Potential Game Changer

[GoHerdMarshallYes]

Of course these are early stages and merely just a bill allowing for such a thing, hut it's good to see MU moving somewhat forward.

Bill introduced to create law school at Marshall University

HUNTINGTON — The question of why Marshall University doesn’t have a law school is a lingering one for many people with a connection to the institution.

www.herald-dispatch.com

 

[MU PIKE]

I hope that it happens.

 

[herdfan06]

Even if it happens, my wife will not allow me to attend.

 

[Catfanatic1979v1]

The school is named after a judge. Marshall should definitely have a law school.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

We’ll see how Gordon Gee and the WVU ass kissers in Charleston deal with this.

 

[MU PIKE]

Brad can handle them.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

Brad can handle them.

Considering that he is a major donor to WVU as well, it will be interesting.

 

[RhinoD]

This bill is a start to look into if a law school can be financially viable at MU, if so, it should be able to get off the ground... If not, stick with what we have and work to improve our current programs.

 

[The Real SamC]

There are currently 1181 bills introduced in the House, and 580 in the Senate. Last year 280 actually passed. Don’t get excited about introducing a bill, many, if not most, are introduced by local politicians knowing they have no shot, for consumption by their constituents.

WVU law school, like most things at WVU, if 4th rate. But there are schools, operated for profit, that are lower still. If you look at the Bar’s numbers, about half of new lawyers went to WVU, about a quarter went to for profit places like Appalachian, Capitol, Ohio Northern, Cooley and others; and about a quarter went to better schools than WVU, like Virginia, Ohio State, Cincinnati, Pitt, and the yet better ones than that in the elite private schools, etc.

West Virginia doesn’t need more lawyers. The population is in decline, the business climate is stagnant.

The game changers, for MU, are, IMHO, two. Expansion of programs in STEM and health that WV really needs; and ending duplicate programs, and outright closure, of most WV state colleges. Starting with the taxwaste in Institute.

BTW, (not politics, just facts) since the Republican Party took over the legislature, the number of WVU graduates, and the number of lawyers in the legislature are at post WWII lows.

 

[awebbOH]

There is zero need for a law school at Marshall. As it stands, there are far too many law schools in the U.S. Law schools are separated by tiers in their rankings, and WVU is already nearing the bottom. Marshall's law school would be the same, meaning that we would not be competitive for great students and would have a below average employment rate for graduating students. It also would not serve a need in West Virginia, which is Marshall's mission. The bottom line is that a Marshall law school would serve a drain on our finances with no real benefit, and I say this as a Marshall alum and an attorney.

The game changers for Marshall include focusing on what is important in today's employment climate--engineering, pharmaceuticals, aviation, etc.

The legal profession is not the future.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

There is zero need for a law school at Marshall. As it stands, there are far too many law schools in the U.S. Law schools are separated by tiers in their rankings, and WVU is already nearing the bottom. Marshall's law school would be the same, meaning that we would not be competitive for great students and would have a below average employment rate for graduating students. It also would not serve a need in West Virginia, which is Marshall's mission. The bottom line is that a Marshall law school would serve a drain on our finances with no real benefit, and I say this as a Marshall alum and an attorney.

The game changers for Marshall include focusing on what is important in today's employment climate--engineering, pharmaceuticals, aviation, etc.

The legal profession is not the future.

I'd like for Marshall to establish a school of Optometry and one focused on Prosthetics. Both are in demand. The diabetic population is exploding and the need for Prosthetists is growing rapidly.

 

[GoHerdMarshallYes]

Makes me wonder if Brad knows more than he's letting on, like if there's going to be a part of some major economic impact in the area, and work alongside the politicians to make it happen.
Optimistic thinking, I know, but the last time MU began professional degrees like Pharmacy, they proved they could not only sustain them, but were also academically accredited by their governing bodies.
Despite what wvu brass tried to make you believe.
Also, it would be nice for MU to have equal governing presence in the state senate to begin with. If anything, this sort of shows there is.

 

[GoHerdMarshallYes]

This bill is a start to look into if a law school can be financially viable at MU, if so, it should be able to get off the ground... If not, stick with what we have and work to improve our current programs.

It would be nice if WV just legalized marijuana and MU offered the state's only Botany program.

 

[ohio herd]

I say Marshall should have a Law school. I know quite a few people I went to Marshall with that ended up going to Law School in another state. For goodness sake, if Liberty, Regent, Appalachian ( not appy state) , Elon, Campbell. Lincoln Memorial, 3 schools in Puerta Rico. Capitol and Ohio Northern ETC can. have a law school then by golly we can have one I say

 

[MStap]

As a Marshal alum/fan and a lawyer, I’ve always been on the fence about this. I think they should do a financial study on it and if it is self sustaining (actually self sustaining without subsidies) it makes sense. One of the biggest benefits is that it would get us more affluent alumni members. While lawyers generally do well within the legal profession, they also have significant connections to the business and political worlds. Of my friends that went to Marshall and law school, I would say about half went out of state. The majority would have stayed ay Marshall if there were a law school.

I hate that they want to put it in Charleston.

 

[Herd Insider]

The idea is ok. The location is brilliant!

 

[GoHerdMarshallYes]

I hate that they want to put it in Charleston.

Why? Isn't the problem MU has, is not expanding? Why not expand your law school into the state capitol?

 

[ohio herd]

Why? Isn't the problem MU has, is not expanding? Why not expand your law school into the state capitol?

Why not the main class be on campus with an extension site for night classes in Charleston

 

[MStap]

Why? Isn't the problem MU has, is not expanding? Why not expand your law school into the state capitol?

Because having a core campus is extremely beneficial as many of the undergrad and advanced degrees overlap and work off of each other. WVU's law school is in morgantown instead of Charleston and UK's is in Lexington instead of Frankfort... which is not a coincidence. When in law school we were constantly interacting with political science, business, criminal justice, history, ect. Also, I've known numerous Marshall grads that factor in the hour each way commute to Charleston when picking grad schools because it is a pain in the ass when you have to make it 3 times a week.

 

[MU PIKE]

The south Charleston campus is big enough with room to expand.

 

[MUTHFAN]

Why? Isn't the problem MU has, is not expanding? Why not expand your law school into the state capitol?

I’ve got to agree, I would think having the school in Charleston would be quite advantageous. Just think about all the employers in Charleston that would be able to put their employees through the program. Plus it’s not like south Charleston is far from the main campus.

 

[oldeherd]

I’ve got to agree, I would think having the school in Charleston would be quite advantageous. Just think about all the employers in Charleston that would be able to put their employees through the program. Plus it’s not like south Charleston is far from the main campus.

Mixed emotions about the South Charleston location. Yes, we've got a "campus" there, one building or so on the side of a hill along with a not that large parking lot. A new facility will cost some significant $$$ to properly move enough dirt, level part of the mountain side, and then build a proper, modern facility that's not "barebones" and will entice students to the school. Remember, on the main campus, we have ESSENTIAL facilities that have cried out for decades for serious and necessary upgrades, renovations, etc. Like the Morrow Library, like the main Science Building, etc. MU has yet been able to secure sufficient funds from Charleston/the Legislature to properly maintain and upgrade such facilities, nor been given enough Capital bonding capacity to do so with university only funds.

Article/editorial in current H-D Media says MU should/would build a non-traditional type of law school, aimed at those who work, intend to attend part-time, etc. Emphasis on night classes, week-end classes, and the like. Also says MU will have to determine the need/desires of potential students for such a school, including students from SE Ohio, Eastern KY, in addition to in state students. If out of State students are to be a key factor, then Huntington and not Charleston would be a better location. (Or perhaps a "compromise" location in Teays Valley somewhere near the Marshall Health facility there).

To me, a real "GAME CHANGER" for Marshall would truly be to have someone, super rich alum, a mega jackpot lottery winner, etc., come along and drop something like a couple of hundred million $$$$$$ or so in MU's lap! Just like some dude did up at Western Michigan University not so long ago,

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

If we don’t put one in Charley West, UC is rumored to have that on their plate

 

[The Real SamC]

If we don’t put one in Charley West, UC is rumored to have that on their plate

Let them. Harvey High is perfect host for a 6th rate proprietary for-profit law school. Charleston bureaucrats and the like can get night school law degrees to further their careers; and local kids turned down by WVU will have an alternative to Appalachian, Capitol, Cooley, etc.

MU has only so much political capital. Spending any on an unneeded law school is a waste. Expand STEM and health and make the business school world class.

WV has more lawyers than it needs.

 

[GoHerdMarshallYes]

I’ve got to agree, I would think having the school in Charleston would be quite advantageous. Just think about all the employers in Charleston that would be able to put their employees through the program. Plus it’s not like south Charleston is far from the main campus.

The graduate campus is in South Charleston.

Hell, its a ballsy move by MU...not only setting up a law school, but setting it up at the bastion of wvu law school employment.
I like it.
MU's not just opening a door, they're kicking it down.
<Chef's kiss>

 

[awebbOH]

The graduate campus is in South Charleston.

Hell, its a ballsy move by MU...not only setting up a law school, but setting it up at the bastion of wvu law school employment.
I like it.
MU's not just opening a door, they're kicking it down.
<Chef's kiss>

A Marshall law school will not be competitive with WVU. It will be ranked below WVU. Marshall will be competing with Thomas Cooley. No thanks.

 

[GoHerdMarshallYes]

Did anyone actually read the article?

It's non-traditional and meant to fill the needs of current employees/employers in the area who want to further their knowledge of law...business, criminal, etc.
Done through more customized scheduling for those ALREADY WORKING PROFESSIONAL JOBS.
This means there won't be an oversaturation of lawyers, but rather people already living and working IN THE AREA, with a law degree.

While this is in its infancy, Brad Smith even said they'll need to survey the areas they target, and figure out what adjustments can be made.

Plus, who's to say this couldn't mean MU can't have an on-campus law school in the future?

 

[The Real SamC]

This means there won't be an oversaturation of lawyers, but rather people … with a law degree.

People with law degrees are called “lawyers”.

We have enough.

 

[oldeherd]

Oh, now someone is talking about a THIRD LAW SCHOOL!!! OMG, one in Charleston/S. Charleston, the WVU school in the Hole, and perhaps a future one on MU ON CAMPUS in H-town. Geeze, total absence of REALITY!! I mean, perhaps, in the 24th Century or later, and West Virginia has a population of 5 to 6 million people, maybe then such a plan is feasible, maybe advisable. But in the immediate, and short term, future only when "PIGS FLY"!!!

 

[GoHerdMarshallYes]

Oh, now someone is talking about a THIRD LAW SCHOOL!!! OMG, one in Charleston/S. Charleston, the WVU school in the Hole, and perhaps a future one on MU ON CAMPUS in H-town. Geeze, total absence of REALITY!! I mean, perhaps, in the 24th Century or later, and West Virginia has a population of 5 to 6 million people, maybe then such a plan is feasible, maybe advisable. But in the immediate, and short term, future only when "PIGS FLY"!!!

"HOOO HOOO HEEE HEE HA HA!!! I MADE A FUNNY!!!"

 

[GoHerdMarshallYes]

People with law degrees are called “lawyers”.

We have enough.

No, we don't. According to the schools you're following.

New Mexico State is without one. So shove it goddamn Sam.

 

[The Real SamC]

No, we don't.

Stick to things you know.

WV has 27 lawyers per 10K residents. That is 37th. WV is generally 49th or 50th in everything. When you knock off the mega government, financial and commercial big cities like DC, NY, LA, Boston, and Miami, WV finishes 25th, or average.

By comparison, WV has acute shortages of nurses, STEM qualified workers, STEM teachers, and about anything else you can name in the hard science field.

WV ain’t fighting Mississippi for dead last because we don’t have enough lawyers.

 

[Marshall2004]

I graduated from WVU Law after undergrad at Marshall. For what it is worth, WVU was for a number of years a Tier II law school (U.S. News ranks law schools using a four tier system). Just before I got there WVU fell to tier III and it was all the talk amongst the students and faculty. They worked their way back up to Tier II in pretty short order, but in 2021 I see that they were ranked 111 in the country, which unless the criteria has changed, places them outside of Tier II again, which to my memory was schools 50 to 100.

My class had 171 students in it, and pretty much every alum I talked to who was older and practicing law in the state was alarmed at the growing class sizes. Maybe that had something to do with declining ranking. Anyway, class sizes started to fall and bottomed out sometime in the twenty-teens at just a little over 100, but have started to creep back up nearing 120 again.

I do think it was hypocritical of WVU to cry lack of need for a second law school while they had 170+ class sizes. A class size of more like 100 seems more where they should be, but I'm sure they want that tuition money. My opinion is that another law school is not really something that fills a need in the State. Marshall has usually been about filling needs, and I just don't see it. We could focus our energies elsewhere to great affect. That said, many times the hostility in the legislature comes from so many legislators being WVU Law graduates and so there is something to be said for educating our own legislators. I still come down on the side of focusing elsewhere though.

 

[herdfella]

I am a little confused as to why it seems to be of concern if West Virginia "needs more lawyers". Obviously, some would remain in state, but why would the determining factor of whether or not to create a program be focused on if WV "needs" it.
No one asks if MBA's are all staying in WV, I'd venture to guess that upwards of 75% of the MD's we graduate leave the area. Shouldn't a large part of the focus be creating a worthwhile advanced degree program that graduates successful individuals? The goal is to attract students to the university and hopefully gain some donors in the long term.

 

[raleighherdfan]

I am a little confused as to why it seems to be of concern if West Virginia "needs more lawyers". Obviously, some would remain in state, but why would the determining factor of whether or not to create a program be focused on if WV "needs" it.
No one asks if MBA's are all staying in WV, I'd venture to guess that upwards of 75% of the MD's we graduate leave the area. Shouldn't a large part of the focus be creating a worthwhile advanced degree program that graduates successful individuals? The goal is to attract students to the university and hopefully gain some donors in the long term.

Boom.

 

[awebbOH]

I am a little confused as to why it seems to be of concern if West Virginia "needs more lawyers". Obviously, some would remain in state, but why would the determining factor of whether or not to create a program be focused on if WV "needs" it.
No one asks if MBA's are all staying in WV, I'd venture to guess that upwards of 75% of the MD's we graduate leave the area. Shouldn't a large part of the focus be creating a worthwhile advanced degree program that graduates successful individuals? The goal is to attract students to the university and hopefully gain some donors in the long term.

Yes. The focus should be creating on a "worthwhile" advanced degree program that graduates "successful individuals," of which a Marshall law school is not likely to achieve.

Law schools are successful based on their rankings and a number of factors determine those rankings. Some of the most significant categories are the accomplishments of faculty and the employment rate among graduates.

The stated purpose of this law school is to graduate non-traditional students in an after-hours setting. By this very nature, the law school will not attract accomplished faculty because no serious law professor wants to work in such a setting. The employment numbers are not going to be there to support this type of law school, and we know that because a host of non-traditional law schools (see NKU, Cooley) have terrible employment statistics.

So, we are looking at a law school that will be ranked below WVU in the state (meaning, the lowest ranking among law schools) and that will have poor employment statistics (really, the entire point of law school is to be employed as a lawyer).

This will be against a backdrop of uneasy enrollment numbers in law schools across the country and an overabundance of unemployed attorneys graduating from law school. Brad Smith was measured in his comments regarding the law school. As having a daughter who is an attorney, I think he understands the economics of this.

It really comes down to what you view as "worthwhile" and who is a "successful individual." What I personally do not think is worthwhile is using resources to support a low-tier law school for non-traditional students that is likely to lead to low employment rates, which I think any study of this law school should support.

The days of a law school being important to a higher ed institution have long passed by. Practicing law is not the profession it once was. STEM is the future for higher ed and has been for some time.

 

[The Real SamC]

I am a little confused as to why it seems to be of concern if West Virginia "needs more lawyers". Obviously, some would remain in state, but why would the determining factor of whether or not to create a program be focused on if WV "needs" it.

The purpose of all state colleges in WV is to SERVE the state of WV. Something WVU and that taxwaste in Institute forgot long ago.

Now, is this East Germany? Does a person have a right to get a degree at MU and GTFO for more well governed and thus prosperous areas? Sure. It seems many of the posters on this board did just that, as did our (hopefully gone soon) head basketball coach.

But, the needs of the state must be paramount.

As other have explained above, this will be a low rated proprietary law school. A place for people turned down by WVU’s 4th rate effort; or more likely who made life decisions that precluded 3 more years in full time college, to get a law degree, generally later in life than normal.

Those types of people are not going to go to some big city and become superstars. They are going to get sucked into the legal meat grinder in Charleston. A system that already cannot employ all that just WVU produces.

Plus WVU, and remember that when he challenged the MU Medical School, Gee stated “my job is not to be concerned about the health of West Virginians, but only about the health of the WVU Medical Corporation”, is going to throw a hissy fit. We were within a few months of losing the Corps of Engineers HQ (one of the largest employers in the county) to Pittsburgh and Cincinnati, because WVU opposed allowing Marshall to grant engineering masters (something it generally wants its personnel to work towards and which most COE HQ cities have a school that does). THAT kind of attitude will be what we face.

We only have so much pull in Charleston. Lets use it wisely for programs that can make the state great again. Don’t waste one ounce of it on an unneeded law school. This is a perfect project for Harvey High. They, as a private school, don’t need to care what WVU wants, and a 6th rate law school would fit right in with all of their other joke programs.

 

[MUTHFAN]

I’ll trust other opinions above my own on this topic as I have no ball at play in the field of law, but I will say this.

Yes I do imagine that it is advantageous to practice law in the state you went to school as legislation differs from state to state, but is not essential. Thus the argument that WVU is already pumping out too many lawyers for the state is a very valid argument.

Would also pose difficult to recruit a strong faculty to a non traditional schedule.

At the same time, nothing ever stays the same in this world and if you do not adapt to the environment then you simply are not successful. Non traditional hour classes and online classes seem to be the way of the future. Ohio University has proven it’s taken students from our area for such typed programs. I think you would see the same for a Marshall Law school. To have a law school inside of the portion of the state with the highest concentration of lawyers that caters to non traditional students, would most certainly offer benefits that a Morgantown law school simply couldn’t.

 

[MUTHFAN]

That said I would like to see Marshall or the University of Charleston build a program in Charleston for the simple fact that I hate how dominated our legislature is by WVU.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

That said I would like to see Marshall or the University of Charleston build a program in Charleston for the simple fact that I hate how dominated our legislature is by WVU.

UC hates our guts as well. Ed Welch was about as bad as Gee for wanting Marshall to go away.