The elephant in the room...Marshall basketball

[GK4Herd]

First, let me preface this with the plea to keep this thread in the spirit of discussion. I seldom (hardly ever) eliminate threads, but reserve the right on this one if it takes a bad turn. On Old Fairfield a very active discussion about the Marshall basketball team has been going for over a week. A poster finally called out the elephant in the room...this team is extremely white. Now...the poster made a very good and honest point...that people are automatically doubting the talent and athleticism level of this team because of the makeup.

I personally fell in the same mindset when I suggested that this team might be effective with zone defenses. The discussion was that we didn't have the players that could stop penetrating guards. The fear was also that we couldn't rebound effectively with our height. My assumption was that with zone defenses we could limit a lot of those issues with help defense and blocking out. Another poster (and a very knowledgeable basketball one) pointed out that I was making the assumption our players weren't athletic. He pointed out that Elmore and Browning were extremely athletic and would be fine in a man. So there I was falling into the trap of thinking that white means slow and unathletic.

So...the discussion. I could not be convinced that as a group white players are as athletic as blacks. They aren't and there is too much evidence before us to believe differently. But are we and coaches automatically guilty of downplaying the ability of good white players? Is there a reverse racism in society that hurts the opportunities of white players? I have to believe that there is something to this assertion.

Reggie Miller recently caused some debate when he said that a 30 year old Larry Bird was better than a 30 year old Lebron James. Skip Bayless immediately backed that assertion. This article compares the two and statistically you can't really seperate the them. Interesting article with stats and comparisons...

http://bostonsbigfour.com/2015/08/12/why-larry-bird-was-better-than-lebron/

In a perfect world we could look past the whole skin color thing, but society isn't over it yet. So maybe civil discussion is a good way to get past some of the sensitivity with this issue. I'm also looking forward to Fever's comments as well.

 

[extragreen]

I really don't care. I root for the Herd, they all wear green.

 

[GK4Herd]

I'm with you that EG.

 

[Raoul Duke MU]

I have seen white kids go DII because coaches overlooked them. I have seen black kids go DI that probably should not have. So perhaps there is something to that.

 

[i am herdman]

I moved down South from lilly white WV. Blacks as a group are far more athletic and better and basketball and football. Bar none, those are the facts. Yes there are exceptions to the rules but if I am wrong why are football and basketball rosters filled with more black athletes? I coached youth football and basketball, the black guys as a group were better.

If you are a white youth and unless you are an exception to the rule stick with baseball, lacrosse, wrestling, hockey, soccer, swimming and making good grades and getting a job. Especially the part of making good grades and getting a job.

The black guys mature faster than whites and are faster and strong at a younger age. It is true blacks don't like the water much.

Yes, Larry Bird was a freak, but for every Larry Bird there are 300 black basketball players that are better than the whites. Football is not even close, especially at skill positions.

 

[GK4Herd]

I agree Herdman, but I guess the question is are we downplaying those exceptional white players simply because they are white?

 

[i am herdman]

Probably. Rush Limbaugh got fired for saying Donovan McNabb was glorified

 

[SHAMMOND16]

I'm not sure I would call it the elephant in the room. It's about systems. What we're doing now plays to the strengths of our current players. The white kids you talk about are quicker than given credit for, but they are weak. They wouldnt look as good in a traditional style of play. You take a look at a guy like Steve Nash in the NBA as an example. He's plenty quick & fast enough to play in the NBA, but lacks strength & physicality. He's good enough to be a starter in the NBA, he's an All-Star level talent, but not an MVP type of player...however, in Dantoni's system, he was an MVP. Look at Steph Curry, who was criticized coming into the NBA as someone who wasn't athletic enough to compensate for being so weak. In the same type of system, he's an MVP. Jeremy Lin, didn't get a look,...and under Dantoni's system, he set the league on fire for half of a season in that system.


To try to make an analogy, look at Nebraska football. Back in the 80s & 90s, when they ran that option offense, they were able to recruit those mean & ugly, farm strength white guys from that area. They dominated college football and was more physical than everybody they played. We're they more talented? No, I don't think so. They were very slow. Their system made them great. Their system took advantage of their strengths & they had guys who played with a chip on their shoulder because they weren't highly recruited. When college football went to more of a passing style of football, players having to play out in space and speed kinda taking over, Nebraska isn't nearly as good. If Nebraska brought in that Georgia Tech head coach with an elite defensive coordinator, it would be interesting to see what they could do.

Basketball is changing. The rules are changing. You're no longer allowed to be physical with ball handlers. The quick & skilled, but weak white guards can now play with the physical black kids who grew up playing "no blood, no foul" basketball. That isn't basketball any more. The "Bad Boys" Detroit Pistons days are over with. It kinda is a good discussion though when it comes to culture. The white kids work on ball handling & shooting when you put them in a gym. The black kids work on ball handling, playing physical, & dunking. The game of basketball is going away from that. The white kids, who's lack of physicality is mistaken for lack of athleticism, have a place in today's basketball.

 

[GK4Herd]

Excellent post Shammond.

 

[GK4Herd]

Where's Fever by the way?

 

[extragreen]

Where's Fever by the way?

He's been playing Larry Bird one on one.....so he'll be able to answer your question.

 

[herdfan429]

Where's Fever by the way?

Feeding the homeless in a soup kitchen

 

[31Herd55]

Black kids are better playing with a basketball, while white kids are better playing with an X-Box.

To some extent, we are all products of our environments...go figure !!!

 

[31Herd55]

And, if any of you big-time racists don't want to go to The Cam and cheer for the Kelly Green Herdsmen, just go to the library and watch some English Major write an essay...bring on The Herd, I'll be there...and, yes, I'm a snowflake.

 

[SHAMMOND16]

Black kids are better playing with a basketball, while white kids are better playing with an X-Box.

To some extent, we are all products of our environments...go figure !!!

This is very true too.

I've always thought that the mostly white middle class produce lazy, comfortable, non-combative kids who can't be athletic because their environment doesn't allow them to be. That trickles down the gene pool a few generations and you see a race of people who are vastly under athletic.

 

[31Herd55]

Well played, Sham. I'm blaming my watered down gene pool...Momma couldn't dunk!!!

 

[herdfan429]

Black kids are better playing with a basketball, while white kids are better playing with an X-Box.

To some extent, we are all products of our environments...go figure !!!

Disagree completely. The black kids I work with dominate the white kids on Xbox too

 

[31Herd55]

Maybe white kids are better at watching tv?

 

[GK4Herd]

Many scientist point to an evolutionary basis in the black superiority thing in athletics. They refer to genotype differences and can even differentiate between different parts of Africa that generate different types of athletes; sprinters, distance runner, etc. The problem is we're afraid to discuss this because the insinuation in proclaiming that superiority according to many blacks is that the black athlete don't work as hard or is less intelligent.

There's a book that addresses this very subject called TABOO: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We Are Afraid to Talk About It.

Here is a link to the book review by a NY Times science writer....


https://www.nytimes.com/books/00/04/16/reviews/000416.16holtlt.html

 

[i am herdman]

I have a young kid that just finished high school.

1)Black kids are good at Xbox. That rules that out and so are the Mexicans.
2)Blacks are the better football players, in particular at the skill positions. They are faster for the most part.
3)There are black nerds, plenty of them. Plenty of blacks in the band as well.
4)There was not one white kid on his high school's basketball team for the last two or three seasons.
5)More whites play baseball.
6)Black people can get sunburned.
7)Black people are afraid of crazy whites. That is true. They will tell you that.
8)Black women have a natural affection towards me. I can't explain it.
9)Blacks and Mexicans typically do not get along well.
10)There is a reason there are so many blacks in the NFl and NBA.

 

[i am herdman]

Many scientist point to an evolutionary basis in the black superiority thing in athletics. They refer to genotype differences and can even differentiate between different parts of Africa that generate different types of athletes; sprinters, distance runner, etc. The problem is we're afraid to discuss this because the insinuation in proclaiming that superiority according to many blacks is that the black athlete don't work as hard or is less intelligent.

There's a book that addresses this very subject called TABOO: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We Are Afraid to Talk About It.

Here is a link to the book review by a NY Times science writer....


https://www.nytimes.com/books/00/04/16/reviews/000416.16holtlt.html

Let's cut to the chase here. This is not going to be politically correct

In American sport the blacks are dominant in part because they were bred. So it is genetics. I can't explain it. I have seen it and coached it first hand. IT is what it is. They were bred during the slavery times. They took strong big blacks and bred them with strong big blacks. Look at the SEC

first day of football you line up and time the kids running. Damn, there is a fast white guy or two. Good god, look at that kid fly right there. Black guy...running back.

Son, you can try all you want...the black man is better at football and basketball. Some things are what they are.

 

[31Herd55]

Well, Oh Yeah, Herdman...I say we white kids are better at watching the grass grow AND watching paint dry.

You do know The Watchman is a white dude.

 

[i am herdman]

Well, Oh Yeah, Herdman...I say we white kids are better at watching the grass grow AND watching paint dry.

You do know The Watchman is a white dude.

I don't disagree with you necessarily. I will say that whites for the most part put more of an emphasis on education, jobs, career focus, and are more driven in that arena.

Too much of the black culture is caught around you have to be "black" and not an Uncle Tom.

It would be like all of us remaining hillbilly or redneck to remain close to our roots and not get above our raisin. That happens in small towns and in Applacahia but not as much.

 

[31Herd55]

I love this discussion...we all forgot to recognize that the elephant that we all speak of ia a WHITE elephant.

And, your best elephants are seldom white.

 

[ThunderCat98]

Besides qbs, I hate white skill players in professional football. There. I said it.

White running backs, wideouts, and corners - absolutely hate them. I suppose I'm racist in that regard.

I'm also not a fan of white shooting guards in basketball.

 

[GK4Herd]

Let's cut to the chase here. This is not going to be politically correct

In American sport the blacks are dominant in part because they were bred. So it is genetics. I can't explain it. I have seen it and coached it first hand. IT is what it is. They were bred during the slavery times. They took strong big blacks and bred them with strong big blacks. Look at the SEC

first day of football you line up and time the kids running. Damn, there is a fast white guy or two. Good god, look at that kid fly right there. Black guy...running back.

Son, you can try all you want...the black man is better at football and basketball. Some things are what they are.

Artificial selection. Interesting...until you consider that Africans (not African Americans) literally dominate the world runners at almost every distance above 400 meters. Slaves were picked because they lost at wars in Africa, not due to their genetics for size, strength, and speed. And when you consider the slave owners penchant for ...uh...injecting their own dna line into slaves you can remove the artificial selection from the equation. But there are some studies that show there might be some truth to artificial selection, but not to the degree most think. Natural selection is what scientist have implied. There is evidence to support that.

 

[flairforherd]

Not to change the topic or inject race into anything, but I have also seen plenty of gifted athletes, at MU and elsewhere, who didn't really understand how to play basketball, and lacked fundamental skills. But they could run and jump. Just saying.

 

[SHAMMOND16]

Not to change the topic or inject race into anything, but I have also seen plenty of gifted athletes, at MU and elsewhere, who didn't really understand how to play basketball, and lacked fundamental skills. But they could run and jump. Just saying.

That's the elephant in the room.

People see a 6'7 kid who can jump out of the gym, but can't shoot a basketball to save his life or understand how the game is played. Doesn't understand ball movement, screening to open up a shooter, boxing out, help side defense, communicating on defense, etc....and people think he's a basketball player.

 

[31Herd55]

Trudat, Flair... But jumping (think rebounding & shot blocking) and running (think fast-breaks & getting back on defense) will always be parts of the game)

 

[i am herdman]

That's the elephant in the room.

People see a 6'7 kid who can jump out of the gym, but can't shoot a basketball to save his life or understand how the game is played. Doesn't understand ball movement, screening to open up a shooter, boxing out, help side defense, communicating on defense, etc....and people think he's a basketball player.

He could be with proper training and development. I think that is the point.

Football is perhaps the most easiest for a naturally strong athlete to get competitive quickly. you get a big stong guy who can run and you can get him to adapt to football pretty quickly.

Baseball and basketball not so much. You have to learn that skill.

 

[i am herdman]

I had a guy tell me one time the reason whites are more succesful in business and adaptation is because they come from an environment(Europe,etc.) that had seasonal changes. If you didn't adapt quickly and plan and use your brain to survive then you literally freeze your ass off come winter. You have to learn to survive the elements. Warm weather climates stay fairly constant. Example, build a mud hut and you are good. European example, build a mud hut and don't gather firewood or food and proper clothing and you die.

 

[Herd Fever]

Ill say this

A team of white shooters, that play unselfish, and have high Basketball IQ will beat a super Athletic but poorly Offensively develop, selfish Black basketball team.

Football its not close, Football is God in the black community because it offers more opputunity than basketball. Plays all the pain and hurt in the black community can be taken out on the football field and not get arrested.

 

[i am herdman]

Ill say this

A team of white shooters, that play unselfish, and have high Basketball IQ will beat a super Athletic but poorly Offensively develop, selfish Black basketball team.

Football its not close, Football is God in the black community because it offers more opputunity than basketball. Plays all the pain and hurt in the black community can be taken out on the football field and not get arrested.

I agree about football. Except I really like a white center on my line.

I am joking fever so don't get mad.

 

[31Herd55]

Good shooters have their role and good jumpers have their role...I simply could never coach a hot-shooting white kid to be a 6' 7" rebounder.

 

[31Herd55]

What do you call an entirely white-kid football team at the end of the game?...The Losers

 

[raleighherdfan]

A team of white shooters, that play unselfish, and have high Basketball IQ will beat a super Athletic but poorly Offensively develop, selfish Black basketball team.

No better metaphor on the current state of racial affairs and overall poor economic outcomes for minorities could be used. Remember this the next time you attempt to lay complete blame on exogenous circumstances of those communities.

 

[Herd Fever]

The thing with football is this. We are already physically more developed then white people. Football not basketball is engrained in us as the sport of passage to become a man.

Then you take someone who is already angry for numerous reason(No father, No Mother, poor, type of neighborhood living in) naturally strong and fast. Throw some pads on them and tell them you can hit anyone as hard as possible and not get in trouble.

 

[Herd Fever]

No better metaphor on the current state of racial affairs and overall poor economic outcomes for minorities could be used. Remember this the next time you attempt to lay complete blame on exogenous circumstances of those communities.

What does economic outcomes have to do with anything here??? Stay on topic, atleast Herdman has been able too

 

[i am herdman]

The thing with football is this. We are already physically more developed then white people. Football not basketball is engrained in us as the sport of passage to become a man.

Then you take someone who is already angry for numerous reason(No father, No Mother, poor, type of neighborhood living in) naturally strong and fast. Throw some pads on them and tell them you can hit anyone as hard as possible and not get in trouble.

I actually agree with you to a large extent.

These folks in WV have no idea about blacks and football.

It is a black man's game for the most part.

 

[ThunderCat98]

Ill say this

A team of white shooters, that play unselfish, and have high Basketball IQ will beat a super Athletic but poorly Offensively develop, selfish Black basketball team.

Not even true. If it were, Tom Crean's shitty teams would be competitive.