1st Coaching Change Made?

[Herd Fever]

After reading everyone's post, I still dont understand why some people STILL dont think Legg is an issue?

For years now the number 1 complaint has been play calling amd lack of diversity. There is HS teams that run a more complex offense than us. We dont motion, we dont take advantage of mismatches, shit we dont even package plays to take advantage of skill sets. We lost our top 2 WRs because they dont trust the offense. We have a 20 game starter on offense whom we dont trust with the offense like we did Cato.

We have backs that can catch the ball out of the backfield and we dont ever run a HB screen or try to Isolate Hyleck on a Lb in the pass game.

Cato amd crew hid the deficiencies with Playcalling. Remember Cato was calling plays at the line and not Legg.

Im sorry but I rather have a new OC and QB and go through growing pains then live through the garbage I saw last year with the same crew.

HS teams run a more complex offense than we do and that's sad.

 

[Herd Fever]

This is likely true, but the defense played lights out that game too. And to go one step further, Justin Haig deserved the MVP over Cato sooooo...............

Defense and Haig did play lights out.

But Cato made key plays through out the game.

 

[Herd Fever]

that's the part I don't get...what happened with Chase? I held on last season insisting that his issues were a lingering concussion, shell shocked from the hit and needing to get over it and/or the terrible lack of protection from the O-line. But there were times when the O-line held and he still was way off on passes.

The only time the OL held was against MTSU.

The OL was by far the biggest disappointment last season. Just terrible from Top to bottom

 

[30Kelly]

Fever, the usual excuse seems to be that "x" player is too new and he (Legg) doesn't want to expand the playbook just yet.

 

[Herd Fever]

Fever, the usual excuse seems to be that "x" player is too new and he (Legg) doesn't want to expand the playbook just yet.

More reasons why Legg should be gone or shouldnt be the OC

 

[Herd Fever]

You know its a bad offense when the defense and the fans are calling your plays out.

Other than Levi Brown, Michael Clark, and Josh Knight......everyone else waa either a returning starter or played meaningful snaps in 2015.

What will be the excuse this year

 

[JudgeDD]

So now we're ragging on Cato? But MJ Litton gets a pass for all shit he pulled? I'd take Cato any day over Litton.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not ragging on Cato. It's just that I've read many posts that credit Cato with making up for Legg's incompetence over those years. It is my opinion that, as good as Cato was, he was a liability in some games. And as much as he led by his sheer will to win, he was divisive factor on the team, as well.

And having said that, I would also take him in a heartbeat over Litton - and that's not ragging on Litton.

 

[JudgeDD]

The only time the OL held was against MTSU.

That's convenient, lazy, and untrue. Other than that, sharp analysis.

 

[Herd Fever]

That's convenient, lazy, and untrue. Other than that, sharp analysis.

Yea??? Name another game where the OL actually played like a Division 1 unit??

 

[Herd Fever]

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not ragging on Cato. It's just that I've read many posts that credit Cato with making up for Legg's incompetence over those years. It is my opinion that, as good as Cato was, he was a liability in some games. And as much as he led by his sheer will to win, he was divisive factor on the team, as well.

And having said that, I would also take him in a heartbeat over Litton - and that's not ragging on Litton.

If Cato was a divisive factor, maybe we had some soft ass players who couldnt handle someone getting on them. I wish we had 85 Catos on the team last year.

 

[Herd Fever]

That's convenient, lazy, and untrue. Other than that, sharp analysis.

The only thing that was more embarrassing than the play of the OL was Bill Legg play calling.

 

[19MU88]

So now we're ragging on Cato? But MJ Litton gets a pass for all shit he pulled? I'd take Cato any day over Litton.

I would too, who wouldn't. I'd guess our record would have been similar maybe better if Fro was chosen over Cato.

 

[beefcake0520]

No disrespect but after finishing 3-9 last year I'd say there is plenty of reason to be negative.

Sure there is reason to be but there is also reasons to be hopeful. All I am saying is the constant negativity is getting out of hand and borderline obsessive. We have a chance to make a decent return to winning ways this year, and it could also be another year like last year. Right now, we do not know how the influx of new faces will affect things or if any of the guys learned from last year. At this point it could go either way. Here is why I say this: We have very talented kids coming in and joining the team as transfers and non qualifiers from last year. We had a redshirt freshman Gaines sit out the year that will hopefully push Litton and another good freshman coming in that may or may not be able to push. We have lineman coming on that can't do any worse than the group did last year. In all honesty, we hit rock bottom and there is no where to go but up right now. Doc likes open competition and with the added talent coming on its going to make guys who feel their entitled to be starters realize that their position is not written in stone. So yes, we can be pessimistic and say it gonna be another crap season, or we can look at the real issues the team had and see that it can be improved. I choose to be optimistic about it for now. Not a big fan of Legg right now like most of you, but I don't think we can discredit that his plan can work if its executed, we saw it work great from 2012-2015.........So much we really don't know until spring ball and fall camp are under way.

 

[JudgeDD]

The only thing that was more embarrassing than the play of the OL was Bill Legg play calling.

Improvement is needed everywhere, including the OL. I never said otherwise. But I repeat that your comment is convenient (as it is simple to blame the OL every time there is pressure on the QB, even though there are many possible causes), lazy (because to really evaluate the OL you need to first know their assignment, and second, watch each O-lineman on every play to see what and where the problems lie - and most people aren't willing to invest that kind of time to find out if their theory proves out), and untrue (which I think is pretty self-explanatory).

And even if you don't really understand OL play, just do this: Pick any game - your choice - and evaluate the pocket on every pass play. If the pocket collapses or the QB was forced to run, count it against the OL Don't count times when pressure came from a 6th man (the QB/scheme has to account for anything over five). Also, if the play is an RPO, the OL may be zone blocking, so take that into account. I can tell you that in Marshall's worst game last season, the percentage of clean pockets will be about 70%. In the best game, near 90%. But don't take my word for it. Do the homework.

We do agree that there is a lot of room for improvement. I just take offense to your hyperbole.

 

[HerdFan1971]

There's a lot of frustration surrounding Marshall football right now.

The one frustrating point that is most prominent in everyone's eyes is the lack of offensive production. I questioned Bill Legg during Brian Anderson's Senior year and Cato's first two years. Not so much during Cato's last two years. I don't think that anyone can question that Litton's first year was helped tremendously by an extremely experienced and ferocious defense. Last year is the head scratcher. I believe (I could be mistaken) that Bill Legg's offense is primarily a read-option offense. That is an offense that relies primarily on the QB read at the line. It appeared from the sidelines (I could be mistaken) that the QB's reads were handcuffed by the call from the sidelines. I'm not certain how an offense that is based on a read that is made live at the line can ever be successful when that read is removed.

The explanation that you don't want to put too much on a young QB doesn't really work in my book. If you're good enough to be a Division I QB, then you have to be good enough to mentally capture and understand the offense scheme. If a coaching staff feels that they have to remove live play calling from the QBs hands (handcuff him) then that staff has either 1) failed to prepare that QB during camp 2) failed to develop that QB during camp 3) failed to evaluate that QB prior to receiving a scholarship offer or 4) some combination thereof. To me there is not an excuse to remove what makes your offense work - unpredictability - and add into it what will create a recipe for disaster - extreme predictability.

I think that with all of the frustrating things going on with Marshall football right now, the most frustrating is the apparent incompetence of our offensive scheme coupled with a coaching staff that seems to have no trust in the players that they are charged with developing to fit into that scheme. I do not see it as a lack of effort on the players part (at least not during the first half of the season) - frankly the weight room gains are one example that shows how hard these young men are working. Something was amiss last season. I'm not sure if it falls squarely on Bill Legg's offensive scheme, but it certainly seems to be the most glaring puzzle piece that is out of alignment.

 

[bbneutralfan]

HerdFan1971 that is an excellent description of our current offense situation regarding our QB and our OC. Thoughtful.

 

[Chris McLaughlin]

HerdFan1971 that is an excellent description of our current offense situation regarding our QB and our OC. Thoughtful.

@JudgeDD and @HerdFan1971 are two of the brighest football minds on the entire site. Would love it if they continued to post on the free board.

 

[bbneutralfan]

HerdFan1971 certainly presented a well thought out description of the current situation - in my opinion.

 

[Sean Hammond]

HerdFan1971 certainly presented a well thought out description of the current situation - in my opinion.

Absolutely.

I think a lot of the frustration from people who are tired of the negativity doesn't come from the questioning of coaches/administration. Hell, that's what a message board is for. IMO, the frustration comes from the same repetitive points over and over and over. The "why" question isn't used nearly enough on message boards. Look, we get that people don't like Legg. When we were one of the top offenses in the country, and would have a bad game, people would complain about Legg. But it would be cool if every once in a while, someone would bring some substance to the conversation like @JudgeDD and @HerdFan1971 did in this thread.


Question the hell out of people, insight some intelligent debate, try to bring up a point that nobody has talked about, allow the conversation to evolve into something....anything new! When this place becomes an echo-chamber of negativity, the board gets old and stale. People get tired of reading the same garbage over and over again...and good contributors to a message board leave.

 

[goherdorgohome2]

What will happen if that doesn't happen? Will fans like yourself admit they were wrong? No, they'll just patiently wait for a failure and then jump at the chance to attack Doc and Co.

well first off like ourselves are never wrong.... and bill legg is horrible.... the proof is how well developed chase became and mix of play calling, neither of these proved to us that he is someone worth keeping....

 

[goherdorgohome2]

I said long ago it was a mistake letting a proven QB coach as in Tony Petersen go, all he wanted was to be OC and Doc wanted his buddy Bill....

 

[Josh Stowers]

I said long ago it was a mistake letting a proven QB coach as in Tony Petersen go, all he wanted was to be OC and Doc wanted his buddy Bill....

And if you tracked Petersen's career, he's statistically a terrible OC.

 

[goherdorgohome2]

There's a lot of frustration surrounding Marshall football right now.
I believe (I could be mistaken) that Bill Legg's offense is primarily a read-option offense. That is an offense that relies primarily on the QB read at the line. It appeared from the sidelines (I could be mistaken) that the QB's reads were handcuffed by the call from the sidelines. I'm not certain how an offense that is based on a read that is made live at the line can ever be successful when that read is removed.


A read option offense isn't a read at the line to make a play call.... its after the ball is snapped the QB READS a defense end or tackle or line backer, which gives him the OPTIONs to hand it off or keep it, its for a fast pace spread offense with a running QB, like the times CATO would pull the handoff and walk into the endzone..... that's pretty much it.... reading a defense and making a play call is a task that every developed QB Learns given a good coach to teach him..... much like the Great QB in college suck in PROS cause that cant read a Defense, Braxton Miller luckily switched to WR or he wouldn't be PRO for very long..


our young undeveloped uncoached QB isn't the problem... our lack of plays and offense creativeness very much is, bill legg cant do it..

 

[goherdorgohome2]

And if you tracked Petersen's career, he's statistically a terrible OC.

where has he been a OC in his career before leaving marshall for Tech....?

 

[goherdorgohome2]

Tony Petersen has been a OC once before leave marshall. 1998 Marshall University (statistically wasn't a bad year ) then he was never a OC again, only Co OC, but given that he only lead the golden gophers to record setting QB’s or statistically really great offensive records.

Took iowa states QB to new school records in passing and total yards..

dude get my drift… he was here doc let him walk...

 

[jocktalker]

He's been OC at Marshall, La Tech, East Carolina and Co- Oc at Minnesota.

 

[goherdorgohome2]

yes he has

 

[Josh Stowers]

Tony Petersen has been a OC once before leave marshall. 1998 Marshall University (statistically wasn't a bad year ) then he was never a OC again, only Co OC, but given that he only lead the golden gophers to record setting QB’s or statistically really great offensive records.

Took iowa states QB to new school records in passing and total yards..

dude get my drift… he was here doc let him walk...

Yes, and he had his play-calling duties taken away from him at La Tech, which is why he left for ECU.

 

[goherdorgohome2]

That was after he left Marshall ... statistically he was a proven QB coach and offensive machine... and Doc let him walk... dude no since in trying to prove me wrong cause I'm not!!

 

[Josh Stowers]

That was after he left Marshall ... statistically he was a proven QB coach and offensive machine... and Doc let him walk... dude no since in trying to prove me wrong cause I'm not!!

"Offensive machines" don't have their play-calling duties taken away and it's sense, not since.

 

[goherdorgohome2]

Sorry I'm still stuck on before he when to Tech ... maybe U can tell me alittle but about his records then?

 

[Josh Stowers]

Sorry I'm still stuck on before he when to Tech ... maybe U can tell me alittle but about his records then?

I won't argue his ability to groom QB's, but his play-calling is awful. There's a reason he's never been able to keep a job for extended periods of time.

 

[goherdorgohome2]

Humm... didn't know he got fired a lot ...

 

[goherdorgohome2]

Just admit I'm right... that he had proven himself enough to become the OC at Marshall before Doc let him go... bill legg could have been a CO OC

 

[Josh Stowers]

Just admit I'm right... that he had proven himself enough to become the OC at Marshall before Doc let him go... bill legg could have been a CO OC

But you're not. He's done nothing to convince myself or more importantly Doc, to say he's qualified for the job.

 

[goherdorgohome2]

I would take a repeat of marshall 1998 season...

 

[Josh Stowers]

I would take a repeat of marshall 1998 season...

Well, you have two guys in the backfield with NFL careers so yeah, I think most would. That had very little to do with Petersen.

 

[goherdorgohome2]

Ohh really... ok... didn't know he wasn't involved with Marshall before 1998

 

[goherdorgohome2]

Didn't know he developed Pennington and leftwich my bad

 

[Josh Stowers]

Didn't know he developed Pennington and leftwich my bad

You fail to understand there's an IMMENSE difference there is between coaching a position and building, installing, and controlling an offense.