BUT he is an "invited walk on" hence, I guess, DD does not want to make the other players mad by playing an "invited walk on." Kilgore has seen a couple of minutes in two games and is 4-4 in FGs but sits the bench. Play the best you have especially when that kid can shoot. JMO

 

[Trebel06]

I spoke to a former D1 basketball player last night and he agrees with you on the talent. He said he thinks this team as 4 to 6 d1 players on it at this point but everyone else are projects. The projects very well may develop but this team lacks players. Problem is one of the best players on the team in Kelly is a senior. Btw, my guy is not sold on Browning being a starter at this level. He thinks he makes for a good role player.

I agree with your guy.. Browning is the one I was referring to should be and will be our 6th man once we get Elmore.. However, if we had more depth he'd be more of a 7th or 8th man but we don't have the depth currently to push him any further down than 6th

 

[19MU88]

I heard just this morning that Doc's age is a factor in not getting looks. Everyone is looking for the young up and coming offensive coach, and Doc does not fit that mold. Again,

Not everyone.

Miami just hired 55 year old Mark Richt (56 in Feb)
Illinois just hired 62 year old Cubit

 

[Trebel06]

Also oldeherd one WV kid that I think can play sits on DDs bench - Jacob Kilgore (Spring Valley). Heck he was WV AAA First Team All State and MSAC Player of the Year BUT he is an "invited walk on" hence, I guess, DD does not want to make the other players mad by playing an "invited walk on." Kilgore has seen a couple of minutes in two games and is 4-4 in FGs but sits the bench. Play the best you have especially when that kid can shoot. JMO

The Burks kid can play and he's from WV.. Kid is shooting nearly 50% from the floor 44% from 3 point range and is averaging a little more than 12 points per game.. And that's with the 0 he scored against Tennessee in a game he only played 8 minutes.

 

[pdbailey]

Appears to be some truth to this. Almost a tinge of arrogance and spitefulness with our HC. Can't help thinking about the 2010 season disaster at the end of the WVU game, which will always define Doc's main coaching shortcoming to me. We had a chance to clinch the win with about 8 minutes to go and the ball near the WVU goal line. Doc puts in a freshman running back who proceeds to fumble; they recover, rest is history.

Yet on the sidelines we had 2 guys, Martin Ward and Booker (Andre?), holdovers from the prior staff. Both had been significant in our prior season ending bowl win over Ohio U., one was the bowl MVP. So there they stood, while Doc's freshman back fumbled away an opportunity for one of the greatest wins in Marshall history!

Why? Arrogance? Plain stubbornness? Or just Doc doin it "his way"? Were these 2 guys, holdover players, in his dog house for something they did off the field or in practice? Or was Doc just setting an example to the holdover players to do everything exactly his way or you won't play! Cost us a great win, in my book, whatever his "reason or reasons".

Considering Booker and Ward were both dinged up and unable to go when Martinez was put in, I believe it is safe to say that your comments have zero basis and shows your hatred of Doc.

 

[pdbailey]

I understand what you are saying oldeherd, but I also think Doc brought a lot of discipline to a team that needed it. Doc isn't perfect but overall I like what he has done here, but there are times I question why things are done, like Pittman, while at the game I was wondering why he wasn't playing.

Pittman has been banged up pretty badly for several weeks so i doubt it is that he is in Doc's doghouse. He has done nothing but perform when healthy and supposedly gives 110% in every practice when healthy.

 

[pdbailey]

Pruett was able to take talent that was subpar and make them elite stars. He was able to get players to play together who didn't have as much talent as the other team. It seems unless Doc has superior talent to the other team then we don't have a chance. We were defeated before we even set foot on WKU field. The players and coaches knew it deep down I believe. It showed on the field in the 1st half. They didn't know what to do. The play calling showed that.

Pruett was also able to get to troubled kids better also. They looked at him as a father figure. Doc is more of an authoritarian it seems. Not someone who can connect with troubled kids and help them make the right decisions. I don't remember anytime in the past where so many top players were either benched or let go from the team. That is a problem. At some point to compete year in and year out you have to be able to get to these kids. We aren't FL or OSU. We can't just let top players go and expect the same result with the next guy coming in. We don't have that luxury. Something needs to change.

The only time we didn't have more talent than the teams we were playing when Pruett was the coach is when we played one of the big BCS schools. We always had far more talent than any of the teams we played in our conference outside of Meyer's best Bowling Green Team and Rapelisberger's Sr Yr Miami (OH) Team.

As for the 2nd paragraph, the only thing to change would be to quit recruiting any problem kids, but the problem with that is that a lot of the problems don't show up until they get on campus where recruits have to adjust to a new adult environment and some can't handle it.

 

[pdbailey]

Im glad Doc is at Marshall, Doc is a nice fit for the program, but at the end of the day there is a reason he is not getting looks from other schools. I sat with two older guys at homecoming last year and they agreed. Doc gets out coached more then he out coaches someone on the other side.

Pitt was highly interested in him last year. Plus, just because two old guys say he gets out coached doesn't make it true as you aren't smart just because you are old.

 

[pdbailey]

If Doc is getting looks then please let us know. Besides, if you know anything about the game, and listen to people talk everyone knows Docs X's and O's are not his strength and the Florida kids require lots of hand holding (or in this case a lot of them are shown the door). I not saying Doc needs to go but there is a reason he has not gotten a head job before now, and there is a reason his name is not getting more looks at current openings. Me personally only problem I have with Doc is he recruits very few WV kids(for example their is a TE and RB both from the northern panhandle that have offers from Akron that are studs).

Doc was supposed to be our new HC instead of Snyder back in 2005, but a high level booster threatened to pull support if we gave the job to a WVU guy and then pushed Snyder on Marcum. The rest is history.

 

[pdbailey]

If Doc is getting looks then please let us know. Besides, if you know anything about the game, and listen to people talk everyone knows Docs X's and O's are not his strength and the Florida kids require lots of hand holding (or in this case a lot of them are shown the door). I not saying Doc needs to go but there is a reason he has not gotten a head job before now, and there is a reason his name is not getting more looks at current openings. Me personally only problem I have with Doc is he recruits very few WV kids(for example their is a TE and RB both from the northern panhandle that have offers from Akron that are studs).

I guess we should just pull the offers from our 3-star TE commit and offers from some legit 3/4 star RBs and offer those two instead because they played well in the WV playoffs. We have plenty of WV kids on the roster and I'm honestly surprised we have as many as we do.

 

[beefcake0520]

Pitt was highly interested in him last year. Plus, just because two old guys say he gets out coached doesn't make it true as you aren't smart just because you are old.

I agree. I don't understand how anyone can say Doc has been outcoached. Who was he outcoached against?? Solich?? Brohm, who simply had a much more experienced team? Stockstill where we had crappy execution? Honestly the HC's job is to manage the program, not call the plays and he has no control of being too many horse's down like this year. He can't make the kids execute the plays and to say he doesn't hold them accountable would be a lie. The coaches who get "outcoached" if the playing field is level, would be the coordinators. Like Heater not having an answer to the slant with MTSU and Ohio 2 years ago. With Legg its hard to say, you see how well that machine runs when all the playmakers are on the field and a decent Oline and how tough it is to run when you have so many 2nd and 3rd string guys out there. Doc did his job by learning time management since his first year and making necessary changes, hence getting rid of Rippon. He did his job by giving us a good 3 deep at most if not all positions, had it not been for that there would have been no way in hell that we reach 9-3 with the injuries we have suffered, weak schedule or not. Ok end of rant.

 

[5150]

Pitt was highly interested in him last year. Plus, just because two old guys say he gets out coached doesn't make it true as you aren't smart just because you are old.

From what I heard Doc was highly interested in Pitt not vice versa. Pitt was worried he would leave for WVU...and getting out coached...its bad when Bill Stewart out coaches you even when you have the play book

 

[beefcake0520]

From what I heard Doc was highly interested in Pitt not vice versa. Pitt was worried he would leave for WVU...and getting out coached...its bad when Bill Stewart out coaches you even when you have the play book

Yeah you forget that Doc was in his first year here and playing with not enough horses in the stable against a very good WVU team. Give the same situation now and the outcome is very different, he did take it to overtime and it really could have been won even then, did he not?

As far as the Pitt thing, I am calling bull crap.

 

[5150]

Yeah you forget that Doc was in his first year here and playing with not enough horses in the stable against a very good WVU team. Give the same situation now and the outcome is very different, he did take it to overtime and it really could have been won even then, did he not?

As far as the Pitt thing, I am calling bull crap.

Then provide a link to where Pitt had interest?

 

[oldeherd]

Considering Booker and Ward were both dinged up and unable to go when Martinez was put in, I believe it is safe to say that your comments have zero basis and shows your hatred of Doc.

Hell, pd, what in the hell you think Doc did this year? Yes, he played Van Horn and Devon Johnson when they, as it now turns out, WERE DINGED UP IF NOT MORESO!!! So can't have it both ways; and by playing them Doc definitely foreclosed any extra season, if available, for Devon, and may have cost Van Horn the same. So does that show your blind, don't question a damn thing, follow him off a cliff, ass kissing adoration of Doc, pd??

 

[oldeherd]

Also oldeherd one WV kid that I think can play sits on DDs bench - Jacob Kilgore (Spring Valley). Heck he was WV AAA First Team All State and MSAC Player of the Year BUT he is an "invited walk on" hence, I guess, DD does not want to make the other players mad by playing an "invited walk on." Kilgore has seen a couple of minutes in two games and is 4-4 in FGs but sits the bench. Play the best you have especially when that kid can shoot. JMO

Neutral, I certainly am not saying we should not recruit WV players, by any means. Recruit those who are, or are likely to be, or develop into, legitimate D1 players who can help build a WINNING PROGRAM, which should be, along with being a conference and post season contender, among our main GOALS.

Got a Tamar Slay or Mark Patton out there? Hell yes, go recruit them, like Greg White did. But when you go overboard on instate recruiting, the talent pool gets shallow. In the last decade or so, we have had many instate players, with mixed results: remember "Stuff" Lynch, Tink Brown, the Ibanez kid from Wheeling, Deon Dobbs and Carlton King from Fairmont, Andre Cunningham from Matewan, etc., etc. Some were pretty good, some ended up playing in WVIAC. Bottom line in last 30 years overall, we have won VERY FEW CHAMPIONSHIPS and played very little in the postseason!!

As for football, I hope that Doc and his staff make every effort to seek, and recruit, instate players whenever possible. Look at this years's state championships. 2 teams that may have legit D1 prospects will play for triple A title. One area that we may not be recruiting hard enough is Northern Panhandle and Ohio Valley from P'Burg up to Hancock County, including across the river in traditional strong football areas like Bellaire, East Liverpool, Steubenville Ohio. Supposedly the Wheeling Park team has best wide receiver in the state, and we need help in that area. Just wonder if they have any D1 linemen prospects, since they have dominated defensively, including against Pt. Pleasant last week! Just a couple of thoughts on instate recruiting. . .

 

[19MU88]

Doc was supposed to be our new HC instead of Snyder back in 2005, but a high level booster threatened to pull support if we gave the job to a WVU guy and then pushed Snyder on Marcum. The rest is history.

wow. then somebody lied, and based on your comments it was Doc. Don't you recall the public statements by Kayo saying Doc knows he was not offered this job after he had said he turned it down....someone can find a link that's probably better than pd and bleeds making stuff up.

 

[19MU88]

Considering Booker and Ward were both dinged up and unable to go when Martinez was put in, I believe it is safe to say that your comments have zero basis and shows your hatred of Doc.

no one hates Doc, ok well i'm sure some do, but not very many, I know I don't, I just don't think he is perfect like you do. As far as the dinged up comment, yes I think Doc did say that, Martin said he could have gone but..........I guess we believe what we want. anyway, tough loss and a lot of second guessing could be done for that 4th quarter.

 

[5150]

I guess we should just pull the offers from our 3-star TE commit and offers from some legit 3/4 star RBs and offer those two instead because they played well in the WV playoffs. We have plenty of WV kids on the roster and I'm honestly surprised we have as many as we do.

considering a 3 star running back just de-committed then a spot just opened up...also we have on 3 stat commits at all on our list

 

[5150]

no one hates Doc, ok well i'm sure some do, but not very many, I know I don't, I just don't think he is perfect like you do. As far as the dinged up comment, yes I think Doc did say that, Martin said he could have gone but..........I guess we believe what we want. anyway, tough loss and a lot of second guessing could be done for that 4th quarter.

yes, no one dislikes Doc but we are making an honest attempt to discuss his strengths and weaknesses as a coach. I think his weaknesses are in game planning and WV recruiting. His strengths are Florida recruiting and development of players.

 

[5150]

Neutral, I certainly am not saying we should not recruit WV players, by any means. Recruit those who are, or are likely to be, or develop into, legitimate D1 players who can help build a WINNING PROGRAM, which should be, along with being a conference and post season contender, among our main GOALS.

Got a Tamar Slay or Mark Patton out there? Hell yes, go recruit them, like Greg White did. But when you go overboard on instate recruiting, the talent pool gets shallow. In the last decade or so, we have had many instate players, with mixed results: remember "Stuff" Lynch, Tink Brown, the Ibanez kid from Wheeling, Deon Dobbs and Carlton King from Fairmont, Andre Cunningham from Matewan, etc., etc. Some were pretty good, some ended up playing in WVIAC. Bottom line in last 30 years overall, we have won VERY FEW CHAMPIONSHIPS and played very little in the postseason!!

Fairmont Senior has Gary Stills sons as dlineman and I don't think WVU plans to offer the older son that will be a senior next year. Also, I know for a fact Doc's coaches have not even looked at the kids from Jefferson to determine if he wants them or not which means he does not care. He can at least call for film and invite them down to tour the campus. The problem Doc did not recruit WV at WVU. Shoot, he did not recruit Aaron Dobson at WVU and he is a pro football player.

As for football, I hope that Doc and his staff make every effort to seek, and recruit, instate players whenever possible. Look at this years's state championships. 2 teams that may have legit D1 prospects will play for triple A title. One area that we may not be recruiting hard enough is Northern Panhandle and Ohio Valley from P'Burg up to Hancock County, including across the river in traditional strong football areas like Bellaire, East Liverpool, Steubenville Ohio. Supposedly the Wheeling Park team has best wide receiver in the state, and we need help in that area. Just wonder if they have any D1 linemen prospects, since they have dominated defensively, including against Pt. Pleasant last week! Just a couple of thoughts on instate recruiting. . .

 

[beefcake0520]

Then provide a link to where Pitt had interest?

Provide one that shows he was the one interested instead of pitt as you are suggesting?

 

[5150]

Provide one that shows he was the one interested instead of pitt as you are suggesting?

my point, their is nothing, which means he was not even close to getting the job. Now, as someone close to Doc that thinks maybe he had a shot but he never did or someone from the press would have pick it up.

 

[herdit44]

my point, their is nothing, which means he was not even close to getting the job. Now, as someone close to Doc that thinks maybe he had a shot but he never did or someone from the press would have pick it up.

lol

 

[beefcake0520]

my point, their is nothing, which means he was not even close to getting the job. Now, as someone close to Doc that thinks maybe he had a shot but he never did or someone from the press would have pick it up.

No, they will not advertise anything unless a deal was struck, you have no sources and neither do I. All we know is doc was on their list. that's it. we don't know what happened between then and his contract extension. Doc is good at closed lip stuff.

 

[dshoe123]

Doc was supposed to be our new HC instead of Snyder back in 2005, but a high level booster threatened to pull support if we gave the job to a WVU guy and then pushed Snyder on Marcum. The rest is history.

Wow! Where did you get that story? Plain and simply isn't true!!!! Doc interviewed with then interim President Mike Farrell and Mike liked the interview and for a day Doc was a consideration. How you can infer from that that he was "supposed to be our new HC" is beyond reason!! He was really never in the mix. Marcum on the other hand was a non-factor in this hire, Mark Snyder was never his choice, but to Kayo's credit, when Mark was hired he jumped on board.

The job came down to Mark and Jim Donnan, they were the ONLY real candidates considered, each had major support from major donors. Neither threatened to pull support if their guy didn't get the job and neither did.

Quit treating every hire as though it was a major conspiracy or power play! They are seldom like that. In this case, Kayo was on his way out the door as far as the power structure at MU was concerned, and while he was accorded a seat at the table, he wanted to offer the job to Larry Kueck, that position cost him any real role in the process.

Simply, the 'powers that be' at the time wanted a fresh start and Mark represented that to them, Donnan was the choice early in the week, but by late in the week they had turned to Mark............the rest is history. But the reality is this: They were the only two ACTUALLY considered for the job. I have first-hand knowledge of this.......not just stories told over the years since.

 

[dshoe123]

I find it funny that people say that we can't know that Doc is being considered due to his "transparency" (or lack of) are the same ones that are sure that he isn't being considered. How do you guys know he isn't being considered? Give me a link or evidence that shows he's not. Your thoughts that you are passing off as facts sound an awful lot like opinions to me.

opinions being passed off as fact are the lifeblood of these message boards.....

 

[19MU88]

Wow! Where did you get that story? Plain and simply isn't true!!!! Doc interviewed with then interim President Mike Farrell and Mike liked the interview and for a day Doc was a consideration. How you can infer from that that he was "supposed to be our new HC" is beyond reason!! He was really never in the mix. Marcum on the other hand was a non-factor in this hire, Mark Snyder was never his choice, but to Kayo's credit, when Mark was hired he jumped on board.

The job came down to Mark and Jim Donnan, they were the ONLY real candidates considered, each had major support from major donors. Neither threatened to pull support if their guy didn't get the job and neither did.

Quit treating every hire as though it was a major conspiracy or power play! They are seldom like that. In this case, Kayo was on his way out the door as far as the power structure at MU was concerned, and while he was accorded a seat at the table, he wanted to offer the job to Larry Kueck, that position cost him any real role in the process.

Simply, the 'powers that be' at the time wanted a fresh start and Mark represented that to them, Donnan was the choice early in the week, but by late in the week they had turned to Mark............the rest is history. But the reality is this: They were the only two ACTUALLY considered for the job. I have first-hand knowledge of this.......not just stories told over the years since.

Thanks for clearing that up Dshoe. A lot of BS getting thrown around like fact around here. Do you recall Doc saying he turned down the job (or maybe withdrew name) and Kayo publicly stating Doc knows he wasn't offered the job? I googled, but only link I found was it being discussed on herdfans.

 

[Herd-nificent]

Is age really a factor? We hired a 67 year old basketball coach.............

 

[dshoe123]

Thanks for clearing that up Dshoe. A lot of BS getting thrown around like fact around here. Do you recall Doc saying he turned down the job (or maybe withdrew name) and Kayo publicly stating Doc knows he wasn't offered the job? I googled, but only link I found was it being discussed on herdfans.

Doc did in fact withdraw...... and Kayo did in fact say that. I don't believe or recall Doc ever saying he was offered the job however. He got a nice raise at FL out of it.