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The war is not yet over, but Ukraine has already lost

i am herdman

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Mar 5, 2006
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The western media is lying and not telling the full story.



-------------------

The war is not over yet, but the outcome is already clear. Ukraine has lost.

It pains me to say this, of course. Ukraine has fought a just war against an unjust – even barbaric – aggressor. And the country has fought well. Indeed, not only have the Ukrainians put up a better defensive fight than was generally expected in the run-up to the war, but they have taken the fight to the enemy, even pushing the Russians back on several fronts.

But Ukraine has lost the war nonetheless.

Why do I say this? Because, at the end of the day, Russia will have imposed its will on Ukraine while Ukraine will have achieved almost none of the goals – other than survival – it is pursuing on the battlefield and at the negotiating table.

That Russia will end up imposing its will on Ukraine now seems beyond reasonable doubt. Despite suffering terrible casualties and embarrassing battlefield setbacks, Moscow has already forced Kyiv to concede that NATO membership, and probably European Union (EU) membership too, is a non-starter. The separatist enclaves in Donetsk and Luhansk are in no danger of reverting to Ukrainian control, and the only question in the south of the country is how much territory will be added to the Crimean lands pried from Kyiv’s control in 2014.

Ukraine, on the other hand, will likely achieve almost none of its goals. To be sure, Ukraine will continue to inflict losses on the Russian forces, preventing them from taking Kyiv and other major cities and pushing them back here and there in successful, if limited, counter-offensives. But Kyiv will not achieve its operational-level objectives of expelling the Russians from all the territory it has lost since Feb. 24. It will not win a decisive battlefield victory that will vanquish once and for all the Russian invaders.

Mounting a spirited and capable defense is one thing; launching a major operational offensive is another. Ukraine has demonstrated that it can do the former, but there is no indication that it can launch and sustain the type of major combined-arms offensives required to drive the Russians out of those parts of occupied Ukraine that Moscow is really committed to holding.

Nor will Ukraine realize its main strategic objectives – the diplomatic-political goals it has been pursuing in fits and starts since the early-2000s but in earnest and consistently since 2014 – either on the battlefield or at the negotiating table. Not only will Ukraine not recover all the territory lost during the war; it will not re-establish sovereignty over territory lost in 2014. Nor will it definitively break with Russia and decisively accede to the West, either through NATO membership or association with the European Union.

None of this is going to happen. Russia is not willing to concede any of this. And as has already been amply demonstrated, Moscow gets a vote on Ukraine’s future. NATO leaders are not interested in this happening, fearing that if Russian President Vladimir Putin faces decisive defeat – that is, the realization of Ukraine’s main strategic goals – he might play the nuclear card in a final desperate bid to stave off disaster both for him and his country. And Ukraine’s president has already conceded that some form of neutrality is likely to be his country’s future, conceding one of Kyiv’s main strategic objectives.

To be sure, this doesn’t mean that the fighting will stop tomorrow. Getting to the inevitable outcome – which, to reiterate, will be a strategic defeat for Kyiv and a partial (and pyrrhic) victory for Russia – will take some time, and much additional bloodshed, yet. It is in the nature of such conflicts, however, that once a mutually hurting stalemate sets in, both sides will be forced to make difficult concessions, first in the service of agreeing a ceasefire and later, perhaps much later, in the service of a more permanent negotiated settlement.

But such a stalemate is already in sight, even if at the moment both sides continue to cling to the delusion that just one more push and victory will be theirs. The fighting will eventually end, or at least return to pre-war levels.

The hard part to swallow is that between now and then many more people will die, additional destruction will be wrought upon the land and lives of the people of Ukraine, more war-crimes will be perpetrated and much more suffering inflicted and endured — and all for nought. Perpetuating the fighting will yield few, if any, gains for either side. It may be the inescapable logic of such conflicts that they end in this way, pointlessly dragging in the pursuit of victory but at the inevitable expense of innocent people. But it is a bitter pill — one that’s very hard to swallow.

But here’s the truly bitter truth: In broad brush strokes at least, the most-likely post-war settlement is pretty much the same as the settlement that was on offer before the bloodletting began in earnest on Feb. 24. While Putin was the one who pulled the trigger that fateful day, and thus bears full moral responsibility for all that has happened since, there are many others who could have made different choices in the run-up to the war. Different choices could have resulted in a pre-war settlement that would have been almost indistinguishable from the most likely post-war settlement, minus only the untold death and destruction visited on Ukraine these past weeks and months. In that sense, and only in that limited sense, there’s plenty of blame to go around.

It’s perhaps best left to history to definitively sort out precisely who made what decisions that led us needlessly down the historical path to war. And maybe it’s always the case that belligerents must batter themselves senseless before they come to their senses.

But one thing is already crystal clear: While the war is not yet over, Ukraine has lost. Grasping that, we must first bring the fighting quickly to an end. Then we must mourn the dead. And, finally, we must get on with the task of rebuilding the country that Vladimir Putin has destroyed.
 
The western media is lying and not telling the full story.



-------------------

The war is not over yet, but the outcome is already clear. Ukraine has lost.

It pains me to say this, of course. Ukraine has fought a just war against an unjust – even barbaric – aggressor. And the country has fought well. Indeed, not only have the Ukrainians put up a better defensive fight than was generally expected in the run-up to the war, but they have taken the fight to the enemy, even pushing the Russians back on several fronts.

But Ukraine has lost the war nonetheless.

Why do I say this? Because, at the end of the day, Russia will have imposed its will on Ukraine while Ukraine will have achieved almost none of the goals – other than survival – it is pursuing on the battlefield and at the negotiating table.

That Russia will end up imposing its will on Ukraine now seems beyond reasonable doubt. Despite suffering terrible casualties and embarrassing battlefield setbacks, Moscow has already forced Kyiv to concede that NATO membership, and probably European Union (EU) membership too, is a non-starter. The separatist enclaves in Donetsk and Luhansk are in no danger of reverting to Ukrainian control, and the only question in the south of the country is how much territory will be added to the Crimean lands pried from Kyiv’s control in 2014.

Ukraine, on the other hand, will likely achieve almost none of its goals. To be sure, Ukraine will continue to inflict losses on the Russian forces, preventing them from taking Kyiv and other major cities and pushing them back here and there in successful, if limited, counter-offensives. But Kyiv will not achieve its operational-level objectives of expelling the Russians from all the territory it has lost since Feb. 24. It will not win a decisive battlefield victory that will vanquish once and for all the Russian invaders.

Mounting a spirited and capable defense is one thing; launching a major operational offensive is another. Ukraine has demonstrated that it can do the former, but there is no indication that it can launch and sustain the type of major combined-arms offensives required to drive the Russians out of those parts of occupied Ukraine that Moscow is really committed to holding.

Nor will Ukraine realize its main strategic objectives – the diplomatic-political goals it has been pursuing in fits and starts since the early-2000s but in earnest and consistently since 2014 – either on the battlefield or at the negotiating table. Not only will Ukraine not recover all the territory lost during the war; it will not re-establish sovereignty over territory lost in 2014. Nor will it definitively break with Russia and decisively accede to the West, either through NATO membership or association with the European Union.

None of this is going to happen. Russia is not willing to concede any of this. And as has already been amply demonstrated, Moscow gets a vote on Ukraine’s future. NATO leaders are not interested in this happening, fearing that if Russian President Vladimir Putin faces decisive defeat – that is, the realization of Ukraine’s main strategic goals – he might play the nuclear card in a final desperate bid to stave off disaster both for him and his country. And Ukraine’s president has already conceded that some form of neutrality is likely to be his country’s future, conceding one of Kyiv’s main strategic objectives.

To be sure, this doesn’t mean that the fighting will stop tomorrow. Getting to the inevitable outcome – which, to reiterate, will be a strategic defeat for Kyiv and a partial (and pyrrhic) victory for Russia – will take some time, and much additional bloodshed, yet. It is in the nature of such conflicts, however, that once a mutually hurting stalemate sets in, both sides will be forced to make difficult concessions, first in the service of agreeing a ceasefire and later, perhaps much later, in the service of a more permanent negotiated settlement.

But such a stalemate is already in sight, even if at the moment both sides continue to cling to the delusion that just one more push and victory will be theirs. The fighting will eventually end, or at least return to pre-war levels.

The hard part to swallow is that between now and then many more people will die, additional destruction will be wrought upon the land and lives of the people of Ukraine, more war-crimes will be perpetrated and much more suffering inflicted and endured — and all for nought. Perpetuating the fighting will yield few, if any, gains for either side. It may be the inescapable logic of such conflicts that they end in this way, pointlessly dragging in the pursuit of victory but at the inevitable expense of innocent people. But it is a bitter pill — one that’s very hard to swallow.

But here’s the truly bitter truth: In broad brush strokes at least, the most-likely post-war settlement is pretty much the same as the settlement that was on offer before the bloodletting began in earnest on Feb. 24. While Putin was the one who pulled the trigger that fateful day, and thus bears full moral responsibility for all that has happened since, there are many others who could have made different choices in the run-up to the war. Different choices could have resulted in a pre-war settlement that would have been almost indistinguishable from the most likely post-war settlement, minus only the untold death and destruction visited on Ukraine these past weeks and months. In that sense, and only in that limited sense, there’s plenty of blame to go around.

It’s perhaps best left to history to definitively sort out precisely who made what decisions that led us needlessly down the historical path to war. And maybe it’s always the case that belligerents must batter themselves senseless before they come to their senses.

But one thing is already crystal clear: While the war is not yet over, Ukraine has lost. Grasping that, we must first bring the fighting quickly to an end. Then we must mourn the dead. And, finally, we must get on with the task of rebuilding the country that Vladimir Putin has destroyed.
This one mans opinion and besides Putin will be dead within 3 months and new leadership will surely take a different course.
 
This one mans opinion and besides Putin will be dead within 3 months and new leadership will surely take a different course.
Great. You might get a morhardliners.

Meanwhile the US government pumps money in there ans who is getting rich and covering up stuff?
 
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^^^^oath breaker supports the overturning of a free and fair election in the U S. You certainly can't count on him to support other democracies.
 
The western media is lying and not telling the full story.
Which would mean Fox lies, because that is all you watch.

I can't speak for all the media, but the NYT has been pretty clear that Ukraine is fvcked even if they "win".
Meanwhile the US government pumps money in there ans who is getting rich and covering up stuff?
Not everything is a conspiracy. Military shit is expensive....thus why we have crappy infrastructure.
 
Which would mean Fox lies, because that is all you watch.

I can't speak for all the media, but the NYT has been pretty clear that Ukraine is fvcked even if they "win".

Not everything is a conspiracy. Military shit is expensive....thus why we have crappy infrastructure.
I read cnn regularly and watch them among others.

Follow the money. What was Joe's boy doing over there? And some Republicans too.

We sent 40 billion over there and can't have card readers on schools doors. Hell the Hampton Inn had doors that close and lock automatically.
 

Russia takes half of key city as EU split on gas imports​


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Updates from BBC correspondents: Joe Inwood, James Waterhouse and Abdujalil Abdurasulov in Kyiv, Laura Bicker and Hugo Bachega in Zaporizhzhia, Jeremy Bowen in Donbas, and Steve Rosenberg in Moscow
 

Ship leaves Mariupol port heading for Russia for the first time since Moscow troops took the city​

From CNN's Julia Presniakova and Bex Wright

A ship has left the southern Ukrainian port of Mariupol, the first to depart since Russia took the city, according to the leader of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, who was speaking on behalf of the Russian authorities.
The RM-3 vessel carrying "2,500 tons of hot-rolled sheets" is headed for Rostov in western Russia, Denis Pushilin said on his Telegram channel.
Separately, an update from the press service of the People's Militia Department of the Donetsk People's Republic said the ship was loaded under the protection of special forces and the Russian navy.
Ukraine has repeatedly accused Russia of looting products such as grain and metal from the country.
 
Which would mean Fox lies, because that is all you watch.

I can't speak for all the media, but the NYT has been pretty clear that Ukraine is fvcked even if they "win".

Not everything is a conspiracy. Military shit is expensive....thus why we have crappy infrastructure.
We have crappy infrastructure because the Republicans always vote against it and dont say the Democrats have control of the Senate because Manchin and Senema are really Republicans and vote with the Republicans on most everything.
 
We have crappy infrastructure because the Republicans always vote against it and dont say the Democrats have control of the Senate because Manchin and Senema are really Republicans and vote with the Republicans on most everything.
laugh-nicholson.gif
 
We have crappy infrastructure because the Republicans always vote against it and dont say the Democrats have control of the Senate because Manchin and Senema are really Republicans and vote with the Republicans on most everything.
Yehh and when Democrats label bills as "infastructure" bills and there is not much infastructure in it has nothing to do with it.

Bail out blue states recently.
 
You follow it, you are the one saying it's crooked.

Doesn't matter, he ain't there now. Along with six million people who fled.

I guess Texas Republicans don't give a shit about school safety.
So it only matters if he was there right now? That’s going to be a game changer for defense lawyers going forward.
 
You follow it, you are the one saying it's crooked.

Doesn't matter, he ain't there now. Along with six million people who fled.

I guess Texas Republicans don't give a shit about school safety.
It is up to the locals to fix a lot of security issues . Don't disagree
 
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And you are too stupid to know this thread is about war?

Local school board should be making decisions about card readers. If you truly are a libertarian and not a liberal you could probably see that...
If you truly have any sense you would have looked up that county's 2020 election results before making this post. While their school board elections are non-partisan, let's just say it is highly unlikely the school board is ran by liberals. So yes, I stand by my (admittedly sarcastic) post.
 
USA has decided to send HIMARS rocket launch systems to Ukraine.

I will now not guess that we have boots on the ground. No way, we will be that incompetent to send that as the Ukraines need trained and guidance on it and two we better watch and secure the damn things.

We are really trying to get into one here.
 
If you truly have any sense you would have looked up that county's 2020 election results before making this post. While their school board elections are non-partisan, let's just say it is highly unlikely the school board is ran by liberals. So yes, I stand by my (admittedly sarcastic) post.

Sooo, when did I say the school board was run by liberals??? You said Texas Republicans which infers state government. I merely stated card readers should have been a local decision. Man you overthink things...
 
Sooo, when did I say the school board was run by liberals??? You said Texas Republicans which infers state government. I merely stated card readers should have been a local decision. Man you overthink things...
thinking is hard....he's very confused. what he lacks in knowledge he makes up for with confidence.
 
And you are too stupid to know this thread is about war?


If you truly have any sense you would have looked up that county's 2020 election results before making this post. While their school board elections are non-partisan, let's just say it is highly unlikely the school board is ran by liberals. So yes, I stand by my (admittedly sarcastic) post.
You liberal fvcker, I’ve been to war. You are too stupid to realize my “and” was about the corruption in the Ukraine.
 
You said Texas Republicans which infers state government.
Nah, you assumed. You know what they say about assuming...

It wasn't long after the shooting that I looked up the politics of that county. Not to be political per se, but I was curious if it were a Republican county and if this event would change that. I should probably set an alert on my calendar to check back in there in 2024.

So that gave me some knowledge to be a smart-ass prick in this thread. Why? Because it isn't a question of $40b to Ukraine vs making schools safe. Shit, we could cut $40b off our own defense budget for that and no one would even notice it was missing. It's an asinine argument. You want to make school kids safe? Get rid of guns. Period. Nothing else is going to do it. We could make the schools into fortresses and the next prick will shoot up a bus. Or just be honest that you accept the price for gun freedom is sometimes we have dead kids. I'll admit that I accept it. Will Herdman? Wil you?
Man you overthink things...
More like you underthink.
I’ve been to war.
Congratulations?
You are too stupid to realize my “and” was about the corruption in the Ukraine.
And you are too naïve to realize the politicians and media types squawking about Ukraine corruption to argue against helping Ukraine in this fight are Putin stooges. Your party has a streak in it that admires strongmen and kleptocrats like Putin and Orban. Hell, as a vet you should be disavowing those guys, not falling for their bullshit.

Hunter Biden ain't got shit to do with Russia invading Ukraine, period. Herdman seems to think so. Do you?

IDGAF if Ukraine is "corrupt" right now, I give a fvck that Putin is an asshole and is shitting on the peaceful order of Europe.* That's really all that matters right now. Kremlin state TV is talking about Poland is next. Is it bullshit? Beats me, but now's a good time to kick Putin in the dick.

* If we are going to divide the world along ideological lines to secure our economies, Europe is going to be REALLY important for our side.
 
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Nah, you assumed. You know what they say about assuming...

Nope. You said Texas Republicans. You didn't say Uvalde Republicans. Outside of any federal or state mandates school security should be the responsibility of the local school board and administration.

It wasn't long after the shooting that I looked up the politics of that county

Nope, you're not the only one "smart" enough to do that.

More like you underthink.

Nope. Sometimes a duck is just a duck. You however will try to explain why it may be a duck or why it may not be a duck.

I'll give you an example. If a Republican says it's a duck you'll go through an over-thought process of why it isn't a duck. If a Democrat says it's a duck, then you say it's a duck. Pretty simple really. No need for me to overthink it...
 
You said Texas Republicans
Newsflash: it's in Texas.
security should be the responsibility of the local school board and administration
Sure. Until they hire a coward to be their security chief.
Sometimes a duck is just a duck
And sometimes you are just a dumbass.

What say you about accepting the occasional slaughter? Are you not wanting to touch that part of my rant?
 
Newsflash: it's in Texas.

Spoken like the true liberal that you are...

And then the name calling begins...

Sure. Until they hire a coward to be their security chief.

Chief of Police???

What say you about accepting the occasional slaughter? Are you not wanting to touch that part of my rant?

Shoot first like this...


Or more recently this...


We could make the schools into fortresses and the next prick will shoot up a bus.

I once saw a movie like this...

dirty-harry-wallpapers_26485_1024x768.png
 
We could make the schools into fortresses and the next prick will shoot up a bus.

What say you about accepting the occasional slaughter? Are you not wanting to touch that part of my rant?

Let's look at this through the eyes of a common-sense conservative rather than those of a libert, errr, liberal.

1. At least the school bus is a moving target. I've always heard a moving target is harder to hit.
2. Being a moving target, a school bus probably wouldn't be in a "gun-free" school zone. If a school bus is under fire outside a school zone, how many good ole boys including myself will fire back?
3. Vehicles can be weaponized.


4. Let's see what a vehicle can do to a school bus.


Unlike you I'm not ok accepting the "occasional" slaughter. I don't think that is a by-product of whether we have firearms or not in America. I also don't think we should ban vehicles, or firearms, because both can, and have, been used to take innocent lives.
 
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