ADVERTISEMENT

Possibly more teams on the move

That's not how it happened. The Big East settlement was $22.5 million. The WVU athletic department had already paid $2.5 million before the case was settled. WVU borrowed the remaining $20M from the WVU Foundation. Taxpayer money was never involved. Never. The day after WVU officially joined the Big 12, the conference paid off the entire $20M loan to the WVU Foundation. WVU agreed to pay back half of that money to the Big 12. The Big 12 withheld $2M of WVU's TV money each of the next 5 years. All debts were paid off at the beginning of WVU's 6th year in the Big 12.
I'm sure you want that to be true. Just like you wish your life had turned out better. It isn't, and no amount of repeating it will make it so.

If you have a relative with a job, check out a wonderful article on TV numbers from the Leftover Little 8 vis the AAC.

Hint: About the same, and WAY below the Big 2 and the rest of the P5.
 
Anyone who thinks WVU is not in a good position for this next round of moves is deluding themselves. Give the devil his due. WVU has the 15th most wins all time of any FBS program. Their financials are strong. They do well in the ratings game for Espn. They have a stable fan base. When the FBS split happens, they are comfortably above the cut line. And good for them. It doesn’t really affect us. Now their prospects for competing long term in this changing landscape could be another matter. When FBS splits from the “have nots” it does not mean they are getting rid of the have nots. They will just have new have nots. That is where schools like WVU have to be nervous.

Marshall just needs to focus on its product for its regional fan base. This means a league with regional rivals and travel friendly games against teams with fan bases. My test for conference mates is always the “closet test.” Open the closet of a prospective team. If you open the closet of a Bowling Green fan you see a bunch of OSU stuff and 1 BGSU Gameday shirt. That is a problem. Same for FIU and FAU I would wager. Not true of teams like App State. I don’t sense it is true of ODU which is why I would not give up on them. Definitely not true of Liberty. We need programs with passionate fan bases that pass the closet test.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TwolfHerdfan
Anyone who thinks WVU is not in a good position for this next round of moves is deluding themselves. Give the devil his due. WVU has the 15th most wins all time of any FBS program. Their financials are strong. They do well in the ratings game for Espn. They have a stable fan base. When the FBS split happens, they are comfortably above the cut line. And good for them. It doesn’t really affect us. Now their prospects for competing long term in this changing landscape could be another matter. When FBS splits from the “have nots” it does not mean they are getting rid of the have nots. They will just have new have nots. That is where schools like WVU have to be nervous.

Marshall just needs to focus on its product for its regional fan base. This means a league with regional rivals and travel friendly games against teams with fan bases. My test for conference mates is always the “closet test.” Open the closet of a prospective team. If you open the closet of a Bowling Green fan you see a bunch of OSU stuff and 1 BGSU Gameday shirt. That is a problem. Same for FIU and FAU I would wager. Not true of teams like App State. I don’t sense it is true of ODU which is why I would not give up on them. Definitely not true of Liberty. We need programs with passionate fan bases that pass the closet test.
Well said.
 
Anyone who thinks WVU is not in a good position for this next round of moves is deluding themselves. Give the devil his due. WVU has the 15th most wins all time of any FBS program. Their financials are strong. They do well in the ratings game for Espn. They have a stable fan base. When the FBS split happens, they are comfortably above the cut line. And good for them. It doesn’t really affect us. Now their prospects for competing long term in this changing landscape could be another matter. When FBS splits from the “have nots” it does not mean they are getting rid of the have nots. They will just have new have nots. That is where schools like WVU have to be nervous.

Marshall just needs to focus on its product for its regional fan base. This means a league with regional rivals and travel friendly games against teams with fan bases. My test for conference mates is always the “closet test.” Open the closet of a prospective team. If you open the closet of a Bowling Green fan you see a bunch of OSU stuff and 1 BGSU Gameday shirt. That is a problem. Same for FIU and FAU I would wager. Not true of teams like App State. I don’t sense it is true of ODU which is why I would not give up on them. Definitely not true of Liberty. We need programs with passionate fan bases that pass the closet test.
Does MU pass the closet test?
 
Does MU pass the closet test?
I think so. We have a passionate fanbase. It may not be the largest but we are known as a fanbase that travels well and supports it team. I’d say we pass the test with flying colors. Jmho
 
Just for fun, I checked my own closet. Three Marshall sweatshirts, three golf shirts in various shades of green, an assortment of hats and visors, and an old tattered MU flag.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ilmherdfan
I think we pass. We have all acknowledged that we have a core 20,000 fans who are there through it all and travel. Those are the bleeds green types. I think that core alone is enough for us to pass. We have another 10,000 front runner type fans. Not knocking them. Every program needs them. We could use for that group to grow. I still think this group qualifies as primarily Marshall fans, though I think they likely fall into the casual WVU observer category as well. Oddly enough I think we have another 10,000 fans who follow all things Marshall and never come to games. Mostly older folks. Then we am undetermined number of trendy fans that we basically lose to WVU or OSU whenever we aren’t playing well.

Another way of looking at it is take the biggest home game on the schedule and put it on opposite the nationally televised biggest game of your in-state P5 rival. Does it gut your attendance? We pass. App State passes. Most of the MAC fails. I bet the CUSA Texas schools fail. Tulane fails. UCF passes. Colorado State passes. Fresno State passes. I sense Arkansas State passes. Liberty and Coastal pass.
 
How ‘bout it Duke? More green, or more bleu in your closet?
Very simple, blue. Blue is more in my color wheel 😃. Plus two of my children are Duke alums but I do have a good amount of green, Marshall specific. My family has more degrees from Duke than Marshall. Also don’t forget I’m an Ohio State season ticket holder for football but I don’t like red that much. Every fall we get to see just a great variety of games despite giving many of the tickets away.
 
  • Like
Reactions: W-S HerdFan
WVU has the 15th most wins all time of any FBS program.

Umm, OK. Yeah, WVU got a lot of wins over George Washington and VMI in the SoCon in the 50s and 60s. And then over the likes of Rutgers and Temple in the 80s. And this is relevant today because?
Their financials are strong

I get that line. Crap-ridi has spewed it for as long as I can remember. Fact is, as USA Today's wonderful and accurate database shows, no. Subsidized and living off P5 TV money. When that is gone, well...
. They do well in the ratings game for Espn.

No. Check out the Athletic's wonderful and fact filled article. The Leftover Little 8 bring very little to TV networks. Most named for the state state colleges do well at home. And that home has 0.59% of the US population and is losing population faster than any other place, by a factor of three times more than the only other two states to lose population.

No body without a connection to WV gives a flying flip about WVU. Nobody. Disney knows that, because they look at NUMBERS and FACTS.
They have a stable fan base.

They do? Howcome they were running 4 for 1 specials when they were last left behind in the old Leastleftovers?

Open the closet of a prospective team. If you open the closet of a Bowling Green fan you see a bunch of OSU stuff and 1 BGSU Gameday shirt. That is a problem.

What you are describing is being IN, but not POPULAR IN, big cities. AKA the AAC. WVU's new conference.
 
I think we pass. We have all acknowledged that we have a core 20,000 fans who are there through it all and travel. Those are the bleeds green types. I think that core alone is enough for us to pass. We have another 10,000 front runner type fans. Not knocking them. Every program needs them. We could use for that group to grow. I still think this group qualifies as primarily Marshall fans, though I think they likely fall into the casual WVU observer category as well. Oddly enough I think we have another 10,000 fans who follow all things Marshall and never come to games. Mostly older folks. Then we am undetermined number of trendy fans that we basically lose to WVU or OSU whenever we aren’t playing well.

Another way of looking at it is take the biggest home game on the schedule and put it on opposite the nationally televised biggest game of your in-state P5 rival. Does it gut your attendance? We pass. App State passes. Most of the MAC fails. I bet the CUSA Texas schools fail. Tulane fails. UCF passes. Colorado State passes. Fresno State passes. I sense Arkansas State passes. Liberty and Coastal pass.
I think your suggested litmus test is a good one, but having grown up in New Orleans, I disagree about Tulane fans. Most of them dislike LSU and would never pick an LSU game over the biggest, meaningful Tulane game (assuming the Tulane game actually means something). The media attention in New Orleans and the general population of Louisiana would be locked in on LSU, but actual Tulane fans would not be. Now the Saints would make for a different conversation. Fortunately for Tulane the Saints don't play on Saturday, but a large percentage of Tulane fans would watch a Thursday night Saints game before a Thursday night Tulane game for sure (present company excluded).
 
  • Like
Reactions: ohio herd
Anyone who thinks WVU is not in a good position for this next round of moves is deluding themselves. Give the devil his due. WVU has the 15th most wins all time of any FBS program. Their financials are strong. They do well in the ratings game for Espn. They have a stable fan base. When the FBS split happens, they are comfortably above the cut line. And good for them. It doesn’t really affect us. Now their prospects for competing long term in this changing landscape could be another matter. When FBS splits from the “have nots” it does not mean they are getting rid of the have nots. They will just have new have nots. That is where schools like WVU have to be nervous.

Marshall just needs to focus on its product for its regional fan base. This means a league with regional rivals and travel friendly games against teams with fan bases. My test for conference mates is always the “closet test.” Open the closet of a prospective team. If you open the closet of a Bowling Green fan you see a bunch of OSU stuff and 1 BGSU Gameday shirt. That is a problem. Same for FIU and FAU I would wager. Not true of teams like App State. I don’t sense it is true of ODU which is why I would not give up on them. Definitely not true of Liberty. We need programs with passionate fan bases that pass the closet test.
wvu isn't in a good position. If they were, the ACC would have taken them...hell, they would have taken them the first time.
You failed to mention the true value wvu adds to a conference. They add virtually none. Conferences could care less about wins at this point, if it were the case, Texas wouldn't even get a sniff from the SEC. But since Texas produces the most money, it makes them the most valuable program in America.

As for MU, as I have said, the G5's need to kick some teams out. Most of the MAC would be gone since their eye test gamedays are horribly attended. The lower half of CUSA should be relegated to lesser levels.
Its evident many G5's simply do not market their AD's and don't seem to care.
I will say, the G5's actually would benefit from teams who have good W/L records more than (not entirely) teams in big markets.
Markets and money matter to the P5's and actually competing and winning matter to the G5's.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Real SamC
I think your suggested litmus test is a good one, but having grown up in New Orleans, I disagree about Tulane fans. Most of them dislike LSU and would never pick an LSU game over the biggest, meaningful Tulane game (assuming the Tulane game actually means something). The media attention in New Orleans and the general population of Louisiana would be locked in on LSU, but actual Tulane fans would not be. Now the Saints would make for a different conversation. Fortunately for Tulane the Saints don't play on Saturday, but a large percentage of Tulane fans would watch a Thursday night Saints game before a Thursday night Tulane game for sure (present company excluded).
This is a good point that I had not thought about. I go to New Orleans and all the bars on football Saturdays seem to be overflowing with LSU fans. However, as you state, given the population of the city, Tulane can pass the fan test while having a relatively minor percentage of the city being in their corner.
 
A note on WVU. If some of you are right and they wind up in the AAC or somehow on the outside looking in, I will not lose any sleep. My original point was to warn against this gleeful anticipation that their delusional fans are going to get their comeuppance. I still say it is almost certainly not going to happen. They will struggle to ever again be relevant on the level they have been 4-5 times in their past in this new landscape. They will fall into the lower half of the new power level for all the reasons you all mention. However, I still think they are comfortably above the cut line when the split comes along.

Maryland was the swing vote to keep them out of the ACC the first time around. The landscape has vastly changed now. The ACC will need to strike to add competitive teams and have precious few options if Notre Dame says no. Who else is out there for them? Cincinnati? UCF (FSU would not allow it)?

I get my financial data from the Knight Commission Database. WVU's total athletic revenue has risen 32% from 2014 to 2019, outpacing the rate their expenses have risen. Their total revenue is $102.68 million with only 4% coming from student fees and none of it from government sources. They bring in 19% or $19 million each from ticket sales and donations. Those are healthy numbers that compare very favorably to many programs in the ACC (clearly ahead of teams like NC State and Georgia Tech and in line with teams like VT).

As for fans, I am sure they have had ups and downs as most programs outside the elite do, but they are somewhere in the 30th range for 5 year average. I am not saying they are some juggernaut. We are all very likely to see them struggle for the next 20 years to compete in this new environment. However, with the numbers above and the strength of their basketball program, if you are waiting for them to be jettisoned to a non-power league, you are going to have a long wait.
 
Demographics is destiny.

The Big 12 is either dying (most likely) or “raiding” the AAC, which makes it a mid-major conference.

The SEC is flush, thank you very much.

The Pac 12 (and all this ho-ha about some Big 12 Pac 12 merger is silly) is three time zones away. You really think people in Oregon or California could find West Virginia on a map?

The Big 10 has an academic element to it. WVU is among the lowest academic institutions in all of Div I, especially among the P5. Leaving that aside, it just brings nothing to the table, due to its TINY and SHRINKING fan pool.

Which brings us to the ACC. Again, it comes down to market size. The way the ACC’s contract with ESPN works is that it gets way more $$ for the ACCN from states with ACC teams than the much lower national rate. And they get it from the whole state, which is a big deal for the ACC because of the states with dual ACC-SEC members, like Kentucky, where everyone must pay in-state rates for both networks, even though UL’’s fanbase is much smaller. So you are the ACC and you could add WVU, and get WV. Or you could add, say, Cincinnati and get Ohio. Easy decision. And that does not even take into account academics and fan and student behavior.
 
A note on WVU. If some of you are right and they wind up in the AAC or somehow on the outside looking in, I will not lose any sleep. My original point was to warn against this gleeful anticipation that their delusional fans are going to get their comeuppance. I still say it is almost certainly not going to happen. They will struggle to ever again be relevant on the level they have been 4-5 times in their past in this new landscape. They will fall into the lower half of the new power level for all the reasons you all mention. However, I still think they are comfortably above the cut line when the split comes along.

Maryland was the swing vote to keep them out of the ACC the first time around. The landscape has vastly changed now. The ACC will need to strike to add competitive teams and have precious few options if Notre Dame says no. Who else is out there for them? Cincinnati? UCF (FSU would not allow it)?

I get my financial data from the Knight Commission Database. WVU's total athletic revenue has risen 32% from 2014 to 2019, outpacing the rate their expenses have risen. Their total revenue is $102.68 million with only 4% coming from student fees and none of it from government sources. They bring in 19% or $19 million each from ticket sales and donations. Those are healthy numbers that compare very favorably to many programs in the ACC (clearly ahead of teams like NC State and Georgia Tech and in line with teams like VT).

As for fans, I am sure they have had ups and downs as most programs outside the elite do, but they are somewhere in the 30th range for 5 year average. I am not saying they are some juggernaut. We are all very likely to see them struggle for the next 20 years to compete in this new environment. However, with the numbers above and the strength of their basketball program, if you are waiting for them to be jettisoned to a non-power league, you are going to have a long wait.

Once more, if this rang true (and honestly, the ACC has access to numbers and data a simple google search can't dig up), wvu would be in already.
Instead, wvu cries, "Our history with Pitt, VT, and Miami!!!"
A single game a year can be scheduled as an OOC game, and likely in a location where revenue can be more lucrative.
It already is heading that way with wvu getting PSU, VT, and Pitt in OOC games.
Its most likely to keep them that way.

Texas and OU certainly showed just the value of association of their brands, were at least half of the total revenue of the conference itself. Upon their departure the value of the Big 12 was cut in half. HALF!
This includes lucrative financial programs like OSU, Baylor, Kansas, and TCU.
Do you honestly believe wvu has more value than they do?
I think a better time frame would be to look at wvu's years in the BE when they were decent.

Unless your name is UK, Duke, UNC, Kansas, and a very slight handful of others, it doesn't mean a thing nowadays. Jim Boeheim even spoke out against it, and clearly knows basketball has taken a back seat. wvu has a decent basketball team but certainly not something that they can boast true value from.

wvu doesn't have the power nor financials to convince ESPN to re-draw a TV deal for an entire conference that say...Notre Dame does.

Also, wvu is hardly a darling of ESPN, considering their "Requiem for the Big East" had a stereotypical presentation of wvu as a bunch of dumb backwoods rednecks...so much so either the SGA president or someone like him, wrote to ESPN, demanding an apology and demanding ESPN to a special on the glory of wvu sports.
I imagine the ESPN semi-higher ups passed out in laughter.

You're more likely to see the ACC get raided next for its top money making teams (ACC is very top heavy as it is). Several teams will head to the SEC for their money making ability, some will go to the Big 10, and the rest will be left to pasture, wvu included.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Real SamC
And the other half of the story is that the remaining legitimate P5 leagues, the ACC, Pac 12, and Big 10, have held a meeting on forming what they are calling “the alliance”. They have agreed that:

- They have NO INTEREST in any of the Leftover Little 8.
- They will work together to counter the SEC.
- They will have a scheduling alliance.

The hand of ESPN is easy to see here. They just need one of the Leftover Little 8 to try to find shelter and it voids the TV deal. As reality sets in to the LL8, they will start to do as ESPN want them to. WVU and ISU to the AAC, Texas leftovers and OSU to the MWC, and ESPN gets Texas and Oklahoma in the SEC, perhaps as early as next year.
 
Just for fun, I checked my own closet. Three Marshall sweatshirts, three golf shirts in various shades of green, an assortment of hats and visors, and an old tattered MU flag.
I keep a small assortment of tattered WVU items around the house for uses such as wiping up any sludge and used oil spills on the garage floor whenever I work on the family vehicle; to mop up whenever there is a rare toilet backup; and, finally, for emergency use in case we experience an extreme toilet paper shortage!! 😀
 
A husband goes to wash a shirt and asks the wife what settings on the washer to use. The wife asks what the shirt color is and does it have any imprint on it. The husband yells back - "Yes, gold and blue, and says WVU". The wife yells back - "use hot water and 5 cups of bleach!" lol!
 
  • Like
Reactions: W-S HerdFan
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT