Of course there’s a lot more nuance to it than just getting hit in the chest. From what I’ve read/remember you need about 50Joukes of energy to stretch the myocardium enough to cause vfib. It’s not enough to necessarily cause physical damage to chest wall. The force of two nfl players running full steam at each other with all of the force being applied to anterior chest wall could reach that
Prayers Up For Damar Hamlin
- Thread starter wvkeeper(HN)
- Start date
You know, I've learned to avoid using absolutes such as always and never but I've watched football for approximately 50 years and this is the first incidence of a heart attack that possibly resulted from blunt force trauma to the chest, but I'm glad so many are able to already attribute what the cause was.
I was curious about the number of times this has occurred and stumbled upon the following article. It says pulmonary contusions are extremely rare in football players. Just something to think about.
"Pulmonary contusion is the most common lung injury following blunt chest trauma [3,4] but has rarely been reported as a complication from participation in sports. Only three cases of pulmonary contusion in athletes have been documented in the literature with all of them occurring in football players."
But force spread out across chest wall is not same as force from a small but fast moving non pliable ball.
Pressure = Force / Area.
It is possible (I still think most likely)…but it is exceedingly rare in football .
That is what I was saying. The force would be spread out over the area of the collision. It was targeted like a baseball or fist or something like that.
If you watch the video replay of the hit it looks like the hit is more localized to the front of the chest wall around the heart. Point of tee higgins’ shoulder is only thing that makes contact with Hamlins chest. Look I’m not an absolutist either and I’m not trying to be argumentative, especially with the MDs in this thread, I’m just trying to explain, especially to herdman and murox, how commotio cordis is the most likely cause based on what happened even if it is exceedingly rare
Two things can be true at the same time: (1) the vax is causing a significant increase in cardiac events/deaths in otherwise healthy persons, and (2) athletes can die from commotio cordis. As Doc Hungus suggests, let's wait until we have all relevant info before speculating either way.
The odds are also astronomical that the player is hit at the exact spot and time of heart beat to cause the event everyone is diagnosing and repeating. Hey long shots happen maybe it was but I'm not sure which theory being discussed really has better/worse odds.
People are passionate about vaccines. It's like Elon said it's much easier to fool people than to get them to admit they were fooled.
Carry on gentlemen.
Hmmm...
www.rookieroad.com
"Shoulder pads are a piece of protective equipment that covers the shoulders, chest, and upper back. They are usually padded with a hard protective shell in order to provide the best impact resistance."
Best Football Shoulder Pads
"Shoulder pads are a piece of protective equipment that covers the shoulders, chest, and upper back. They are usually padded with a hard protective shell in order to provide the best impact resistance."
I don't think any of us are qualified to make that statement, especially without access to medical history, test results, etc...
The problem with that is that is not what occurred. The players weren't closing at full speed and Hamlin was hit somewhat off center. Could commotio cordis be the cause? Absolutely. Could it be something else? Absolutely as well.
Watch the video. The point of contact is with tip of the shoulder into the chest of Hamlin
There are probably about 3 people on this forum that learned about commotio cordis in school. One of them is an oncology physician now. I know for a fact that it is something I had to study in school and prepare for on a daily basis when providing sports medicine coverage for athletic events.
So that makes you qualified to make the diagnosis from a distance without examining or attending to the player?
Look at the angle. It would be a diagonal blow and the force would be spread out. Not saying that it could not be what you and others are saying but it wasn't even a direct hit.
Both objects(the players were moving) at different angle. Both have weight and mass and force. IT wasn't like he was stopped and took a direct hit while the one man was moving and he was stopped.
With baseball in most occassions where this happens you have a much smaller object, the ball, moving, and higher speed and I would guess on most instances the player, a fielder, is still or slightly moving forward and takes a direct shot from a frontal hit. Also, without padding. The ball off a bat is moving at a relatively high speed(of course that would depend who hits and how hard), does it bounce or is it a line drive, etc. The player somewhat stationary gets him from a front view by a small hardened object to the breast bone without padding. I would imagine the age of the individual might come into play. A 12 year old kid vs an elite grown man athlete.
It just seems to me they were rushing to judgement. Are they taking into account he had been running? For the game and on that play? Was he dizzy before? We don't know. They just rushed right out and said it is this.
I did and I saw that. I also understand that Hamlin was wearing shoulder pads that protect the chest.
You also said this which wasn't the case.
Since you have studied this let me ask an honest question. What I have read about commotio cordis refers to "sudden" death which seems to infer the heart stops beating at the moment of impact. If that is indeed the case how did Hamlin stand-up before falling backwards?
Yes. And IMO whatever the cause ends up being...we will never be told differently.
The NFL would never cover up things. Oh wait, brain injuries.
Think they have a vested interest in not wanting mandatory vaccines looked at?
If that was "all it takes," we would see it much more often in the violent game of professional football. The fact that it has NEVER HAPPENED IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME should give you pause when diagnosing it from your computer.
I'm not even claiming it's the vax. I'm just saying the coincidences are starting to pile up.
If it walks like a duck quacks like a duck then yes I’m going to believe it’s a duck. There was a direct blow to chest wall. Athlete got up took a step then collapsed with cardiac arrest. That is the textbook way commotio cordis presents. So I’m sorry if I’m inclined to believe what I saw versus some conspiracy theory you’re trying to push on every incident involving cardiac issues
The lack of incidence before is what gives me pause. Never seen in the NFL before that I’m aware of and only 7 cases I see over a 20 year span in college and high school.
However, the absolute number of high school players is >>> NFL players.
Aside: I don’t know how much these players go through for physicals - I’m clueless . Do they get echos? Or baseline EKGs?
Don’t take my word for it, read what the most published cardiologist in the world has to say about it:
Interpreting Damar Hamlin's Sudden Collapse
Watching the tape, reviewing the epidemiology, and (most importantly) performing a thorough physical examination of his heart.
petermcculloughmd.substack.com
Read the substack from McCullough. HS and younger kids would be at much greater risk than a 24 year old.
It is my understanding they go through very extensive physicals prior officially becoming a player. I believe there have been players that did not make it through the exam due to previously undetected cardiovascular issues.
I’d think so. If I’m about to pay some dude 7-8 figures a year I’m spending the 3 to 4 figures for an ekg and echo and blood work.
I just don’t know from any experience.
When your investing potential $millions in a player…they are given extensive work ups.
What Does It Take to Fail an NFL Physical?
The NFL physical is grueling, but it helps teams get an accurate depiction of the players they're recruiting. So what does it take to fail?
www.sportscasting.com
Yes nfl players get full work ups ekgs for sure I’m not 100% on echos
Cool it’s an article by someone else with a statement about including myocarditis in the differential diagnosis, something that has frequently been included on commotio cordis cases. When we had to do our case studies in undergrad we had to include it as a differential and that was before Covid vaccine. He states things that have already been brought up here and that’s the rarity of commotio especially in football. That doesn’t mean it can’t happen. You should be discussing the former jaguars player that died at 38 the other day.Don’t take my word for it, read what the most published cardiologist in the world has to say about it:
Interpreting Damar Hamlin's Sudden Collapse
Watching the tape, reviewing the epidemiology, and (most importantly) performing a thorough physical examination of his heart.
I’ll put my two cents in.
I believe it was a commotio CORDIS injury based on vf arrest after blunt force. It makes sense. It would be astoundingly rare but we have seen it. It could have been several things from a pe to an mi to even as such an arrhythmia from something congenital such as hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. We also don’t even know what supplements he has been taking to increase his risk for a vfib arrest.
Time and tests will show an answer maybe. I’m sure he’s already had an echo of his heart as well as ct scan to check for pe.
Also mentioned above was the fact he had pulmonary contusion. That is more likely due to cpr to the chest than anything. The fact he’s down to 50%o2 is not reassuring as this was likely a cardiac issue. Once the pulse returns, his supplemental oxygen need will commonly decrease.
I am very worried about long term brain function.
For every minute without a pulse the chance of returning to full brain function decreases by 10%. After the 6-8 minutes of arrest he apparently had, that likelihood is very low.
High quality cpr by trained professionals hopefully will give him a fighting chance.
Horrible horrific situation that breaks my heart. I wonder how long it took to shock him.
I believe it was a commotio CORDIS injury based on vf arrest after blunt force. It makes sense. It would be astoundingly rare but we have seen it. It could have been several things from a pe to an mi to even as such an arrhythmia from something congenital such as hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. We also don’t even know what supplements he has been taking to increase his risk for a vfib arrest.
Time and tests will show an answer maybe. I’m sure he’s already had an echo of his heart as well as ct scan to check for pe.
Also mentioned above was the fact he had pulmonary contusion. That is more likely due to cpr to the chest than anything. The fact he’s down to 50%o2 is not reassuring as this was likely a cardiac issue. Once the pulse returns, his supplemental oxygen need will commonly decrease.
I am very worried about long term brain function.
For every minute without a pulse the chance of returning to full brain function decreases by 10%. After the 6-8 minutes of arrest he apparently had, that likelihood is very low.
High quality cpr by trained professionals hopefully will give him a fighting chance.
Horrible horrific situation that breaks my heart. I wonder how long it took to shock him.
I don't think anyone here said it can't happen. Most like myself took issue with you saying with certainty it was the most likely cause.
Yea, we know it couldn't be anything else...
A Google search of the words “football player commotio cordis” between the years 1970 and 2022 yielded ONE 2011 report of a junior varsity football player in Massachusetts who suffered from commotio cordis.
Meanwhile we know it also has to be the leading cause of all of these futbol deaths, wouldn't you agree???
"Results A total of 617 players (mean age 34±16 years, 96% men) with sudden death were reported from 67 countries; 142 players (23%) survived. A diagnosis by autopsy or definite medical reports was established in 211 cases (34%). The leading cause in players >35 years was coronary artery disease (76%) and in players ≤35 years was sudden unexplained death (SUD, 22%). In players ≤35 years the leading cause of SCD varied by region: cardiomyopathy in South America (42%), coronary artery anomaly in North America (33%) and SUD in Europe (26%). Traumatic sudden death including commotio cordis occurred infrequently (6%). Cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) resulted in a survival rate of 85% with the use of an automated external defibrillator (AED) compared with 35% without."
So, I’ve learned everything I know about this in the last 24 hours.
But, I’m not sure if I’m putting my money on Commotio.
It’s just SO RARE in football, period. Then add in his age which reduces the risk even more.
This is just, for all intents and purposes, not something that happens in American football in a given year. Then for it to occur on Monday Night Football? Out of all the middle schools and high schools and colleges in the country? The odds are unfathomable.
Now, all that said, could this be commotio corditis? Other than what I said above, I don’t see any reason why not I suppose. But to say it is the MOST LIKELY cause, more likely than some underlying condition that got exposed ?
Not sure I agree with the logic.
Also, those of you in the know. Does fact he crashed and had to be resuscitated a second time at the hospital add anything to the commotio corditis speculation? Either for or against?
But, I’m not sure if I’m putting my money on Commotio.
It’s just SO RARE in football, period. Then add in his age which reduces the risk even more.
This is just, for all intents and purposes, not something that happens in American football in a given year. Then for it to occur on Monday Night Football? Out of all the middle schools and high schools and colleges in the country? The odds are unfathomable.
Now, all that said, could this be commotio corditis? Other than what I said above, I don’t see any reason why not I suppose. But to say it is the MOST LIKELY cause, more likely than some underlying condition that got exposed ?
Not sure I agree with the logic.
Also, those of you in the know. Does fact he crashed and had to be resuscitated a second time at the hospital add anything to the commotio corditis speculation? Either for or against?
If true (he arrested again in hospital) that doesn’t seem good. Hope this dude pulls through.
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