Ruh-Roh: NCAA Lawsuit

[JudgeDD]

Are the football players at Marshall really making them money? I bet it would be interesting if someone really ran the true numbers of what the bottom line would be.

I'm not sure how much money "Marshall" is making. But what I'm suggesting is Marshall football does provide income for a lot of people. From Doc's $800k to my older son's more modest contract as an assistant strength coach to my younger son's girlfriend who works for IMG to the popcorn vendor. Many programs don't necessarily make money, but they all make money for a bunch of other people. Again, I'm not in favor of huge money. But I am very much in favor of putting a little more money in the players hands, as opposed to just providing income for those surrounding the program.

 

[IslandHerd1]

I'm not sure how much money "Marshall" is making. But what I'm suggesting is Marshall football does provide income for a lot of people. From Doc's $800k to my older son's more modest contract as an assistant strength coach to my younger son's girlfriend who works for IMG to the popcorn vendor. Many programs don't necessarily make money, but they all make money for a bunch of other people. Again, I'm not in favor of huge money. But I am very much in favor of putting a little more money in the players hands, as opposed to just providing income for those surrounding the program.

What repercussions come into play when a player uses the stipend money to buy pot, or drink underage or go to the strip club...

What about the kids who break the “contract” and leave early or do something that makes hem ineligible to play any longer?

 

[JudgeDD]

What repercussions come into play when a player uses the stipend money to buy pot, or drink underage or go to the strip club...

What about the kids who break the “contract” and leave early or do something that makes hem ineligible to play any longer?

No new ground here. My son is given money now by Marshall athletics as part of his Cost of Attendance. His "Town Check" is roughly $2,000 a year, which Jordan could use to buy pot, drink underage (a couple years ago), or go to the strip club. There would be nothing to stop him from leaving early, just as Litton did last year with a season of eligibility left. The same with doing something that makes him ineligible. The scholarship can be revoked if my son does something that would declare him ineligible. Nothing would be different than it is now.

I'm simply in favor of raising the check from the $2-6k schools are now awarding, to maybe $12-15k. And making the number the same for any school that wishes to pay it. Currently, schools offer very different numbers when it comes to Cost of Attendance. I would like to see that number standardized and capped.

 

[JudgeDD]

I like the idea of paying college athletes, especially football players. But I don't support making them rich. As we all know, we are already paying them. It starts with free school, and continues with things like gear, food, medical care, tutoring, bowl gifts. We also pay scholarship athletes money. The cost-of attendance stipend ranges from about $1,500 to just over $6,000. I would just like to see that number increased and standardized. $12-15,000 a year. Pay it if you can or if you choose, but you can't exceed whatever the agreed limit becomes.

@MStap mentioned in the previous post a word about the vast majority of college athletes. Like my sons, most of them are not going on to play in the League. The latest numbers suggest that less than 6% of D1 athletes make an NFL roster, and the average length of an NFL career is 3.3 years. So, only a very small few will continue on to make a living playing football.

But this huge majority of athletes that will play only in college is helping make college football a lucrative business for many thousands of people. From grounds keepers to SIDs to Color Commentators to Multi-millionaire Head Coaches. And the risk these football players assume is no less than that of the future NFL stars. Football is a dangerous game. Jordan Dowrey had back surgery before he turned twenty. He still has issues he plays through every day. He will likely have another surgery before he turns thirty. He is not unique. As a matter of fact, his is pretty typical of a college football player's career.

It's like this for me: Is an actor worth $20 million for a single film? Is a boxer worth $50 million for a single fight? Quite simply, no. Hard to justify. Until you look at the money that film or fight will bring in. The bigger question becomes what percentage of the money does the actor deserve? College football is a multi-billion dollar business. Tons of people are making a living off it, and plenty of people are getting rich because of it. It was different before, when college sports were played for a scholarship and pride in your school. While those things still exist, so do football staffs that make in excess of $10 million a year.

 

[Bankerreturns]

Yes, a lot of people make money from working for the football program and athletics in general. To pay all those people the university has to kick in funds, with Marshall it's about 45% of the total. Also, every student is charged a fee to help fund the costs.

I would argue that Doc Holliday is really the only person in the Marshall AD that makes a killing off of his job, but is not highly paid relative to his peers.

subsidy percentage by non P5 conferences:

AAC - 30-50%
CUSA - 37-71%
MAC - 62-74%
MWC - 26-52%
Sunbelt - 32-83%

So, from a G5 perspective, the football players aren't generating the money to pay all those people. They are generating money to pay for their equipment, facilities, travel, and part or, in some cases, all of their schooling. The schools are paying the employees.

If you want to argue that your son that played for Penn State made the school money, I would agree with you 100%. The P5 schools would have no trouble paying players, they look for things to waste money on. It's why Ohio State has over 500 employees in the athletic department while Marshall gets by with half that number. It's why they fly charter to everything while Marshall still takes bus rides.

So can Marshall afford another $800,000 to pay football players $15,000 a year? They would come up with it by cutting something else, I would guess. My question is how do you pay football players but not the other student athletes? How do you get aroind Title IX? If you have to pay all athletes you are now looking at around $3MM more per year. That, Marshall can't do.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

No new ground here. My son is given money now by Marshall athletics as part of his Cost of Attendance. His "Town Check" is roughly $2,000 a year, which Jordan could use to buy pot, drink underage (a couple years ago), or go to the strip club. There would be nothing to stop him from leaving early, just as Litton did last year with a season of eligibility left. The same with doing something that makes him ineligible. The scholarship can be revoked if my son does something that would declare him ineligible. Nothing would be different than it is now.

I'm simply in favor of raising the check from the $2-6k schools are now awarding, to maybe $12-15k. And making the number the same for any school that wishes to pay it. Currently, schools offer very different numbers when it comes to Cost of Attendance. I would like to see that number standardized and capped.

But if schools do that, shouldn't there be more checks and balances in place? The athlete essentially becomes an employee of the university. If the pay is higher, then maybe they should pay more for books, or food, or work around the school in the off season (I know they have very little free time).
But they can't have it both ways. Stay the course and enjoy what they get; or be paid more money have more strings attached to it. It all comes down to the choices they make.

 

[JudgeDD]

But if schools do that, shouldn't there be more checks and balances in place? The athlete essentially becomes an employee of the university. If the pay is higher, then maybe they should pay more for books, or food, or work around the school in the off season (I know they have very little free time).
But they can't have it both ways. Stay the course and enjoy what they get; or be paid more money have more strings attached to it. It all comes down to the choices they make.

I disagree. Again, we are already paying our student athletes. Some suggest that we pay them like semi-pros in compensation for their likeness and such. I'm not of that school. I'm just saying $1000 - $1200 a month. Enough to pay rent, utilities, gas, food, and maybe a little left in their pocket. They shouldn't pay more for books. And they are already working for the school. Football, in season, demands about 40 hours of an athlete's time, and roughly 8-10 hours in the off-season. This is already on top of being a full-time student. Football is their part-time job.

 

[JudgeDD]

Yes, a lot of people make money from working for the football program and athletics in general. To pay all those people the university has to kick in funds, with Marshall it's about 45% of the total. Also, every student is charged a fee to help fund the costs.

I would argue that Doc Holliday is really the only person in the Marshall AD that makes a killing off of his job, but is not highly paid relative to his peers.

subsidy percentage by non P5 conferences:

AAC - 30-50%
CUSA - 37-71%
MAC - 62-74%
MWC - 26-52%
Sunbelt - 32-83%

So, from a G5 perspective, the football players aren't generating the money to pay all those people. They are generating money to pay for their equipment, facilities, travel, and part or, in some cases, all of their schooling. The schools are paying the employees.

If you want to argue that your son that played for Penn State made the school money, I would agree with you 100%. The P5 schools would have no trouble paying players, they look for things to waste money on. It's why Ohio State has over 500 employees in the athletic department while Marshall gets by with half that number. It's why they fly charter to everything while Marshall still takes bus rides.

So can Marshall afford another $800,000 to pay football players $15,000 a year? They would come up with it by cutting something else, I would guess. My question is how do you pay football players but not the other student athletes? How do you get aroind Title IX? If you have to pay all athletes you are now looking at around $3MM more per year. That, Marshall can't do.

Great post. And you're right that many programs will not be able to afford any increases in their expenditures. But my rebuttal is two-fold.

1) Programs spend way too much money at the top. It's like a business that pays it's CEO and 6 board members 50% of the revenue and splits the other 50% among their 200 workers. I'm not saying the top shouldn't get paid more. Just saying that we are exploiting the working class, and to an extent, exploiting our D1 athletes.

2) I quickly grazed over this in an earlier post because I knew it would be controversial. I said that schools would either participate in paying their athletes or not. Some may chose not to for some of the reasons stated in this thread. Others my just not have the resources. Would this further separate the P5 from the G5? The top programs from the middle and lower programs? Yes. But not much more than they are already separated. Over 90% of the G5 is out of consideration for the CFP before the season even begins. The G5 isn't effectively recruiting the same athletes that the top P5 programs are, and if Marshall wasn't able to pay their athletes it really wouldn't affect the level of recruiting. The P5 and G5 are in different leagues already, we just pretend that we're all D1.

Now, if a G5 was able to find the resources to pay their athletes, then that could make a difference. It still wouldn't put them on a level playing field with the big boys, but it could put some space between them and the rest of the P5.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

I disagree. Again, we are already paying our student athletes. Some suggest that we pay them like semi-pros in compensation for their likeness and such. I'm not of that school. I'm just saying $1000 - $1200 a month. Enough to pay rent, utilities, gas, food, and maybe a little left in their pocket. They shouldn't pay more for books. And they are already working for the school. Football, in season, demands about 40 hours of an athlete's time, and roughly 8-10 hours in the off-season. This is already on top of being a full-time student. Football is their part-time job.

But knowing what you know; could Marshall afford to pay any elevated amount and try to keep up with the Jones's? Not sure we could.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

I disagree. Again, we are already paying our student athletes. Some suggest that we pay them like semi-pros in compensation for their likeness and such. I'm not of that school. I'm just saying $1000 - $1200 a month. Enough to pay rent, utilities, gas, food, and maybe a little left in their pocket. They shouldn't pay more for books. And they are already working for the school. Football, in season, demands about 40 hours of an athlete's time, and roughly 8-10 hours in the off-season. This is already on top of being a full-time student. Football is their part-time job.

I'm confused by what appear to be your conflicting statements

Players, depending on where in the country they go to school/cost of living, receive a monthly check that includes money for rent/utilities/food (assuming they live off-campus). Most schools do a good job to make sure the amount of those checks can cover those things, and most football players are getting 1-2 meals a day already provided by the team. On top of that, as you said, they are getting the additional check which start around $150/month and go up.

Are you wanting that $150+/month to now go up to $900+ per month?

 

[JudgeDD]

I'm confused by what appear to be your conflicting statements

Players, depending on where in the country they go to school/cost of living, receive a monthly check that includes money for rent/utilities/food (assuming they live off-campus). Most schools do a good job to make sure the amount of those checks can cover those things, and most football players are getting 1-2 meals a day already provided by the team. On top of that, as you said, they are getting the additional check which start around $150/month and go up.

Are you wanting that $150+/month to now go up to $900+ per month?

Yes.

Sorry. I did get a little off-track in a post there. I was definitely blending my thoughts.

I'll share what I know. Both Marshall and Penn State provide money to athletes who live off-campus as part of room and board. In addition, Marshall's Cost-of-Living check is currently about $200 a month. As of a couple years ago, Penn State's was just over $500 a month. I"m not sure if Marshall football players still get 80 meal tickets a semester, which is less than a meal a day. Penn State had training table every day and plenty of extra food if you needed it.

What I'm suggestion is in addition to the scholarship. $1000-1200 a month would be about twice what PSU is spending, and they can afford to do it. It would be five to six times what Marshall is currently spending and they probably couldn't find that without major donors or cutting Doc's pay.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

So you're proposing the full scholarship (which if living off-campus, means tuition, books, and a check each month which is enough for an apartment, utilities, and food) and a drastic increase in the cost of living stipend?

$1200 on top of all of that? A college kid could get a car and insurance for $400/month. $100/month for clothing, $50 for a cell phone, $50 for a tank of gas. An additional $200/month for even more food than what their "town check" (the scholarship check if off-campus) covers. That still leaves an extra $200-$400/month for anything else.

Sorry, but that's absurd. You're basically wanting to give a kid a $30,000+ annual salary (considering everything that is paid for with the scholarship check and your increased cost of living check) AND tuition and books on top of that.

 

[Herd In the Plains]

So you're proposing the full scholarship (which if living off-campus, means tuition, books, and a check each month which is enough for an apartment, utilities, and food) and a drastic increase in the cost of living stipend?

$1200 on top of all of that? A college kid could get a car and insurance for $400/month. $100/month for clothing, $50 for a cell phone, $50 for a tank of gas. An additional $200/month for even more food than what their "town check" (the scholarship check if off-campus) covers. That still leaves an extra $200-$400/month for anything else.

Sorry, but that's absurd. You're basically wanting to give a kid a $30,000+ annual salary (considering everything that is paid for with the scholarship check and your increased cost of living check) AND tuition and books on top of that.

When it gets much higher than it is now the IRS is going to come calling. It seems the stipend qualifys as earned income now.

 

[JudgeDD]

Sorry, but that's absurd. You're basically wanting to give a kid a $30,000+ annual salary (considering everything that is paid for with the scholarship check and your increased cost of living check) AND tuition and books on top of that.

Well, what you just posted sounds absurd. But let me re-frame what I suggested.

In addition to their current scholarship, I think a school like Marshall should be allowed to give a football player $1000 a month instead of the $200 they are currently giving him. A school like PSU, $1000 instead of $500. This is my suggestion in the face of those who would like to pay our college athletes like professionals.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

Marshall won't be able to pay that kind of money. jmo. What about the athletes from all the other sports? Especially mens B'ball. Where does it end?

 

[herdalicious]

Fun Fact: the term "Title IX" doesn't appear in this thread. Tell em Oprah!

"YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000...."

 

[mlblack16.]

Fun Fact: the term "Title IX" doesn't appear in this thread. Tell em Oprah!

"YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000 and YOU get $6,000...."

How do you get aroind Title IX?