Michael Moore is Kind of a Jerk
- Thread starter wvkeeper(HN)
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What a moron. I guess since his 15 minutes have expired, he'll say anything to get press.
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I guess when you become irrelevant you gotta do something to get attention.
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Speaking of snipers...anyone been reading anything about American Sniper Chris Kyle? Jesse Ventura won a defamation suit against his estate for 1.85 million. From what I understand, a celebrity winning this type of suit isn't common. From the articles I've read Kyle wasn't exactly truthful in some of his stories including his claim that he killed over 30 looters from the top of the astrodome during the aftermath of Katrina and that he also killed two carjackers in a service station parking lot. No records or evidence of either event has been found.
With Ventura he claimed that he beat him up in a Seal Bar.
With Ventura he claimed that he beat him up in a Seal Bar.
Urban legend regarding snipers in New Orleans. Some guy claims people told him this. Mostly tabloid type stuff. Doesn't even make sense. Why would they go on top on the Super Dome to shoot people? Far fetched story/
He said he punched Ventura and knocked him down. Ventura is a piece of dung and couldn't let it go. Ventura was running his mouth about the war and of course there was alcohol and alpha males involved. Ventura was embarrassed by it and was money grabbing.
This post was edited on 1/18 7:21 PM by i am herdman
Not urban legend according to most everything I've read. Kyle was even quoted on it...
http://frontburner.dmagazine.com/2013/02/08/confirmed-american-sniper-chris-kyle-killed-two-men-at-a-gas-station-in-2009/
The Washington Post doesn't believe the stories are urban legend as well...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/30/the-complicated-but-unveriable-legacy-of-chris-kyle-the-deadliest-sniper-in-american-history/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/30/the-complicated-but-unveriable-legacy-of-chris-kyle-the-deadliest-sniper-in-american-history/
The New Yorker as well...
"The session went well. Kilbane told me that he was struck by Kyle's "aura," noting that whenever "he walked in the room the dynamic would change, the energy in the room would shift." Afterward, a larger group went out for dinner, closed the hotel bar, and hung out in Kyle's suite, drinking until late. The SEALs began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, he said, the law-and-order situation was dire. He and another sniper travelled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceeded to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos. Three people shared with me varied recollections of that evening: the first said that Kyle claimed to have shot thirty men on his own; according to the second, the story was that Kyle and the other sniper had shot thirty men between them; the third said that she couldn't recall specific details."
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/03/in-the-crosshairs
"The session went well. Kilbane told me that he was struck by Kyle's "aura," noting that whenever "he walked in the room the dynamic would change, the energy in the room would shift." Afterward, a larger group went out for dinner, closed the hotel bar, and hung out in Kyle's suite, drinking until late. The SEALs began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, he said, the law-and-order situation was dire. He and another sniper travelled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceeded to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos. Three people shared with me varied recollections of that evening: the first said that Kyle claimed to have shot thirty men on his own; according to the second, the story was that Kyle and the other sniper had shot thirty men between them; the third said that she couldn't recall specific details."
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/03/in-the-crosshairs
Couple problems with this story.
1) The roof of the Superdome was compromised by the storm. It would not have been structurally sound.
2) I know a few things about long distance shooting. The top of the aforementioned building would make a horrible place to set-up for that kind of thing.
Exactly keep.
Here's my problem with the American Sniper story. I knew absolutely nothing about it until I decided to read up about Kyle because I was considering going to see the movie. What I ran into was an overwhelming amount of articles from various publications that basically picked apart this man's stories. It was so lopsided (I couldn't find a single article defending his stories) I couldn't pass it off as the doings of a liberal media who despise war heroes like Kyle. I have no doubt he performed honorably on the battlefield. But this guy was troubled. If he lied about these stories, how much of his book is sensationalized?
But the deeper issue...and I think it's coming through with herdman a little in his defense of Kyle...is that we allow our thinking, what we believe to be true, to be influenced by our political beliefs. We want to believe Kyle because he and his story represent the values of our own belief system. So when when Jesse Ventura wins his trial...one that has has been historically difficult to win....and wins it with quick deliberation, then there must have been overwhelming evidence supporting him.
It's easy to just discredit Ventura by calling him a pos (and maybe he is), but that doesn't make him wrong in this case. A jury obviously thought so. This all gets back to my often repeated mantra...when we subscribe to a certain ideology we can only see the world in black and white. That world forces us to categorically support everything that credits our world view and categorically deny everything that doesn't. That's dishonest thinking.
The evidence supporting the fact that Kyle told a bunch of lies appears overwhelming. That shouldn't be ignored because we have the need to hold him up as a hero.
Here's my problem with the American Sniper story. I knew absolutely nothing about it until I decided to read up about Kyle because I was considering going to see the movie. What I ran into was an overwhelming amount of articles from various publications that basically picked apart this man's stories. It was so lopsided (I couldn't find a single article defending his stories) I couldn't pass it off as the doings of a liberal media who despise war heroes like Kyle. I have no doubt he performed honorably on the battlefield. But this guy was troubled. If he lied about these stories, how much of his book is sensationalized?
But the deeper issue...and I think it's coming through with herdman a little in his defense of Kyle...is that we allow our thinking, what we believe to be true, to be influenced by our political beliefs. We want to believe Kyle because he and his story represent the values of our own belief system. So when when Jesse Ventura wins his trial...one that has has been historically difficult to win....and wins it with quick deliberation, then there must have been overwhelming evidence supporting him.
It's easy to just discredit Ventura by calling him a pos (and maybe he is), but that doesn't make him wrong in this case. A jury obviously thought so. This all gets back to my often repeated mantra...when we subscribe to a certain ideology we can only see the world in black and white. That world forces us to categorically support everything that credits our world view and categorically deny everything that doesn't. That's dishonest thinking.
The evidence supporting the fact that Kyle told a bunch of lies appears overwhelming. That shouldn't be ignored because we have the need to hold him up as a hero.
Exactly. No sniper would go up there. One you might fall through the roof. Two, you angles for shooting would not be ideal at all. A sniper would pick many other building tops or locations.Originally posted by wvkeeper(HN):
Couple problems with this story.
1) The roof of the Superdome was compromised by the storm. It would not have been structurally sound.
2) I know a few things about long distance shooting. The top of the aforementioned building would make a horrible place to set-up for that kind of thing.
Plus, I don't think they would snip people for stealing Air Jordans and TV's.
Urban myth.
I'm not sure I understand your position herdman. Of course the stories aren't true. The killing of looters, the gunning down two supposed carjackers, and the Ventura story all show overwhelming evidence that they didn't happen the way Kyle portrayed them to numerous witnesses. Are you saying these are made up stories to discredit Kyle?
Some of that GK. Some.of male bravado over beers. Ventura should have just.let it be. Kyle was respected from what I can tell. Some stories get fabricated and enlarged. Kyle was a good man from all accounts.
The bigger problem is the navy has turned the navy seals into a marketing tool.
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The bigger problem is the navy has turned the navy seals into a marketing tool.
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I'm just thinking that saying you took out 30 people from the top of the Superdome is a little more than bravado. But there's no doubt that this guy did some good. He spent a lot of time and money working with soldiers with PTSD. In fact he was killed by a soldier who suffered the disorder on a gun range. He wasn't all bad. But I try very hard to see these things for what they are and not allow my ideology to blind the truth. Too many people have been sanitized by nationalism giving us a false sense of truth with history.
Was it ever verified that he ever actually claimed to have sniped from the superdome? I'd only ever heard it told as a second hand story.
I tend feel the same way as GK. I saw the movie the other night, not knowing anything about his story. It was good, so I read up on it the following day, and I was skeptical about some of the things he claimed, or was credited to have claimed.
That is my point. Did he ever actually say it or was it other people?
This post was edited on 1/19 5:10 PM by i am herdman
I looked some more and I can't find a direct quote from him about it, just that he got drunk one night and told a story to some other guys. I don't know if he made it up, the other guys made it up (as people are apt to do) or what, but I wouldn't hold it against him.
Haha. Might as well get shitfaced in that situation.Originally posted by -CarlHungus-:
Thank God he didn't snipe this dude. He's an internet treasure.
I don't care if the guy told a million lies when he got back. What he did while in the service is well documented, and what he did, I believe, gives him more than a little leeway to be all kinds of F'ed up when he comes home. I don't care how badass you are, watching at least 160 people drop through a sniper scope, and knowing you are the sole reason they dropped, is a hell of a heavy burden to carry. I'm sure he was just dealing with it the best way he could. If saying you beat up Jesse Ventura helps him cope, who cares.
I know one thing, I'm glad there are guys like him out there to do the kind of things I would like to think I could do mentally, but I know I probably couldn't.
I know one thing, I'm glad there are guys like him out there to do the kind of things I would like to think I could do mentally, but I know I probably couldn't.
I don't really disagree with what you're saying banker. That's why I said I never questioned this guys valor on the battlefield. But that doesn't mean I'm going to buy into the Hollywood hype surrounding him. The wars obviously left him with a heavy burden to carry. So I can forgive his indiscretions. Just don't expect me to buy into lies because he was a good soldier. I can both appreciate his value AND not condone his behavior. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
What lies GK? Second hand stories. He had an altercation with ventura. Ventura was a baby and sued him and then his widow. Ventura said it was not as bad as written. Ok but there was an altercation.
Are you really buying into the super dome stuff? A second hand stories.
Kyle is respected in the veteran and special operations community. Ventura is known as a piece of shit. If kyle was making up stories then he would not have been well received in the community in which he served. That is a fact.
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Are you really buying into the super dome stuff? A second hand stories.
Kyle is respected in the veteran and special operations community. Ventura is known as a piece of shit. If kyle was making up stories then he would not have been well received in the community in which he served. That is a fact.
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"I laid him out," he writes. "Tables flew. Stuff happened. Scruff Face ended up on the floor."
In the deposition, videotaped a year before his death, Chris Kyle said he could not remember who told him that Ventura had hit his head when he fell to the sidewalk, could not recall how he learned that Ventura had a black eye, and conceded that tables did not go "flying" during the 2006 confrontation in a bar near San Diego, which he described in his book "American Sniper."
And then there's this story:
That sense of superhuman toughness perhaps led him to tell stories reporters couldn't confirm. One involved a cold January morning at a gas station southwest of Dallas. Two armed men, he said, approached him and told him to hand over the keys to his black F350. "I told them I would get them the keys," he said.
But was it? Reporters, including the New Yorker's Nicholas Schmidle, called some of the nearby county sheriffs and none of them knew of it. "I went to every single gas station [nearby]," Mooney explained. "I talked to every single law enforcement out there, all the Texas rangers - and there's no evidence whatsoever."
The Fort Worth Star-Telegram had no better luck. "We checked with the medical examiner's office, which reported no such deaths in Cleburne in January 2009."
Again, some type of altercation occurred between Ventura and Kyle. What kind of man sues a dead man or widow over a barroom fight between former service members.
The other stuff is he said she said, urban legend. Kyle told me this, Kyle told me that. Maybe he was making it up to mess with people.
The other stuff is he said she said, urban legend. Kyle told me this, Kyle told me that. Maybe he was making it up to mess with people.
The bigger picture is that liberal and those who are soft on guns, war on terror, and sheep don't like this kind of movie.
he sued an alive man for valid reasons. kyle just happened to pass away prior to the day in court. as gk has hit on, it's almost impossible to win lawsuits like this, but yet ventura won it, easily.
the other stuff isn't he said, said. kyle told journalists, on the record, that this stuff happened and there is no factual evidence to back it up.
I certainly admire his courage just like I do all of our veterans that have served. He has done more than some and less than others. I read his book a couple of years ago, its really not that great of a read in my opinion. I will see the movie, but I'm afraid its being made out to be something greater than it is because Fox News is all over it and promoting it and him as a bigger than life hero. Again, much respect to the dude for his service and going into that hell hole over there and performing his job at a very high level.
The Rogue Warrior is a much better read, that's the autobiography of Richard Marcinko, one of the original SEALs. His book would make an awesome movie, that was one crazy SOB!!!!
The Rogue Warrior is a much better read, that's the autobiography of Richard Marcinko, one of the original SEALs. His book would make an awesome movie, that was one crazy SOB!!!!
Ventura got punched and got his feelings hurt because the Seals shunned him, as nearly the rest of the military has.
They even said he wasn't a real Seal. Which,
He got pissed. Don't win these things often? Hell,OJ Simpson got off. Ventura got pissed because his tough guy image was hurt and maybe he was cash strapped.
The other stuff might be made up for all I know. Maybe he did
make it up or fabricate it. Doesn't change the fact that he did some dirty work for his country and did it well.
Again, the bigger issue is the Navy needs to get these guys to shut up and be the silent professionals. It has become a cultural thing within their community(it appears).
This post was edited on 1/20 9:40 AM by i am herdman
This post was edited on 1/20 11:44 AM by i am herdman
They even said he wasn't a real Seal. Which,
He got pissed. Don't win these things often? Hell,OJ Simpson got off. Ventura got pissed because his tough guy image was hurt and maybe he was cash strapped.
The other stuff might be made up for all I know. Maybe he did
make it up or fabricate it. Doesn't change the fact that he did some dirty work for his country and did it well.
Again, the bigger issue is the Navy needs to get these guys to shut up and be the silent professionals. It has become a cultural thing within their community(it appears).
This post was edited on 1/20 9:40 AM by i am herdman
This post was edited on 1/20 11:44 AM by i am herdman
Ventura didn't sue him because Kyle claimed he punched him. He sued him because Kyle claimed he punched him after he (Ventura) mouthed off about SEALS deserving to die. That claim by Kyle (who was well respected) caused Ventura to become an outcast in the SEAL community and caused him significant financial problems. There was overwhelming evidence the incident never happened.
