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This is the best summary I've heard about Afghanistan

extragreen

Platinum Buffalo
Jan 2, 2007
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A few thoughts from someone who spent the last eight years of his career in the military teaching about this stuff.
1. This was a classic example of "mission creep." Our objective was to disrupt Al-Queda and kill bin Laden. We did so. Then, for whatever reason, we decided that Afghans wanted a country in the image of the United States. So, rather than focusing on why we went there in the first place, we allowed ourselves to be sucked into a nation building task.
2. We have the hubris to think that everyone around the planet is just dying for a society that resembles ours. No they do not. Start with the fact that the U.S. is radically individualistic whereas nearly every other society on the planet is far more collectivist. We try to instill our individualist values onto a collectivist society and that never, ever works. Moreover, it is not sufficient to merely install the legal mechanisms of a liberal democracy. Such an effort is doomed to fail if you do not also have the cultural prejudices and social structures that also support a liberal democracy.
3. Afghans have never thought of themselves as Afghans first. Their primary loyalty is to family and tribe and only very secondarily to Afghanistan itself. Additionally, many of them have another loyalty to Islam and view the U.S. and its allies as infidels to be expelled.
4. They are a patient society. They know the U.S. won't be there forever. So, they can just wait us out. Keep hostilities at a low enough level that we don't get really pissed off but keep them at a high enough level that the American public tires of the cost. This is not a new thing. It's not as if the American rebels actually defeated the British empire. We just kept fighting until the British got tired of fighting.
5. The trillions of dollars we sank into Afghanistan, ironically, undermined the legitimacy of the government. Rather than use the money we spent to improve their communities, officials at all levels used it to enrich themselves and their families. After all, that's their primary loyalty. So, Afghanis who weren't recipients of that largesse viewed the entire government as corrupt and illegitimate and they weren't wrong.
6. The Taliban fight for a cause. You may think their cause is wrong, you may even think of it as evil. No matter. That cause motivates them to fight. Afghan soldiers, OTOH, were typically simply joining the Afghan army to make some money. The desertion rates were astonishingly high. Soldiers would enlist just long enough to make whatever money they needed from the enlistment and then they'd desert.
7. As in Vietnam, Americas military leaders either deliberately misled the American public about the capabilities of Afghan forces or, maybe worse, had zero situational awareness as to actual conditions on the ground. The interesting thing is that I heard from more than one person who was there that Afghanistan was a total cluster****, the Afghan forces were a joke, and the government would collapse the second we left.
8. We badly, badly misjudged the speed with which the Afghan government would fall. There are many reasons for this failure but it was colossal nonetheless.
9. Last, and most importantly, American military and civilian leaders need to spend years dissecting what went wrong and writing detailed critiques so that we don't make this mistake again. Well, at least for a while. In a generation or so, we'll forget all about this and **** it up again. It's what we do.
 
I have very little doubt that the "mission creep" was used to the make the rank and file believe it was a noble cause we were fighting for Afghanistan. The main reason we stayed so long though, was to enrich the MIC and those who profit from endless war.
 
EG, it could’ve been all that, or it could’ve been a military industrial complex grift from the start. Which seems more likely to you?
 
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A few thoughts from someone who spent the last eight years of his career in the military teaching about this stuff.
1. This was a classic example of "mission creep." Our objective was to disrupt Al-Queda and kill bin Laden. We did so. Then, for whatever reason, we decided that Afghans wanted a country in the image of the United States. So, rather than focusing on why we went there in the first place, we allowed ourselves to be sucked into a nation building task.
2. We have the hubris to think that everyone around the planet is just dying for a society that resembles ours. No they do not. Start with the fact that the U.S. is radically individualistic whereas nearly every other society on the planet is far more collectivist. We try to instill our individualist values onto a collectivist society and that never, ever works. Moreover, it is not sufficient to merely install the legal mechanisms of a liberal democracy. Such an effort is doomed to fail if you do not also have the cultural prejudices and social structures that also support a liberal democracy.
3. Afghans have never thought of themselves as Afghans first. Their primary loyalty is to family and tribe and only very secondarily to Afghanistan itself. Additionally, many of them have another loyalty to Islam and view the U.S. and its allies as infidels to be expelled.
4. They are a patient society. They know the U.S. won't be there forever. So, they can just wait us out. Keep hostilities at a low enough level that we don't get really pissed off but keep them at a high enough level that the American public tires of the cost. This is not a new thing. It's not as if the American rebels actually defeated the British empire. We just kept fighting until the British got tired of fighting.
5. The trillions of dollars we sank into Afghanistan, ironically, undermined the legitimacy of the government. Rather than use the money we spent to improve their communities, officials at all levels used it to enrich themselves and their families. After all, that's their primary loyalty. So, Afghanis who weren't recipients of that largesse viewed the entire government as corrupt and illegitimate and they weren't wrong.
6. The Taliban fight for a cause. You may think their cause is wrong, you may even think of it as evil. No matter. That cause motivates them to fight. Afghan soldiers, OTOH, were typically simply joining the Afghan army to make some money. The desertion rates were astonishingly high. Soldiers would enlist just long enough to make whatever money they needed from the enlistment and then they'd desert.
7. As in Vietnam, Americas military leaders either deliberately misled the American public about the capabilities of Afghan forces or, maybe worse, had zero situational awareness as to actual conditions on the ground. The interesting thing is that I heard from more than one person who was there that Afghanistan was a total cluster****, the Afghan forces were a joke, and the government would collapse the second we left.
8. We badly, badly misjudged the speed with which the Afghan government would fall. There are many reasons for this failure but it was colossal nonetheless.
9. Last, and most importantly, American military and civilian leaders need to spend years dissecting what went wrong and writing detailed critiques so that we don't make this mistake again. Well, at least for a while. In a generation or so, we'll forget all about this and **** it up again. It's what we do.
Actually, a good post. I don’t think that very many people can argue with that. Points 7-9 are the issues that most people are talking about. The “plan” in place was to simply leave without taking anything else into consideration. Any and probably all senior advisors and generals in charge need to be removed.
 
A few thoughts from someone who spent the last eight years of his career in the military teaching about this stuff.
1. This was a classic example of "mission creep." Our objective was to disrupt Al-Queda and kill bin Laden. We did so. Then, for whatever reason, we decided that Afghans wanted a country in the image of the United States. So, rather than focusing on why we went there in the first place, we allowed ourselves to be sucked into a nation building task.
2. We have the hubris to think that everyone around the planet is just dying for a society that resembles ours. No they do not. Start with the fact that the U.S. is radically individualistic whereas nearly every other society on the planet is far more collectivist. We try to instill our individualist values onto a collectivist society and that never, ever works. Moreover, it is not sufficient to merely install the legal mechanisms of a liberal democracy. Such an effort is doomed to fail if you do not also have the cultural prejudices and social structures that also support a liberal democracy.
3. Afghans have never thought of themselves as Afghans first. Their primary loyalty is to family and tribe and only very secondarily to Afghanistan itself. Additionally, many of them have another loyalty to Islam and view the U.S. and its allies as infidels to be expelled.
4. They are a patient society. They know the U.S. won't be there forever. So, they can just wait us out. Keep hostilities at a low enough level that we don't get really pissed off but keep them at a high enough level that the American public tires of the cost. This is not a new thing. It's not as if the American rebels actually defeated the British empire. We just kept fighting until the British got tired of fighting.
5. The trillions of dollars we sank into Afghanistan, ironically, undermined the legitimacy of the government. Rather than use the money we spent to improve their communities, officials at all levels used it to enrich themselves and their families. After all, that's their primary loyalty. So, Afghanis who weren't recipients of that largesse viewed the entire government as corrupt and illegitimate and they weren't wrong.
6. The Taliban fight for a cause. You may think their cause is wrong, you may even think of it as evil. No matter. That cause motivates them to fight. Afghan soldiers, OTOH, were typically simply joining the Afghan army to make some money. The desertion rates were astonishingly high. Soldiers would enlist just long enough to make whatever money they needed from the enlistment and then they'd desert.
7. As in Vietnam, Americas military leaders either deliberately misled the American public about the capabilities of Afghan forces or, maybe worse, had zero situational awareness as to actual conditions on the ground. The interesting thing is that I heard from more than one person who was there that Afghanistan was a total cluster****, the Afghan forces were a joke, and the government would collapse the second we left.
8. We badly, badly misjudged the speed with which the Afghan government would fall. There are many reasons for this failure but it was colossal nonetheless.
9. Last, and most importantly, American military and civilian leaders need to spend years dissecting what went wrong and writing detailed critiques so that we don't make this mistake again. Well, at least for a while. In a generation or so, we'll forget all about this and **** it up again. It's what we do.
See, greed can add something of value to a thread other than his same old, same old posts. But, #9, we apparently didn't learn from Vietnam. Will we learn from this go round? #2, folks on the other side of the globe don't see things as we do. We can't instill our values on a country that doesn't want them. When the next time comes around, and it will, we need to go in, put the hammer down, and get out. No more pussy footing around.
 
Mission Creep is a HUGE problem across all kinds of institutions.

It's not always nefarious (you look around and see problems in the world and think you have the infrastructure to tackle them), but it can really cause problems.
 
EG, it could’ve been all that, or it could’ve been a military industrial complex grift from the start. Which seems more likely to you?
Your guess is as good as mine. But at about the same time (15 years ago) when I concluded that the wars should have been concluded, I entertained the thought that it would be a better idea to spend the war money on securing who comes into this country. As it turns out, for the same money we could have hired 2 million people at $100,000 each whose job it would be to secure our borders against terrorism. I do not believe that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan provided much if any security for the US. I believe the reason foreign terrorism has been so greatly reduced is the security apparatus we've implemented.
 
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Your guess is as good as mine. But at about the same time (15 years ago) when I concluded that the wars should have been concluded, I entertained the thought that it would be a better idea to spend the war money on securing who comes into this country. As it turns out, for the same money we could have hired 2 million people at $100,000 each whose job it would be to secure our borders against terrorism. I do not believe that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan provided much if any security for the US. I believe the reason foreign terrorism has been so greatly reduced is the security apparatus we've implemented.
Many, many, many truly evil men have been eliminated from the face of the Earth from both countries. Men that would kill you simply for having a different belief. Men that oppressed women, raped children. The ones that weren’t killed were imprisoned and have been set free within the past few days during this debacle. Their will be some inner turmoil amongst the Taliban and tribal feudalism will make a return.
 
Many, many, many truly evil men have been eliminated from the face of the Earth from both countries. Men that would kill you simply for having a different belief. Men that oppressed women, raped children. The ones that weren’t killed were imprisoned and have been set free within the past few days during this debacle. Their will be some inner turmoil amongst the Taliban and tribal feudalism will make a return.
And those evil men have been replaced with other evil men. We accomplished exactly nothing. We cannot, absolutely cannot police the world. Fact.
 
And those evil men have been replaced with other evil men. We accomplished exactly nothing. We cannot, absolutely cannot police the world. Fact.
I can agree with that, and can one up it and say that we can’t house the entire world and provide for the entire world too.
 
All I have to say is the men and women in uniform did their job and did it well. They lost lives, limbs, and many part of their soul and mental well being. I was blessed to work with many of them who had multiple deployments there. They are some of the finest people I have met.

The troops continue to do the mission now in what may be the final days. I have my doubts in the long run. But, maybe that is me being skeptical of politicians and brass. History tends to repeat itself. I hope not, but i have a feeling at some point, we will have our nose in there somewhere.

The politicians failed, the leaders in the Pentagon failed. The troops did not. What I saw this weekend was one of the most embarrassing things I have ever seen from this country. How we got there could be talked about for decades and it might well be. That's on politicians(across all sides and multiple admins) and the leadership at the Pentagon(many of them for years).

To the men and women who served and continue to do so: Thank you!
 
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All I have to say is the men and women in uniform did their job and did it well. They lost lives, limbs, and many part of their soul and mental well being. I was blessed to work with many of them who had multiple deployments there. They are some of the finest people I have met.

The troops continue to do the mission now in what may be the final days. I have my doubts in the long run. But, maybe that is me being skeptical of politicians and brass. History tends to repeat itself. I hope not, but i have a feeling at some point, we will have our nose in there somewhere.

The politicians failed, the leaders in the Pentagon failed. The troops did not. What I saw this weekend was one of the most embarrassing things I have ever seen from this country. How we got there could be talked about for decades and it might well be. That's on politicians(across all sides and multiple admins) and the leadership at the Pentagon(many of them for years).

To the men and women who served and continue to do so: Thank you!
Our troops are rock stars! They performed their duties admirably. As always, the politicians looking for good sound bites and good optics screw everything up. My hats off to all the brave American men and women that serve or have served our country!!
 
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All I have to say is the men and women in uniform did their job and did it well. They lost lives, limbs, and many part of their soul and mental well being. I was blessed to work with many of them who had multiple deployments there. They are some of the finest people I have met.

The troops continue to do the mission now in what may be the final days. I have my doubts in the long run. But, maybe that is me being skeptical of politicians and brass. History tends to repeat itself. I hope not, but i have a feeling at some point, we will have our nose in there somewhere.

The politicians failed, the leaders in the Pentagon failed. The troops did not. What I saw this weekend was one of the most embarrassing things I have ever seen from this country. How we got there could be talked about for decades and it might well be. That's on politicians(across all sides and multiple admins) and the leadership at the Pentagon(many of them for years).

To the men and women who served and continue to do so: Thank you!
No beef with our troops. For two decades they have done an impossible task in an admirable way.
 
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All I have to say is the men and women in uniform did their job and did it well. They lost lives, limbs, and many part of their soul and mental well being. I was blessed to work with many of them who had multiple deployments there. They are some of the finest people I have met.

The troops continue to do the mission now in what may be the final days. I have my doubts in the long run. But, maybe that is me being skeptical of politicians and brass. History tends to repeat itself. I hope not, but i have a feeling at some point, we will have our nose in there somewhere.

The politicians failed, the leaders in the Pentagon failed. The troops did not. What I saw this weekend was one of the most embarrassing things I have ever seen from this country. How we got there could be talked about for decades and it might well be. That's on politicians(across all sides and multiple admins) and the leadership at the Pentagon(many of them for years).

To the men and women who served and continue to do so: Thank you!
It’s pretty obvious how heavy a load they were carrying when you look at what happened the moment they weren’t.
 
While good and I don't disagree with the basic premises, much of this is a repeat of what the Russians encountered, and we should have learned from, the 1980s.

Sometimes we focus on raw numbers without drilling down and looking deeper.

Much of the monies spent in Afghanistan over the last twenty years could be considered as foreign aid and not necessarily military spending. Like a lot of US foreign aid it is not always spent wisely and doesn't always find it way to its intended use, often enriching those in power as the OP referenced.

As for the military deployment and military assets, much of the monies spent actually stayed in the US economy. US service members didn't spend 100% of their combat pay in Afghanistan - much of it stayed in the US. Likewise much of the ordinance and equipment was manufactured in the US, paying salaries of those workers and dividends to US stockholders. Anyone here invested in defense stocks? If you are, are you actually part of the problem?

We do look for answers, oftentimes coming up with gross oversimplifications in order to appease our discomfort with situations we don't necessarily understand or are beyond our control. Many times the questions, answers and potential solutions are far more complicated.

We routinely spend more than other nations do on foreign matters that could be spent on domestic programs and infrastructure - almost double our required amount to NATO and 20% of the total UN budget are examples. What about those amounts? Are they wasted monies too?

Lastly on a more cynical note, will these military assets need to be replaced in our arsenal with newer, better and more expensive replacements? Could this be a motivating factor by those very ones Eisenhower warned us about?
 
Hey, we built the Taliban and the Chinese a 12,000 ft runway and didn't even keep it to get people out(nor the airport). We are charitable.
 
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Im pround of EG for keeping his end of the bargain. If he keeps up the good work I might have to make another trip out Wayne.
 
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