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Another shooting spree...

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CockyHerd said:
If you don't believe that the number of guns in the US, the style of weapons, and ease of access, do not play a significant role in the number of gun deaths in the US, you're a fool.

End of discussion.......
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If I took every weapon in the United States and locked them in a huge warehouse for a year, how many people would be killed by those weapons?

The answer would be none.

The guns still exist in the same number and style, but nobody got shot. So that eliminates those two variables from the equation and gets us closer to the real point, what you are calling access and what I would call the human variable.

The obvious point to me is that it's not access that is the issue, it's acquisition of weapons by people that are mentally unstable. No mentally stable person, with a sense of right and wrong, walks in to a school and starts shooting random, unarmed people that pose no threat. Otherwise rational people may shoot someone in a moment of rage, but they don't plan and execute large scale shootings of innocent people. Those same people that act in rage would use a bat or knife as quickly as a gun in most cases, so I view that a small issue.

So it becomes a question of how you keep weapons out of the hands of mentally unstable people and who makes that determination. Well, those laws already exist, so the answer to me falls in tweaking those laws if necessary and enforcing them vigorously. Then you have to attack the problem of what appears to be a growing number of mentally unstable people out there. It astounds me how many kids are medicated this days for "mental issues" that either didn't exist before or were handled as discipline issues. We coddle kids and they can't handle the realities of life. Instead of busting their azz to make them behave we drug them up. We don't tell them no and they don't learn to handle disappointment. They don't mature mentally. It's generally kids and young adults doing these shootings.
 
WV-FAN said:
the disrespect thing, i get it. everybody on this site tends to disrespect everybody else. just the way it is. perhaps this forum isn't for you.

do you seriously believe that the number of guns in this country is what causes these mass killings? do you seriously believe that mental illness of some form is not a cause? have you looked at drug abuse as a possible underlying factor? do you realize that the USA has one of the largest issues of drug abuse in the world? that it's grown worse over the years, just like mass shootings? did you notice my previous post that shows when mass shootings have occurred and that half of those in the US have occurred over the previous decade?

frankly, no, i didn't read your links or info posted about mentally ill. why? because you've indicated that because the researcher's findings was that mental illness had nothing to do with mass shootings then it must be the guns. this feeds right into the idea that a gun isn't going to do anything unless someone picks it up and controls it. it's not the guns. it's not because 30% of the population own all the guns. it's because the people that do it are fukt in the head. and, again, anybody that thinks that mental illness plays no part in these killings are even more fukt in the head . . . that, or they have a political agenda.
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It was obvious you did not read any of the articles. You are a real smart gentleman and have everything figured out. No need to read anything contrary to what I believe. To steal a phrase from our illustrious leader, "So sad".
 
WV-FAN said:
the disrespect thing, i get it. everybody on this site tends to disrespect everybody else. just the way it is. perhaps this forum isn't for you.

do you seriously believe that the number of guns in this country is what causes these mass killings? do you seriously believe that mental illness of some form is not a cause? have you looked at drug abuse as a possible underlying factor? do you realize that the USA has one of the largest issues of drug abuse in the world? that it's grown worse over the years, just like mass shootings? did you notice my previous post that shows when mass shootings have occurred and that half of those in the US have occurred over the previous decade?

frankly, no, i didn't read your links or info posted about mentally ill. why? because you've indicated that because the researcher's findings was that mental illness had nothing to do with mass shootings then it must be the guns. this feeds right into the idea that a gun isn't going to do anything unless someone picks it up and controls it. it's not the guns. it's not because 30% of the population own all the guns. it's because the people that do it are fukt in the head. and, again, anybody that thinks that mental illness plays no part in these killings are even more fukt in the head . . . that, or they have a political agenda.
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Drug abuse is mentioned in several of the articles as a possibility. They are not mentally ill. Drugs can cause violent behavior

Mass Shootings and their media coverage reinforce the common belief that individuals with serious mental illness are violent and dangerous, especially if they have access to firearms.

Some of the most common misperceptions surrounding gun violence and mental illness include:

Most persons with serious mental illness, such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, are at high risk of committing violence toward others.
Serious mental illness is one of the primary causes of gun violence in the U.S.
People with serious mental illness are more likely to perpetrate violent crime than to be victims of violent crime.
here are facts:

  • Most persons with serious mental illness are never violent. However, small subgroups of persons with serious mental illness are at increased risk of violence during certain high-risk periods, such as during a first-episode of psychosis and the period surrounding inpatient psychiatric hospitalization.
  • People with serious mental illness are rarely violent. Only 3 to 5 percent of all violence, including but not limited to firearm violence, is attributable to serious mental illness. The large majority of gun violence toward others is not caused by mental illness.
  • People with serious mental illness are far more likely to be victims of violence, including but not limited to firearm violence, than the perpetrators of violent acts.
  • Rates of violent crime victimization are 12 times higher among the population of persons with serious mental illness than among the overall U.S. population.
And here are some suggested policy and program interventions:

  • Firearm prohibitions should be expanded to include:
  • More individuals with a history of violent behavior, which greatly increases the risk for perpetration of future violence toward others.
  • Specifically, individuals convicted of violent misdemeanor crimes and those subject to ex partedomestic violence restraining orders should be temporarily prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms.
  • Individuals with a history of risky substance use, which heightens risk of violence toward others.
  • Specifically, individuals convicted of multiple DWIs or DUIs and multiple misdemeanor crimes involving controlled substances should be temporarily prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms.
 
Herd1972 said:
Individuals with a history of risky substance use, which heightens risk of violence toward others.
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Define risky substance abuse. This is how we go down the rabbit hole....doesn't all substance abuse carry a level of risk?

I'm not trying to be a jerk. But as with most things legislative, there's a lot of ambiguity being thrown around in this debate.
 
Raoul Duke MU said:
Define risky substance abuse. This is how we go down the rabbit hole....doesn't all substance abuse carry a level of risk?

I'm not trying to be a jerk. But as with most things legislative, there's a lot of ambiguity being thrown around in this debate.
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That is why I question the "red flag" laws.

Neighbor who is a left coast liberal sees herdman out in the yard and the weed eater won't start. She hears "SOB, MFer, piece of shit!" Herdman grabs a beer and sits down and drinks it and cusses the weed eater some more.

She calls cops. He is angry violent, was drinking, threatened to kill his weed eater. I know he has guns in the house.
 
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Raoul Duke MU said:
Define risky substance abuse. This is how we go down the rabbit hole....doesn't all substance abuse carry a level of risk?

I'm not trying to be a jerk. But as with most things legislative, there's a lot of ambiguity being thrown around in this debate.
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It would not be easy, but folks that specialize in substance abuse are certainly aware of the effects of drugs on us and would be able to help us all understand the drugs that can cause the most propensity to unpredictable behavior. That would be a start. We certainly have enough evidence that drugs, anti social behavior of any kind, history of domestic violence or disputes can be predictive of violent outbursts. These folks can be identified by law enforcement, school officials or anyone that has been victimized by them. These folks, if adjudicated as a danger, would not be allowed to own a gun and would need to demonstrate a period of adequate adjustment, i.e. drug free, no tangles with the police, counseling or other documentation indicating improved functioning, to open the door for gun purchase. If these folks are unable to do what is necessary to regain that right, then they will never be allowed to purchase a gun. This would operate in much the same way that a drug Court operates today. Do well with treatment, get a job, remain clean and eventually your record is cleared. My brother-in-law was a drug court judge in N.J. for several years and indicated this was the most satisfying experience he had.
 
i am herdman said:
That is why I question the "red flag" laws.

Neighbor who is a left coast liberal sees herdman out in the yard and the weed eater won't start. She hears "SOB, MFer, piece of shit!" Herdman grabs a beer and sits down and drinks it and cusses the weed eater some more.

She calls cops. He is angry violent, was drinking, threatened to kill his weed eater. I know he has guns in the house.
Click to expand...

There would have be a history of numerous such events before being identified as someone that should not be allowed to purchase a gun.
 
Herd1972 said:
There would have be a history of numerous such events before being identified as someone that should not be allowed to purchase a gun.
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San Francisco just labeled the NRA as domestic terrorists. Antifa members are filing fake CPS reports on Trump supporters. Red flag laws would be abused and completely innocent citizens could be punished. Due process would take a back seat to 'public safety'. This is a very slippery slope.
 
It never ceases to amaze me how people believe that a government which can't run the DMV or police who deliver warrants to the wrong houses can be trusted to run a complicated red tag list.
 
HerdFan76 said:
San Francisco just labeled the NRA as domestic terrorists. Antifa members are filing fake CPS reports on Trump supporters. Red flag laws would be abused and completely innocent citizens could be punished. Due process would take a back seat to 'public safety'. This is a very slippery slope.
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Not if it is handled the same way as a drug court. Due process is applied.
 
wvkeeper(HN) said:
It never ceases to amaze me how people believe that a government which can't run the DMV or police who deliver warrants to the wrong houses can be trusted to run a complicated red tag list.
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You are correct. No private businessman, police officer, public servant or individual is going to make correct decisions all the time. Providing the proper guidelines and laws would minimize large scale abuse.
 
Herd1972 said:
help us all understand the drugs that can cause the most propensity to unpredictable behavior
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That would be alcohol. Alcohol leads to more unpredictable behavior and criminal law violations than every other drug combined.

So again, define risky substance abuse. Bob got a little shitfaced at the tailgate, take his guns :rolleyes:
 
HerdFan76 said:
Civil forfeiture, where you're guilty until proven innocent, happens all the time.
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If that were true, we would have much civil unrest than we do. Our country is still the greatest country in the world, even with our propensity for human error.
Folks that have too many errors in their work, typically, do not last.
 
Well if the recent court ruling overturning the terrorism watchlist stands we more than likely won’t have to worry about red flag laws
 
HerdFan76 said:
It's not human error, it's theft and corruption.
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Are you saying that everyone working as police, law enforcement, lawyers, Judges, and public servants is trying to steal and abuse the public? They are folks just like you and me trying to make a living and doing the best that they can. There are certainly folks in every occupation that can and does abuse their positions and authority. To paint such a broad stoke is the kind of bad information that can push someone on edge over the edge. Let's kill all those folks since none are worthwhile.
 
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Raoul Duke MU said:
That would be alcohol. Alcohol leads to more unpredictable behavior and criminal law violations than every other drug combined.

So again, define risky substance abuse. Bob got a little shitfaced at the tailgate, take his guns :rolleyes:
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The same principles would be applied. It is fine for your friend to get drunk and own gun. It is not fine to have legal entanglement because of his drinking. That should include DUI's, DWI's, bar fights, domestic violence, sexual assault, anything that is harmful to someone else. Again, one isolated incident would not be enough to warrant taking away your friends gun. I do not know where the cutoff should be, but we need to try something to lower our mass killings. Doing nothing is insane.
 
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Herd1972 said:
The same principles would be applied. It is fine for your friend to get drunk and own gun. It is not fine to have legal entanglement because of his drinking. That should include DUI's, DWI's, bar fights, domestic violence, sexual assault, anything that is harmful to someone else. Again, one isolated incident would not be enough to warrant taking away your friends gun. I do not know where the cutoff should be, but we need to try something to lower our mass killings. Doing nothing is insane.
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Since the majority of mass shootings have involved the use of a semi-automatic long rifle, I can't possibly imagine what one of the solutions could be...…..
 
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Herd1972 said:
Are you saying that everyone working as police, law enforcement, lawyers, Judges, and public servants is trying to steal and abuse the public? They are folks just like you and me trying to make a living and doing the best that they can. There are certainly folks in every occupation that can and does abuse their positions and authority. To paint such a broad stoke is the kind of bad information that can push someone on edge over the edge. Let's kill all those folks since none are worthwhile.
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Damn dude. I'm saying that because this is even possible is reason to not trust red flag laws or give government any more power than it already has. Or relinquish your own.
 
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HerdFan76 said:
Damn dude. I'm saying that because this is even possible is reason to not trust red flag laws or give government any more power than it already has. Or relinquish your own.
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Because what is possible? What specific jobs that I mentioned do you not trust, police, judges, public employees of any kind? When you say government, please be more specific and explain exactly the concerns you have.
 
CockyHerd said:
Since the majority of mass shootings have involved the use of a semi-automatic long rifle, I can't possibly imagine what one of the solutions could be...…..
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So if you outlaw those and they use pistols like the Virginia Tech shooter then what do you do? Or that guy at Univ of Texas years ago who used a bolt action rifle. What do you do then?
 
Red Flag laws are idiotic.

Hey man I think my neighbor drinks to much and he might drink and drive. Take his car.
 
i am herdman said:
So if you outlaw those and they use pistols like the Virginia Tech shooter then what do you do? Or that guy at Univ of Texas years ago who used a bolt action rifle. What do you do then?
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The path is obvious. Ban ARs; then push the fact that most gun homicides are by pistols - so ban them next. Ban 223 because of it's muzzle velocity, then realize a weightier round (9mm), creates more cavitation or over-penetration than 223, so ban it, too. The ballistic geniuses ITT love it.
 
No matter how many kids are shot up.. there's just too many great reasons to do nothing.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
 
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Chevy1 said:
No matter how many kids are shot up.. there's just too many great reasons to do nothing.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
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Ban vehicles because of car related homicides. Ban fattening foods because of obesity related deaths.
 
Both of which far outweigh gun related deaths, you half-whit fvcks.
 
HerdFan76 said:
Both of which far outweigh gun related deaths, you half-whit fvcks.
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That comment appears to be the pot calling the kettle black. Resorting to name calling indicates you do not have anything important to add to the conversation. You are showing total disregard for anyone who has lost a brother, sister, son, daughter, father, mother, friend to gun violence. Hope you never have that experience.
Do you have any constructive suggestions to reduce the number of mass killings we are experiencing or do you simply not care!
 
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Herd1972 said:
That comment appears to be the pot calling the kettle black. Resorting to name calling indicates you do not have anything important to add to the conversation. You are showing total disregard for anyone who has lost a brother, sister, son, daughter, father, mother, friend to gun violence. Hope you never have that experience.
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I have experienced it, many times. And I still don't blame gun, I blame the person. Don't ever assume a fvcking thing about me.
 
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Herd1972 said:
That comment appears to be the pot calling the kettle black. Resorting to name calling indicates you do not have anything important to add to the conversation. You are showing total disregard for anyone who has lost a brother, sister, son, daughter, father, mother, friend to gun violence. Hope you never have that experience.
Do you have any constructive suggestions to reduce the number of mass killings we are experiencing or do you simply not care!
Click to expand...

It's not calling the kettle black. Obesity and vehicle deaths far outnumber gun related deaths.
 
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I am not willing to be a subject or at the mercy of totalitarians or dictators. The 2nd Amendment is the great equalizer and insurance policy. I am also not willing to make knee jerk reactions and let people shat all over that Amendment. IT is not negotiable.
 
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Herd1972 said:
Because what is possible? What specific jobs that I mentioned do you not trust, police, judges, public employees of any kind? When you say government, please be more specific and explain exactly the concerns you have.
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I'm referencing the conversation, and how the 2A could be chipped away.

Have you watched the democrat debates? They're a bunch of authoritarian monsters. Kamala Harris said she'd (as POTUS), would outlaw filibuster on the Senate floor to avoid a vote. This show's she doesn't understand or respect separation of power. This is a person running for President and no news media even challenged her on that.

Every Dem prospect endorses a buy back program. Answer me this - What happens if someone refuses to 'sell' their firearm?

What then, @Herd1972 ?
 
HerdFan76 said:
It's not calling the kettle black. Obesity and vehicle deaths far outnumber gun related deaths.
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Seems as though you and herdman do not care. The conversation will continue whether either of you like it or not. It is not about the 2d amendment. It is about trying to keep our society safer. Car wrecks and obesity may well kill more people every year. These folks chose to drive a car and or over eat. We are usually aware of the risks involved with either. Victims of mass shootings did not choose to die and certainly were not aware of the risk of going to school, a movie, outdoor concert, or shopping. If this is the world you want, then you are in a minority. The 2d amendment is a right. With that also comes some serious responsibility. If this right is abused, i.e. mass shootings of innocent men, women and children, then, as a society, we need to develop plans that will minimize them. Identifying folks with addictions, anti social behavior, history of violent outbursts, sexual assaults, through the current law enforcement records would be a start. Treat them in the same way you treat an Addict in drug court. Keep yourself out of trouble, clean, involved in constructive activity and you will regain the right to own a firearm. If you don't, then you will not allowed to purchase a gun for the rest of your life. If only 30% of Americans own guns, then we are not talking about a big burden here.
We are talking about keeping weapons from folks that are not "Law Abiding", until they demonstrate some life changes. That would help them, and keep us safer. And I do not suggest this would eliminate all mass shootings. It would certainly be worth trying something. Not sure I understand your anger, 76. You don't expect to be able to dish out insults to folks without some kind of response.
 
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Herd1972 said:
Seems as though you and herdman do not care. The conversation will continue whether either of you like it or not. It is not about the 2d amendment. It is about trying to keep our society safer. Car wrecks and obesity may well kill more people every year. These folks chose to drive a car and or over eat. We are usually aware of the risks involved with either. Victims of mass shootings did not choose to die and certainly were not aware of the risk of going to school, a movie, outdoor concert, or shopping. If this is the world you want, then you are in a minority. The 2d amendment is a right. With that also comes some serious responsibility. If this right is abused, i.e. mass shootings of innocent men, women and children, then, as a society, we need to develop plans that will minimize them. Identifying folks with addictions, anti social behavior, history of violent outbursts, sexual assaults, through the current law enforcement records would be a start. Treat them in the same way you treat an Addict in drug court. Keep yourself out of trouble, clean, involved in constructive activity and you will regain the right to own a firearm. If you don't, then you will not allowed to purchase a gun for the rest of your life. If only 30% of Americans own guns, then we are not talking about a big burden here.
We are talking about keeping weapons from folks that are not "Law Abiding", until they demonstrate some life changes. That would help them, and keep us safer. And I do not suggest this would eliminate all mass shootings. It would certainly be worth trying something. Not sure I understand your anger, 76. You don't expect to be able to dish out insults to folks without some kind of response.
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How many people did a year in mass shootings?
 
i am herdman said:
How many people did a year in mass shootings?
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There have been 297 mass shootings, 335 have died, 1219 wounded thus far in 2019. Can you think of some way to help? Always think we can improve.
We do not have to accept this as normal. 7 of these occurred in schools and 2 in places of worship.
 
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