Green is CUSA co-FOY

[Marine03]

Some may know the gory details but wasn’t it Marshall Reynolds companies that paid the players more than normal for the jobs they were “given”.
And did this mops for props program get kids in here that we can say without a doubt made the difference between a victory and a loss?
I don’t recall getting any high rated superstar player to come here because we paid them. Did we?
I honestly don’t recall.

We weren’t paying them enough to drive Escalades. Licious thinks all football players are poor and their parents don’t spoil some with expensive cars.

 

[pdbailey]

How long do you think he’s going to be here with Doc dictating how he runs his offense?

I have a feeling the offense will be more open next season with the QBs having more experience in and understanding of the system. That said, if Cramsey isn't allowed to go more open with his offense, I could see him deciding to look for another gig.

 

[Sslt75]

Now we were paying players? Does free beer at the damn union count? This revisionist stuff is kinda out of hand. Maybe I was naive when I was there but I don’t recall people getting escalades and stuff. I drove my parents car my rookie freaking season. I know Byron wasn’t driving an Escalade either. Chad was notorious for driving a beat up Buick. My wife even picked up watts riding a busted bicycle. Maybe the real boosters showed up after we finished winning? Cmon man!

 

[Sslt75]

And we beat out some small D2 or 1AA school for butchie. Doubt they’d do that for an Unranked player.

 

[TwolfHerdfan]

Now we were paying players? Does free beer at the damn union count? This revisionist stuff is kinda out of hand. Maybe I was naive when I was there but I don’t recall people getting escalades and stuff. I drove my parents car my rookie freaking season. I know Byron wasn’t driving an Escalade either. Chad was notorious for driving a beat up Buick. My wife even picked up watts riding a busted bicycle. Maybe the real boosters showed up after we finished winning? Cmon man!

Thanks for the info. Some seem to go out of their way to discount what you guys achieved back in the day. I relish and enjoyed it, so did everyone in our section of the Joan.

 

[mlblack16.]

Uhh, yeah.That's the point. He has been at Marshall as long as all but one coach, yet he only has one championship. That's why he's considered on a permanent hot seat.

 

[mlblack16.]

Thanks for the info. Some seem to go out of their way to discount what you guys achieved back in the day. I relish and enjoyed it, so did everyone in our section of the Joan.

It's because they need a convenient excuse to explain how no one has ever been successful at Marshall using his talent to overcome any limitations with resources, players, etc.

We had players who were raw, but talented. We had a coaching staff who knew how to develop talent. Doc has recruited more "starred" athletes during his tenure at Marshall than any other head football coach, yet has accomplished the least amount with said athletes.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

How about this: show me all of the G5 teams with a first-year starting JUCO transfer. There aren't many - Georgia State, Southern Miss, UNLV, Kent State, UTSA?

First off there is a reason for that. JUCOs don't produce enough FBS starting caliber QBs

If. If. If. You're post is full of what ifs. What if Marshall would have signed Cam Newton out of JUCO. What if Marshall would have signed Nick Marshall out of JUCO.

Unless you sign one of the top JUCO QBs which almost always go to P5s then it's a waste of time. First off most JUCOs take one year to learn the system and their Junior seasons end up being no different than a RS FR in terms of production. We've seen that time and time again. We sign a JUCO and he doesn't take off the way people expected then in their senior season they blow up. Think Arnold Blackmon. No one here is going to be fine with bringing in another QB and waiting for him to develop in hopes he has a good 2020 campaign.

Transfers are a HUGE crap shoot. They are transferring for a reason. They weren't good enough to play where they were or they had to part ways with their team. When it comes to starting QBs the pool is even shallower. Unless we just look at Grad Transfers and once again the ones good enough to accomplish what the fans here are demanding aren't committing to Marshall or any other G5.

None of what you said remotely counters my point. People calling for a JUCO or a transfer are assuming that plugging in said player would have taken us from 8-4 to conference championship which is just a false assumption based off of fanaticism.

The fan base was split over Cato and Graham during Cato's freshman season. He locks onto one WR, can't make his progressions, can't throw down field, has attitude issues, is afraid to run, isn't a threat in the RPO and on and on and on and on. Had the fans gotten their way he never would have returned after his blowup at UCF. The fans were hard on Byron in his first season too. Chad had some disastrous games. Heck there were times in Cato's good years that fans wanted Blake to be out there.

 

[herdalicious]

I'll offer an alternate theory then: according to the most recent USA Today list of college athletics budgets, there are 17 present-day FBS schools that appear on the list ahead of Marshall, and did not play I-A football in 1997.

Meanwhile, the number of high school kids playing football has declined.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

First off there is a reason for that. JUCOs don't produce enough FBS starting caliber QBs
.

There are enough JUCO QBs starting at both P5 and G5 schools that would have allowed Marshall to play in their conference championship this season had they signed one of them. I listed a handful of them.

I believe there are about 65 NJCAA football playing teams. There were at least 12 first-year FBS starting QBs who had transferred from a JUCO. That's a pretty good landing rate.

If. If. If. You're post is full of what ifs. What if Marshall would have signed Cam Newton out of JUCO. What if Marshall would have signed Nick Marshall out of JUCO.

Do you even remember what you were arguing? You claimed that you can't expect a G5 to land a JUCO who can lead them to a conference championship. I told you that was bullshit. I listed a handful of QBs with all of the restrictions you listed (JUCO QB, in his first year, starting, at a G5) that would have performed just as well or better than either Marshall QB this year. At least two of them would have allowed Marshall to play in the conference championship game.

In other words, your claim was bogus. There were (and are) first-year JUCO QBs at the G5 level who could have led Marshall to win the conference this season had Marshall signed one of them instead of who they did.

Unless you sign one of the top JUCO QBs which almost always go to P5s then it's a waste of time.
.

That's simply bullshit. I listed 5-6 that weren't "a waste of time" at G5 levels this year alone. I could do the same every year.

None of what you said remotely counters my point. People calling for a JUCO or a transfer are assuming that plugging in said player would have taken us from 8-4 to conference championship which is just a false assumption based off of fanaticism.

Your point was that Marshall cannot expect to get a JUCO QB that leads them to a C-USA title. I showed you that they can. I showed 5-6 QBs that fit all of your criteria who would have been just as good or better than what they used this year. I could list more if need be.

That does more than "remotely counters" your point. You realize that Marshall beating MTSU would have put them in the C-USA championship game, right? There were QBs who fit your criteria that would have made that happen for Marshall this year. Hell, one of them played in C-USA.

The fan base was split over Cato and Graham during Cato's freshman season. He locks onto one WR, can't make his progressions, can't throw down field, has attitude issues, is afraid to run, isn't a threat in the RPO and on and on and on and on. Had the fans gotten their way he never would have returned after his blowup at UCF. The fans were hard on Byron in his first season too. Chad had some disastrous games. Heck there were times in Cato's good years that fans wanted Blake to be out there.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with your attempted argument or my refuting of it. This isn't a discussion about if Green will develop into a good QB. It is about your bogus arguments about JUCO QBs.

There were plenty of JUCO QBs at G5s this year who would have been as good or better than what Marshall put out there this year. Some of them would have performed well enough for Marshall to play in the C-USA championship game.

 

[BleedsGreen33]

Your point was that Marshall cannot expect to get a JUCO QB that leads them to a C-USA title. I showed you that they can. I showed 5-6 QBs that fit all of your criteria who would have been just as good or better than what they used this year. I could list more if need be.

You did? You listed Georgia State, Southern Miss, UNLV, Kent State, UTSA. How did their teams do? Did they win their conferences? So you just assume that IF they played at Marshall they would be better than what we have now.

I said G5 staring QBs that won their conference title and preferably in their first year. Once again the assumption made by the poster was that bringing in a JUCO would make this team better and the only acceptable better according to posts is to win the conference.

My point is that your reply was all based off of assumption. Show me evidence of JUCO QBs coming into G5 teams and winning their conference. It does not happen and if it does it is few and far between. Just saying "Well if this guy played here we'd be better," is a straw man argument.

Like you citing USM's QB. By rattling off his stats which did not produce a conference title you are assuming he would just automatically do that here. In doing so you are blaming our record off of QB play alone and not the coaching. You could also say that Green could be put on another team and perform better. Again these are all hypothetical situations.

My point was and still is that the grass is not always greener on the other side. The assumption is a JUCO/Transfer QB would have lifted this team into a conference title. Facts don't back that up.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

You did? You listed Georgia State, Southern Miss, UNLV, Kent State, UTSA.

The hole in your attempt is that a quarterback is the only factor that decides a conference championship. Though a big part of a team's success, it isn't all of it.

You could have put Tua on UTSA, and they wouldn't have won the conference. You could have put Jordan Ta'amu (one of the two best JUCO QBs) last year on UTEP and they wouldn't have won the conference.

Marshall had the best defense, by far, in the division. They had a solid running offense. What they didn't have was either a good running QB to make their running attack lethal or a good passing game. If they had either of those, they play in the conference championship.

Of the G5 schools that I listed, all of them other than the UTSA QB would have been as good or better than what Marshall rolled out there this year. Some of them would have been far better for the offense.

How did their teams do? Did they win their conferences?
.

As I explained, you could have put Tua on UTSA, and they wouldn't have won. Your argument that "those other teams didn't win the conference with those other JUCO QBs proves my point" is illogical. Those other teams don't have the talent advantage compared to the rest of the conference that Marshall has over most of the C-USA teams have.

Kent State wasn't winning the MAC with anyone at QB. UTSA wasn't winning C-USA with anyone at QB.

So you just assume that IF they played at Marshall they would be better than what we have now

Uhh, yeah? Abraham's passing coupled with Marshall's running ability would have greatly improved the offense. Woody Barrett's overall game would have caused fits for defenses, because they'd have to account for the best athlete on the field having the ball in his hands every play.

It isn't an outlandish assumption. If you have a better QB, it usually means the team will be better.

IF Tua played at Marshall, he would be better than what Marshall has now. If Abraham played at Marshall, he would be better than what Marshall has now.

I said G5 staring QBs that won their conference title and preferably in their first year.

And again, your attempt at logic doesn't work as I've already gone over.

Once again the assumption made by the poster was that bringing in a JUCO would make this team better and the only acceptable better according to posts is to win the conference.
.

If you get the right QB, a JUCO could easily improve Marshall. Why is that so hard for you to fathom?

Does taking any JUCO QB mean a team will win their conference? Of course not. However, in Marshall's case, taking a better JUCO QB (Abraham, Woody, etc.) would have led them to the title game since the rest of their team was strong enough to get there. That wasn't the case, regardless of who was at QB, for most of those other teams.

Just saying "Well if this guy played here we'd be better," is a straw man argument.
.

What? You clearly have no idea what a straw man argument is. Don't use phrases that you don't know what the meaning is. It makes you look dumber than your failed argument does.

 

[Y.A.G Si Ye Nots]

My point is that your reply was all based off of assumption.
.

Well, no sh!t. It's an assumption to say that Aaron Rodgers becoming Marshall's QB next season would make them a better team. There's no way to prove it, right? Same thing with saying that Tua, Abraham, or any other QB would make them a better team. It's all an assumption. But only fools will argue that putting better players on a football team, especially a QB whose skill set is what Marshall was missing this year on offense, wouldn't make them a better team.

My point was and still is that the grass is not always greener on the other side. The assumption is a JUCO/Transfer QB would have lifted this team into a conference title. Facts don't back that up.

No. The assumption is not that just any ol' JUCO/transfer QB automatically leads Marshall to a conference title. A BETTER JUCO/transfer QB than what Marshall has now would have led them to a conference championship game. And contrary to your argument that the only worthwhile JUCO QBs go to P5s is bogus, so Marshall wouldn't win with another one, is bogus.

 

[i am herdman]

In Holliday's defense, the coach he is likely being compared to had his own set of distinct, unquestionable advantages.

People don't like to look at it this way, but its unfortunately accurate - Marshall football in the last 30 years can be broken down into distinct eras - Pre-Sanction, and Post. Marshall football since 2003 has been largely flat and uneventful, and we haven't come close to where we were....but for reasons that are obvious if we're honest with ourselves.

Tell me why Doc is a good coach other than he has been at MU for a long period.

Again, Doc has more advantages than just about any other coach in MU history. He makes more money. He has better facilities than most of the conference. He has very good weigh room and indoor practice facility. He plays in a weakened conference(the best programs left). The AD weakened the OOC schedules for him.

I think that is a bigger advantage than a guy coming in making more than the average to work over at Chapman printing. A guy who may not ever see the field.

Doc has it pretty good at Marshall.

Frankly, when you talk like this you are sullying on legends that played the game at Marshall. Teams that were good and a coach that won at a high level, was great to the community, a good man, and did things like give money for that weight room(that is really nice and comparable to bigger schools) so other coaches like Doc could have them.

I get sick of it and the excuse making for what is going on now. I hate that kind of garbage that you talk about and the excuse you make. I hate it for the guys that help build the program and won at high level and I hate it for the fans who helped build it.